At This Point In The Season, Has the Flacco/Ryan Debate Been Answered?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1351615341' post='1206173']


Brady throwing for 500 certainly would've been remembered as one of the best SB performances that did not result in a win. But you're right, the team that won gets the real glory. Still I'm not talking about statistical performances in the playoffs (let's be real, we've won in spite of Flacco at times). The fact that the opponents are tougher in the NFC playoff picture is a huge reason for Ryan's lack of success. Sure, he hasn't played up to par once he's gotten his team there, but the fact remains.

If you switch it around, 6 games vs. CAR, TB, NO...I'd say we go 4-2 on average every year. Those are three pretty darn weak defenses, and pretty much a one-way ticket to a top-4 playoff seeding for the Falcons. But they are the same, athletic-type defenses that seem to give the Ravens trouble.

Now, Ryan against CLE, PIT, CIN...I'd imagine he averages the same record, maybe even 5-1.

As far as the divisions that Flacco and Ryan are in, pretty comparable. When it comes to the playoff opponents, Ryan has the tougher path usually.
[/quote]that's totally utterly incorrect.

[jaege]

I think to really answer that question, someone needs to win a SB, after having a killer season, or having a killer season after the win.

[funky141]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1351472151' post='1205208']
i really like what Deion Sanders said a few moments ago about QB's and their "weapons." he stated; [i][b]"a lot of people say; "we have weapons, we have weapons. you don't have weapons unless you have a quarterback! you really don't! because the quarterback ensures your weapons!"[/b][/i]

that being said; we know who Ryan throws to (i.e. Gonzalez, Jones and White etc.) BUT how about Flacco? he throws to: Boldin, Torrey, Jones, Pitta, Dickson and Rice. not bad weapons either. so, what is the difference? sure, we can say the system, the dome (lol), the o-line or the defense etc. but imo, it seems like it will always come back to the QB himself! that's the difference!

~Mili
[/quote]

Agree, the QB makes the WR.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='funky141' timestamp='1351618765' post='1206206']


Agree, the QB makes the WR.
[/quote]
Then Stafford is the best QB bc of CJ. Julio Jones is a freak of nature, and white would be good with any QB. Yes, the QB throws the ball, but the rWR makes the play

[Purple Punishment]

Looking at these posts, it seems like you guys are downplaying Matt Ryan because of his weapons and not necessarily his progression a a QB. I'm a Ravens fan first but Ryan is "developing" into a much better QB than Flacco. You can argue playoff wins all day but when it comes down to it. The player Ryan is compared to Flacco, Ryan is ahead.

You can't damn a man for his team making sacrifices to solidify their receiving corps to make him a better QB.

Ryan rarely forces throws anymore, he doesn't overthrow very much either. These are two big struggles Joe has been dealing with not to mention going through his progressions when the going gets tough. I'm not a Ryan fan but let's not be homers and call it what it is. He's better than Joe but not leaps and bounds better.......yet

[funky141]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1351620823' post='1206219']
Then Stafford is the best QB bc of CJ. Julio Jones is a freak of nature, and white would be good with any QB. Yes, the QB throws the ball, but the rWR makes the play
[/quote]

Is Stafford the best this year? You just strengthen the point.

[berad]

[quote name='funky141' timestamp='1351622060' post='1206228']
Is Stafford the best this year? You just strengthen the point.
[/quote]

His point was that Megatron was a great WR before Stafford. Thus, Stafford didn't "make" him.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1351623057' post='1206233']


His point was that Megatron was a great WR before Stafford. Thus, Stafford didn't "make" him.
[/quote]I think his point was since Megatron is the best wide receiver in the league, if the qb makes the wr then Stafford is the best qb in the league.

[berad]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351623811' post='1206238']
I think his point was since Megatron is the best wide receiver in the league, if the qb makes the wr then Stafford is the best qb in the league.
[/quote]

Which is false because Megatron was already established. I think I misunderstood somewhere

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1351626731' post='1206275']


Which is false because Megatron was already established. I think I misunderstood somewhere
[/quote]who knows. What matters is, qbs don't make wrs. They can help them no doubt, but they don't make them

[The Raven]

[quote name='funky141' timestamp='1351618765' post='1206206']
Agree, the QB makes the WR.
[/quote]

No. Larry Fitz had insane numbers last year with Kolb and Skelton throwing him the ball. The QB most certainly does not make the WR.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351623811' post='1206238']
I think his point was since Megatron is the best wide receiver in the league, if the qb makes the wr then Stafford is the best qb in the league.
[/quote]
Yep, that was my point. Look at Fitz, VJax, Moss, ect ect

[jazz1988]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1351620823' post='1206219']
[b]Then Stafford is the best QB bc of CJ. Julio Jones is a freak of nature, and white would be good with any QB[/b]. Yes, the QB throws the ball, but the rWR makes the play
[/quote]

all three of those guys may still be solid with any quarterback but its no denying the fact that a player like Calvin Johnson had his best year stat wise with a full year of Matthew Stafford throwing to him . Rodney White has had his best years stats wise since Matt Ryan became his quarterback

[jazz1988]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351627956' post='1206286']
No. Larry Fitz had insane numbers last year with Kolb and Skelton throwing him the ball. The QB most certainly does not make the WR.
[/quote]

there could be a solid argument to that but i definately think Larry Fitz would be more dangerous with Kurt Warner at quarterback than Kolb or Skelton.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='jazz1988' timestamp='1351636389' post='1206376']


there could be a solid argument to that but i definately think Larry Fitz would be more dangerous with Kurt Warner at quarterback than Kolb or Skelton.
[/quote]no doubt he would probably be better with a better quarterback. But a better quarterback wouldn't make him. Wide receivers are players themselves, they have their own talents, some of them are elite talents, that shine no matter who the quarterback is, some are very good that play well regardless, but can be made elite with very good quarterback.

Then you have others that are the just what you see is what you get.

If anything a wide receiver is made more by their coordinator than the QB. If a coord doesn't call plays to get them in the nest positions it won't matter how good the quarterback is.

Atlantas receivers IMO are better than ours. But what really sets them apart in my opinion is the routes they are asked to run, they be wide open a hell of a lot. While our WRs, have a contested catch 90 percent of the time. They wouldn't look the same in our scheme, while our wide receivers would look a hell of a lot better in their scheme.

Joe has been great a couple games. Awful a couple more. And had a respectable game against the browns. That's his main issue. The top elite quarterbacks, and even Matt Ryan don't have bad games as often as joe, Ryan's had one awful one this year. Ryan is more consistent, but can he step up when it matters in the playoffs. So far he hasn't, if he can play well and take Atl deep I the playoffs ill concede he has took that next step, because for him that's what he needed to do, and for joe it was to be more consistent and so far he hasn't been.

So until after the season and we either see joe get consistent, or Matt Ryan make a name for himself in the playoffs, I still don't feel you can truly separate the two. You can't just look at stats etc and say one is better than the other. They do different things and are in different schemes. What will answer the question is who has Improved and fixed that main burning question from last year to the next. Joe thus far hasn't, Ryan hasn't had his chance yet.

To speak on joe alone here, if this inconsistency keeps up ill myself even begin to have doubts, but not to the point I'd cut bait with him. I'd just be in the tag him camp and give him a year under a new o cord and see how it plays out and if he's still inconsistent well then we will be in a better position to sign him long term cheaper, or if he improves you can fully justify paying him huge money. Either way he will be our QB, they don't grow on trees. We just may have to live with the fact he can look the best QB in th league for three weeks, then look like the worst for a couple of weeks, due to more than just his own play.

[PurpleCityLights]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1351469968' post='1205191']
Everyone knows the story how they came in together, constantly compared, etc. I think the debate raged on who was better because they both have winning overall records. Joe is set apart by his postseason record.

With the way Ryan has played, it seems this season may answer, once and for all, who is the better QB. I personally don't like the Falcons and hate to see them winning. It also disappoints me to see Ryan having success when Joe is struggling. I asked myself if I could see Flacco making some of those plays.

I realize they have very different supporting casts. So.....has this question been finally answered?
[/quote]


Ryan doesn't have Cam for his OC....

[ravefan52]

Hasnt won a playoff game and has White, Jones, and Gonzalez

[jimmypowder]

I'll give Ryan the nod over Joe when he finally plays well in a playoff game .

He has been atrocious when the pressure mounts
in playoff games

[ellicottraven]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351565531' post='1205951']
Oh yeah, because all that rah rah stuff is a clear indicator of a player's passion. Makes sense.

Your second comment about policing the offense is just wrong. Just wrong!!! He said NUMEROUS times in the off season he [i][u]wanted more control of the offense.[/u][/i] Guess I'm the only who read those quotes.



It happens so often too! It's funny when you get negged for stating truths or reasonably defended statements.
[/quote] What's stopping him? Cam says the same thing too right? So what exactly do you suppose is happening then? Enrolling other comments to support your view does not make you right... Again this exchange is making me sound like a Joe Flacco hater which I am not, but I do believe Flacco has to look at his game time improvements more carefully. The only problem I see is when Flacco does badly to start a game, he seems to cave in just wanting to get it over with so he can start afresh the next game. You can disagree all you want, but that is what I see!

[ellicottraven]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351565369' post='1205949']
So are you one of those guys who thinks passion = "go team, rah rah" yelling and screaming? Because that is not what passion is.
[/quote] I gave you a positive check so you can now explain your version of "passion". Enlighten me!

[The Raven]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1351641881' post='1206421']
[b]What's stopping him?[/b] Cam says the same thing too right? So what exactly do you suppose is happening then? Enrolling other comments to support your view does not make you right... Again this exchange is making me sound like a Joe Flacco hater which I am not, but I do believe Flacco has to look at his game time improvements more carefully. The only problem I see is when Flacco does badly to start a game, he seems to cave in just wanting to get it over with so he can start afresh the next game. You can disagree all you want, but that is what I see!
[/quote]

Obviously the coaching staff. You're also in the minority of people who seem to think he's not a leader of the offense.

[reediddy]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351617287' post='1206194']
that's totally utterly incorrect.
[/quote]

Thanks for that gem. Care to explain or is that too difficult for you?

[SideStep77]

I still think it comes down to wins when it really counts. Joe has 5 Postseason wins (should have been 6 with the game at NE last year). Matt Ryan has the big 0. Who do you want leading your team in the playoffs? I would choose Joe.

[funky141]

I think both (Flacco/Ryan) are pretty darn good NFL QBs. Trying to debate who is better is laughable in my opinion.
Both possess great arms, pocket awareness, IQ's to the ceiling and so on.

[Hardbaugh]

One guy is in the MVP debate the other isn't. Case closed.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='funky141' timestamp='1351702949' post='1206669']
I think both (Flacco/Ryan) are pretty darn good NFL QBs. Trying to debate who is better is laughable in my opinion.
Both possess great arms, pocket awareness, IQ's to the ceiling and so on.
[/quote]matt Ryan hasnt a great arn but he appears a lot smarter in the football sense than Joe.

[BirdWatcher]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351710986' post='1206723']
matt Ryan hasnt a great arn but he appears a lot smarter in the football sense than Joe.
[/quote]

He's probably been better coached.

[flynismo]

[quote name='funky141' timestamp='1351702949' post='1206669']
I think both (Flacco/Ryan) are pretty darn good NFL QBs. Trying to debate who is better is laughable in my opinion.
Both possess great arms, pocket awareness, IQ's to the ceiling and so on.
[/quote]

Just like the Brady / Manning debate, just on a much lesser scale
(I'm with you funky, I think Manning wins that hands down)...

[Finally]

The only way to win this debate is to stop having it. We are not even in the same conference as you guys so does it matter? There have been periods of time where Flacco looked better and periods where Ryan has looked better but it is an apples to oranges comparison. What can be said is that they both help their teams win games. I like to follow your team as much as it is possible but I really hate seeing so much hatred for Ryan who has done nothing to you outside of winning a single game.

A couple of good games and Flacco will be back in the MVP conversation again. Ryan was out of it after the Raiders game when his QBR took a hit. Being that Ryan is a Falcon and we don't get a lot of media attention normally I would not make Ryan a favorite anyway. As one analyst described us, we are the quietest 7-0 team.

We are not rivals. I have no problem with be pleased at the Ravens and Flacco's success. The QBs we should be hating are Sanchez, Tebow, Vick, and Romo for stealing 90 percent of the media attention. Or maybe we should just hate the media for not properly covering our teams.

Ryan doesn't have to be better or worse for Flacco to be great. He can do that on his own.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351710986' post='1206723']
matt Ryan hasnt a great arn but he appears a lot smarter in the football sense than Joe.
[/quote]

I'd like to point out that their first 3 years in the league were pretty similar, and Ryan's only really taken a leap forward this year, when he got a better OC. Alex Smith made a similar transformation when he got Jim Harbaugh, which proves that scheme and coaching has a lot more to do with a quarterback's success than people want to give it credit for.