At This Point In The Season, Has the Flacco/Ryan Debate Been Answered?

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351552107' post='1205827']
if the debate has been answered, surely it's decided?
[/quote]

It hasn't been decided or answered because we are still in the middle of the season.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351553161' post='1205850']
I'm just trying to say that we've run these topics in to the ground. We've debated, argued, and discussed those five guys endlessly and it's just beating a dead horse at this point.
[/quote]

I won't argue because that is certainly true. But would you rather read doom and gloom and fire cam threads lol?

[The Raven]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1351553366' post='1205856']
I won't argue because that is certainly true. But would you rather read doom and gloom and fire cam threads lol?
[/quote]

Cameron was one of the guys I originally mentioned.

At least the doom and gloom threads would give me a laugh!

[RavensPunkXVX]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1351552879' post='1205844']
Why because you got owned for saying the supporting cast argument was irrelevant?
[/quote]

Is that what you called "owned?" LOL. No because the question, "is Matt Ryan better than Joe Flacco" is ignorant. Who cares? So what if Matt Ryan is better than Flacco? Haha. I could care less. We get it done in the post season.

You can say that Roddy/Julio/AG is better than our trio, but that's not my opinion. They're not so terribly bad that Matt Ryan couldn't do well with them. So, no, I didn't get "owned." I got people telling me that the conditions are more favorable for Ryan to succeed and that they think their trio is better than ours.

I'm not saying anybody is wrong, but you guys are acting like I committed murder. It's my opinion, that's it. Guess that's my confidence speaking for our core of guys on offense.

[berad]

This thread is getting a little touchy/personal, keep it cool everyone.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1351554273' post='1205866']
This thread is getting a little touchy/personal, keep it cool everyone.
[/quote]
Yes, I ask of this too.
Please, we can all be biased in a nice way.....

[BMOREHAWAII]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1351542952' post='1205673']
Perhaps he would have gotten better no matter who was throwing to him. Players like Torrey Smith and Dennis Pitta have become playmakers with Flacco throwing to them, does he get credit?
[b]Pitta is Heap 2.0 and Torry Smith is meant for any deep throw. NOT SAYING that i don't enjoy the Flacco deep ball as i believe it is the most accurate in the NFL.[/b]


Does it matter if you have 0 playoff wins, 0 points in 2011, and have played poorly in every game?
[b]I can recall 1 performance that i remember Flacco in the playoffs and that was against a 31st ranked NE. Besides that it's all running game/defense and game managing that took us to the championship games.[/b]

[b]example. Trent Dilfer won playoff games and a Lombardi.[/b]


Tom Brady is a better QB than Flacco, idk if anyone would argue otherwise.
[b]Good QB's don't need excuses as to why another one is better. You could argue Dalton/RG3/Roethlisberger/Peyton Manning/Eli Manning/Jay Cutler etc. are doing well without the "he doesn't have a dome" trick.[/b]


What have RG3/Dalton 'got done' that Flacco has not? Also, RG3 has only played through the [i]harsh [/i]months of September and October so let's give it some time.
[b]If you are asking who is the better QB, i'd take RG3 anyday of the week over Flacco. Versatility, armstrength, decision making, etc. All with horrible receivers, and an over rated run game.[/b]



The Ravens run less than every team in the NFL except for New Orleans and Tennessee. Flacco isn't leaning on it. That's something you should address with Cam Cameron.
[b]Flacco has been leaning on the run game since he came into the NFL and it took us places. The year everyone cries "pass" we can't beat defenses not even ranked 10th overall.[/b]

Who can argue that Flacco is having a better season than Ryan, though? He isn't.

[/quote]
[size=5][b]Before anyone starts pantie bunching, i wasn't trying to say that i'm stating facts that was strictly my OPINION.[/b][/size]

[admartian]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1351552948' post='1205846']
What I'm trying to say is this.
Fantasy
Ryan>Flacco
Real NFL
Flacco>Ryan.
[/quote]I agree with this. Sadly, in today's NFL fanscape; FF is more important than real life football.

Which is why guys like Cutler (not always pretty stats) get demonised (that and his cigarette smoking antics on the field... ).

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1351551768' post='1205814']
WHo said it would decide? I mentioned "at this point" looking at things.
[/quote]

Again, there is one advantage Ryan has that Joe doesn't - his front office decided their previous offensive coordinator wasn't getting it done and changed things up - which is funny since all of us I'm sure would have killed to have the Falcons offense last year. But the OC change is the biggest difference between that offense last year and this year. Joe has had the same guy for 5 years, and every year for the last 3 we've all been saying Cam is certainly not helping Joe with his lack of diversity in the playcalling department. This would have been the perfect year to change things given we didn't have to renew Cam's contract at the end of the season last year. But truly I don't think we'll ever know how good Joe can be, because I believe what Cam is doing here doesn't fit what this team, and more importantly, Joe, needs to succeed. So I can never say the argument has been settled when the Falcons upgraded a position by replacing a guy who everyone here already thought was better than what we had. The only thing I can say is that whatever offense we need to win a Superbowl, Cam Cameron, with any quarterback he might have, can not run it. Case in point: Atlanta has 7 receivers who have caught at least 10 passes. We have 5, including our BLOCKING fullback who has no business catching the ball. Ed Dickson had a great season last year, and he's totally been phased out this year. Tandon Doss has shown great skills, but he's hardly ever on the field. Jacoby Jones was supposed to be that third guy, but how can he be that third guy when he's not even on the field most of the time?

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='admartian' timestamp='1351560659' post='1205911']
I agree with this. Sadly, in today's NFL fanscape; FF is more important than real life football.

Which is why guys like Cutler (not always pretty stats) get demonised (that and his cigarette smoking antics on the field... ).
[/quote]
Haha, ;p. Romo and Cutler man...
Sorry, I just lost big in Fantasy. Damn you Aaron Rodgers... I mean, oh well.

[ellicottraven]

I think Joe trumps Ryan in postseason play. Ryan trumps Joe with statistics and certain intangibles (passion, ability to diagnose defensive weaknesses and exploit them, and better leadership). I see a lot of Ravens' fans saying they'll pick Joe over Ryan regardless, since Joe has a postseason winning record if I am not mistaken. However, we all need to keep in mind that typically good defensive teams (not always) fare better in postseason play. I am not suggesting that is the only reason Joe won several postseason games, but it was a factor definitely.

So, I think one has to look at the big picture and these two in totality before coming to a conclusion as to who is the better QB. The league wide consensus is not even close since they have Ryan as the better QB running away. However, I do believe Joe may be a better fit for us. Not as intelligent as Ryan perhaps, but definitely has better skill...

[The Raven]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1351564582' post='1205941']
I think Joe trumps Ryan in postseason play. Ryan trumps Joe with statistics and certain intangibles (passion, ability to diagnose defensive weaknesses and exploit them, and better leadership). I see a lot of Ravens' fans saying they'll pick Joe over Ryan regardless, since Joe has a postseason winning record if I am not mistaken. However, we all need to keep in mind that typically good defensive teams (not always) fare better in postseason play. I am not suggesting that is the only reason Joe won several postseason games, but it was a factor definitely.

So, I think one has to look at the big picture and these two in totality before coming to a conclusion as to who is the better QB. The league wide consensus is not even close since they have Ryan as the better QB running away. However, I do believe Joe may be a better fit for us. Not as intelligent as Ryan perhaps, but definitely has better skill...
[/quote]

On what basis does Ryan have more passion than Flacco? There is no concrete evidence to support that.

On his ability to diagnose defensive weaknesses, Flacco has that ability. Ryan is better at it, but that can easily be attributed to Ryan having a competent offensive staff. Teaching Joe how to do that better is a job for Cameron and the QB coach.

[ellicottraven]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351564839' post='1205943']
On what basis does Ryan have more passion than Flacco? There is no concrete evidence to support that.

On his ability to diagnose defensive weaknesses, Flacco has that ability. Ryan is better at it, but that can easily be attributed to Ryan having a competent offensive staff. Teaching Joe how to do that better is a job for Cameron and the QB coach.
[/quote]Have you watched Ryan on the NFL network and during games? Clearly you haven't... that guy is fired up on the sideline taking teammates to task and showing incredible passion! Joe's personality is different in that he believes it isn't his responsibility to police his offense.... not a bad idea, but so far not very effective.
Again, this has nothing to do with my belief in Joe....

[flynismo]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351564839' post='1205943']
On what basis does Ryan have more passion than Flacco? There is no concrete evidence to support that.

On his ability to diagnose defensive weaknesses, Flacco has that ability. Ryan is better at it, but that can easily be attributed to Ryan having a competent offensive staff. Teaching Joe how to do that better is a job for Cameron and the QB coach.
[/quote]

I love how ignorant and petty certain people are. Negged twice for giving a reasonable response just because it is not what they want to hear? Life must suck for them.

To stay on topic, let's see Ryan play in this division, with this OL, this OC and these recievers, and then we'd be talking about what a noodle armed bust he is.

[flynismo]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1351565250' post='1205946']
Have you watched Ryan on the NFL network and during games? Clearly you haven't... that guy is fired up on the sideline taking teammates to task and showing incredible passion! Joe's personality is different in that he believes it isn't his responsibility to police his offense.... not a bad idea, but so far not very effective.
Again, this has nothing to do with my belief in Joe....
[/quote]

So are you one of those guys who thinks passion = "go team, rah rah" yelling and screaming? Because that is not what passion is.

[jdynamite]

The fact is that Flacco and Ryan should have never really been compared to each other, they have been lumped together only because both did they unthinkable at the time and won 11 games as a Starting Rookie QB ( that stat doesn't say how much they contributed to wins ) after that season the media began to lump them together quite frequently, but in reality during draft time no one debated on Ryan vs Flacco, it's not the same as the Rivers/ E.Manning debate of that year ( which now looks like Eli has won that debate oddly enough Big Ben never gets mentioned and he was drafted in the same draft as Rivers and Eli)

Rodgers and Alex smith being lumped together makes sense because many people thought Rodgers might be #1 pick that year and Smith was chosen Rodgers plunges down the boards.

Stating the obvious : No Ryan hasn't won a playoff game yet, but in his defense all 3 teams he lost to made it to the Super Bowl that season 2008 Cardinals, 2010 Packers, 2011 Giants.
Too me Ryan makes quicker decisions within the pocket, he is more decisive but once again some of that has to do with play-calling and the offensive line protection.

[The Raven]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1351565250' post='1205946']
Have you watched Ryan on the NFL network and during games? Clearly you haven't... that guy is fired up on the sideline taking teammates to task and showing incredible passion! Joe's personality is different in that he believes it isn't his responsibility to police his offense.... not a bad idea, but so far not very effective.
Again, this has nothing to do with my belief in Joe....
[/quote]

Oh yeah, because all that rah rah stuff is a clear indicator of a player's passion. Makes sense.

Your second comment about policing the offense is just wrong. Just wrong!!! He said NUMEROUS times in the off season he wanted more control of the offense. Guess I'm the only who read those quotes.

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351565281' post='1205948']
I love how ignorant and petty certain people are. Negged twice for giving a reasonable response just because it is not what they want to hear? Life must suck for them.

To stay on topic, let's see Ryan play in this division, with this OL, this OC and these recievers, and then we'd be talking about what a noodle armed bust he is.
[/quote]

It happens so often too! It's funny when you get negged for stating truths or reasonably defended statements.

[Purple Nurple]

Mobile Skin. No rep system. Just sayin.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Purple Nurple' timestamp='1351565874' post='1205956']
Mobile Skin. No rep system. Just sayin.
[/quote]

I see no issue with the rep system. It doesn't bother me; I just like to see how many people aren't reasonable enough to see my posts through.

[berad]

"Passion"? This again? Joe shows his leadership every Sunday, many players have said they looked up to him on O, coaches have reiterated that. I don't care whether he does or not, it doesn't affect how he throws the ball.

By comparison, Philip Rivers is chock-full of [i]passion [/i]but he's still playing like hot garbage

[Purple Nurple]

Yeah. The Rivers argument seals the deal about vocal passion being BS.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351565369' post='1205949']


So are you one of those guys who thinks passion = "go team, rah rah" yelling and screaming? Because that is not what passion is.
[/quote]
That's motivation. Passion is what Tom Cruise did that one time.... It's when you speak your opinion to an extent,
Por ejemplo...
Bill orliley.
The guy has a temper, but says it bc he believes it.
Phillip Rivers is full of passion.... But isn't even a top 10 QB anymore. Tim Tebow often screams at his teammates, to motivate him, my top ten list btw is this

Rodgers
Brees
Eli
Peyton
Brady(elite stops here)
Rottenberger
Flacco
Ryan
Cutler
Stafford[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351565281' post='1205948']


I love how ignorant and petty certain people are. Negged twice for giving a reasonable response just because it is not what they want to hear? Life must suck for them.

To stay on topic, let's see Ryan play in this division, with this OL, this OC and these recievers, and then we'd be talking about what a noodle armed bust he is.
[/quote]
Life does suck sometimes fly... I'm not even 16(I actually might be the youngest member on the forum) and I know that. And Ryan btw doesn't have a noodle arm. His arm strength is above average, Flaccos is the strongest in the NFL. It's not even close. Oops another up for Flacco, better arm and athlete...... And believe me, I said plenty of reasonable things on here and got negged a lot. Bout Ryan being in the division...... I lol'd haha. Not a bust, but only average like Dalton at best. Flacco still puts up near identical stats to Ryan in this crap system. Aside from TD's of course. Imagine what Flacco would do in that system. And fly, I remember that draft, I asked my father(before) who would be the better qb. He said Ryan is the safer pick, and more of a system qb, Flacco has the chance to be an all pro, regardless of what system he is in. I was shocked when we got him..... I was happy tho. And to the whole "clutch thing". Flacco has come back from 30 point losses. As I said earlier, the Vikings, the cards, and other comebacks, Pit,Pit,Pit,Pats,Pats,and those are only his notable ones. His players around him were not clutch, until torrey came along. So the clutch Ryan argument is also invalid.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351564839' post='1205943']
On his ability to diagnose defensive weaknesses, Flacco has that ability. Ryan is better at it, but that can easily be attributed to Ryan having a competent offensive staff. Teaching Joe how to do that better is a job for Cameron and the QB coach.
[/quote]
When Joe audibles out of Cams system.... well, he throws for 300 yards and 3 Tds.
[b]Edit. Jk. Flacco isnt able to do that. IDK why it didn't go through earlier. [/b]Ryan is able to do this, so adavantage, Ryan..
Anyway.

[reediddy]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1351573874' post='1206007']
That's motivation. Passion is what Tom Cruise did that one time.... It's when you speak your opinion to an extent,
Por ejemplo...
Bill orliley.
The guy has a temper, but says it bc he believes it.
Phillip Rivers is full of passion.... But isn't even a top 10 QB anymore. Tim Tebow often screams at his teammates, to motivate him, my top ten list btw is this

Rodgers
Brees
Eli
Peyton
Brady(elite stops here)
Rottenberger
Flacco
Ryan
Cutler
Stafford
Life does suck sometimes fly... I'm not even 16(I actually might be the youngest member on the forum) and I know that. And Ryan btw doesn't have a noodle arm. His arm strength is above average, Flaccos is the strongest in the NFL. It's not even close. Oops another up for Flacco, better arm and athlete...... And believe me, I said plenty of reasonable things on here and got negged a lot. Bout Ryan being in the division...... I lol'd haha. Not a bust, but only average like Dalton at best. Flacco still puts up near identical stats to Ryan in this crap system. Aside from TD's of course. Imagine what Flacco would do in that system. And fly, I remember that draft, I asked my father(before) who would be the better qb. He said Ryan is the safer pick, and more of a system qb, Flacco has the chance to be an all pro, regardless of what system he is in. I was shocked when we got him..... I was happy tho. And to the whole "clutch thing". Flacco has come back from 30 point losses. As I said earlier, the Vikings, the cards, and other comebacks, Pit,Pit,Pit,Pats,Pats,and those are only his notable ones. His players around him were not clutch, until torrey came along. So the clutch Ryan argument is also invalid.
[/quote]

If you put that (elite stops here) mark at Roethlisberger, I agree. And at this point, statistically, today, Ryan is a better QB than Flacco. A HUGE function of that is his weaponry and continuity along the offensive line. Flacco's success speaks for himself; that being said, the AFC is far weaker than the NFC. Ryan has to face tougher competition come playoff time.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1351575181' post='1206017']

When Joe audibles out of Cams system.... well, he throws for 300 yards and 3 Tds.
[/quote]sometimes you post pure and utter nonsense. Joe has two checks, that's all he was given. He can't audible out of cams system.

[FerrariFan87]

Ryan has come up short in the biggest moments (playoff games), and until he wins one, I refuse to acknowledge that he's better than Flacco. Is he playing better this year? No doubt about it. Overall, though, I'll take Flacco until further notice.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351584774' post='1206037']
sometimes you post pure and utter nonsense. Joe has two checks, that's all he was given. He can't audible out of cams system.
[/quote]
I forgot to post the jk, lol. In this crappy system he aint able to do that...... Damn you iphone..... Sorry for the misunderstanding .

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1351576762' post='1206024']
If you put that (elite stops here) mark at Roethlisberger, I agree. And at this point, statistically, today, Ryan is a better QB than Flacco. A HUGE function of that is his weaponry and continuity along the offensive line. Flacco's success speaks for himself; that being said, the AFC is far weaker than the NFC. Ryan has to face tougher competition come playoff time.
[/quote]
If Brady threw for 500 yards in the SB, but still lost, would the stats be remebered, or the win by the other team? Sure, AFC is weaker, but we got to the championship twice. Once was in Flaccos Rookie year. Not his fault, whole team sucked that day. The other was at NE, where we got robbed. If Evans [b][u][i]holds on to it[/i][/u][/b], then Flacco gets to the SB. Ryan doesn't. IDC about stats. Flacco would produce better than Ryan in that bc he still produces near ID (except TD's) in a crappy system. Switch them around. Lets see what happens, bc I am scared of the Panthers, and Bucs. IDT we can stop the Saints tho...

[reediddy]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1351611593' post='1206139']
If Brady threw for 500 yards in the SB, but still lost, would the stats be remebered, or the win by the other team? Sure, AFC is weaker, but we got to the championship twice. Once was in Flaccos Rookie year. Not his fault, whole team sucked that day. The other was at NE, where we got robbed. If Evans [b][u][i]holds on to it[/i][/u][/b], then Flacco gets to the SB. Ryan doesn't. IDC about stats. Flacco would produce better than Ryan in that bc he still produces near ID (except TD's) in a crappy system. Switch them around. Lets see what happens, bc I am scared of the Panthers, and Bucs. IDT we can stop the Saints tho...
[/quote]

Brady throwing for 500 certainly would've been remembered as one of the best SB performances that did not result in a win. But you're right, the team that won gets the real glory. Still I'm not talking about statistical performances in the playoffs (let's be real, we've won in spite of Flacco at times). The fact that the opponents are tougher in the NFC playoff picture is a huge reason for Ryan's lack of success. Sure, he hasn't played up to par once he's gotten his team there, but the fact remains.

If you switch it around, 6 games vs. CAR, TB, NO...I'd say we go 4-2 on average every year. Those are three pretty darn weak defenses, and pretty much a one-way ticket to a top-4 playoff seeding for the Falcons. But they are the same, athletic-type defenses that seem to give the Ravens trouble.

Now, Ryan against CLE, PIT, CIN...I'd imagine he averages the same record, maybe even 5-1.

As far as the divisions that Flacco and Ryan are in, pretty comparable. When it comes to the playoff opponents, Ryan has the tougher path usually.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

IMHO, there's no comparison between the two. Take Mattie Ice out of the dome and let him play his home games outdoors in the wind and the rain like Frozen Joe does and see who comes out on top. I'd take Joe in a heartbeat if I needed to win one game. That being said, they are both pretty darn good. It would be interesting to see how they compare against common competition.