At This Point In The Season, Has the Flacco/Ryan Debate Been Answered?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1351522564' post='1205416']


Funny how you nit pick everything thats wrong, but all the fact remains intact. I didnt expect anything less from you or flynismo(both of you an extreme flacco homers)

Flynismo stated Flacco was sacked 50% more than Ryan. Wrong. Wonder why you didnt nit pick on that one.

Aaron rodgers has been sacked significantly more than Flacco, and rest of everything i've said are true about rodgers.

Andy Dalton was sacked 17times, while Alex Smith was sacked 18times- you see how you never mentioned that? I added Josh Freeman there because all 3 of them beat Joe Flacco in every statistical category. Thats my point.

Another point I was trying to make, Russell Wilson has nearly identical passer rating as Joe Flacco. Russel is a rookie, and Joe is a 5th tenured QB. Thats should be a troubling sign. Yet you miss another point. Typical homer's approach.
[/quote]no homerism here, Ryan is out playing flacco. I've admitted that. What is a pet hate of mine is people using incorrect stats and facts about anything. Flacco, Kruger, anyone. And your post had a lot of incorrect facts. So I called you out on them.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1351522564' post='1205416']
Funny how you nit pick everything thats wrong, but all the fact remains intact. I didnt expect anything less from you or flynismo(both of you an extreme flacco homers)

Flynismo stated Flacco was sacked 50% more than Ryan. Wrong. Wonder why you didnt nit pick on that one.

Aaron rodgers has been sacked significantly more than Flacco, and rest of everything i've said are true about rodgers.

Andy Dalton was sacked 17times, while Alex Smith was sacked 18times- you see how you never mentioned that? I added Josh Freeman there because all 3 of them beat Joe Flacco in every statistical category. Thats my point.

Another point I was trying to make, Russell Wilson has nearly identical passer rating as Joe Flacco. Russel is a rookie, and Joe is a 5th tenured QB. Thats should be a troubling sign. Yet you miss another point. Typical homer's approach.
[/quote]
You really don't think Seattle would be better if you traded flacco for Wilson? Really?

[kassaiscool]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1351516293' post='1205361']
It's not just who they've faced - the fact is for all the nonsense about Joe being carried through the playoffs by his team, Matt Ryan has been HORRIBLE in the playoffs. Look who Joe faced - 2008 Steelers won the Superbowl, 2009-2011 he faced the AFC team that got to the Superbowl. In order Joe dueled Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger again, and then had to face Brady again last year. You act like Ryan had an impossible road while Joe had the easy path. Joe has faced top 5 defenses 4-5 times in the playoffs, while Ryan in his three games has faced 1, the 2010 Packers. Yet of the 3 games he's played, the best Ryan could do was to put up a 73 quarterback rating, and that was in his first season. Joe put up QB ratings of 95 in both of his post-season games last year alone. Ryan might have better numbers in the regular season, but he can't touch Joe in the postseason. And let's not forget that one of those games last year for Joe was against the number 3 ranked Houston Texans, while Ryan faced the number 29 ranked New York Giants passing defense.Regardless of success in the regular season, by the raw numbers and the competition they've faced (defensively), Joe has been the better quarterback.

Matt Ryan - 2008 Cardinals - 22nd in passing defense regular season
2010 Packers - 2nd in passing defense regular season
2011 Giants - 29th in passing defense regular season

Joe - 2008 Titans - 9th in passing defense regular season
2008 Dolphins - 25th in passing defense regular season
2008 Steelers 1st in passing defense regular season
2009 Patriots - 12th in passing defense regular season
2009 Colts - 14th in passing defense regular season
2010 Chiefs - 17th in passing defense regular season
2010 Steelers - 12th in passing defense regular season
2011 Texans - 3rd in passing defense regular season
2011 Patriots - 31st in passing defense regular season

And this is just by yards per game allowed - has nothing to do with takeaways, opposing quarterback rating, sacks, PPG, etc., where a lot of those teams Joe faced actually look better i.e. just about every one of those teams ranked higher in PPG allowed and sacks than YPG given up through the air. Fact is, Joe has faced harder competition based on the defenses he had to face, and came out on top. Remember, the New York Giants gave up 25 points or more 7 times in 2011, including 36 to the Seattle Sehawks and Matt Ryan couldn't lead his team to a single offensive point in the Medowlands.
[/quote]
[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1351516293' post='1205361']
It's not just who they've faced - the fact is for all the nonsense about Joe being carried through the playoffs by his team, Matt Ryan has been HORRIBLE in the playoffs. Look who Joe faced - 2008 Steelers won the Superbowl, 2009-2011 he faced the AFC team that got to the Superbowl. In order Joe dueled Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger again, and then had to face Brady again last year. You act like Ryan had an impossible road while Joe had the easy path. Joe has faced top 5 defenses 4-5 times in the playoffs, while Ryan in his three games has faced 1, the 2010 Packers. Yet of the 3 games he's played, the best Ryan could do was to put up a 73 quarterback rating, and that was in his first season. Joe put up QB ratings of 95 in both of his post-season games last year alone. Ryan might have better numbers in the regular season, but he can't touch Joe in the postseason. And let's not forget that one of those games last year for Joe was against the number 3 ranked Houston Texans, while Ryan faced the number 29 ranked New York Giants passing defense.Regardless of success in the regular season, by the raw numbers and the competition they've faced (defensively), Joe has been the better quarterback.

Matt Ryan - 2008 Cardinals - 22nd in passing defense regular season
2010 Packers - 2nd in passing defense regular season
2011 Giants - 29th in passing defense regular season

Joe - 2008 Titans - 9th in passing defense regular season
2008 Dolphins - 25th in passing defense regular season
2008 Steelers 1st in passing defense regular season
2009 Patriots - 12th in passing defense regular season
2009 Colts - 14th in passing defense regular season
2010 Chiefs - 17th in passing defense regular season
2010 Steelers - 12th in passing defense regular season
2011 Texans - 3rd in passing defense regular season
2011 Patriots - 31st in passing defense regular season

And this is just by yards per game allowed - has nothing to do with takeaways, opposing quarterback rating, sacks, PPG, etc., where a lot of those teams Joe faced actually look better i.e. just about every one of those teams ranked higher in PPG allowed and sacks than YPG given up through the air. Fact is, Joe has faced harder competition based on the defenses he had to face, and came out on top. Remember, the New York Giants gave up 25 points or more 7 times in 2011, including 36 to the Seattle Sehawks and Matt Ryan couldn't lead his team to a single offensive point in the Medowlands.
[/quote]

Matt Ryan is still better to me. Matt Ryan is considered up to this point to be a favorite for MVP. Joe Flacco is being laughed at by the media for calling himself elite. Joe may or may not become elite, but as of right now he isn't. As for the Giants defense they get hot at the end of the season. They disrupted the packers offense as well.

[admartian]

If people really think our weapons are = to ATL weapons then ask yourself this. Would [b][u][i]YOU[/i][/u][/b], as the Falcons GM take a straight up trade for White, Jones and Gonzalez; in exchange for our Q, Smith and Pitta and Dickson?

I doubt it.

[Purple_ICE 81]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1351472151' post='1205208']
i really like what Deion Sanders said a few moments ago about QB's and their "weapons." he stated; [i][b]"a lot of people say; "we have weapons, we have weapons. you don't have weapons unless you have a quarterback! you really don't! because the quarterback ensures your weapons!"[/b][/i]

that being said; we know who Ryan throws to (i.e. Gonzalez, Jones and White etc.) BUT how about Flacco? he throws to: Boldin, Torrey, Jones, Pitta, Dickson and Rice. not bad weapons either. so, what is the difference? sure, we can say the system, the dome (lol), the o-line or the defense etc. but imo, it seems like it will always come back to the QB himself! that's the difference!

~Mili
[/quote]
I bet you a million bucks if you gave blaine gabbert Roddy White, Julio Jones, and Tony Gonzalez he would play 10x better. Sure elite quarterbacks can make undrafted players into all stars. BUT elite receivers can also make it easier for a lowsy QB too or make the quarterback get better. Julio Jones is the next Larry Fitzgerald, Roddy White is a monster who might make the hall of fame one day, and Tony Gonzales is pretty much already a hall of famer. When you have receivers who do their job every play like julio jones and roddy white consistantly finding separation, and Gonzales who never drops a pass (unlike our receivers who cant find separation) any quarterback with a tad bit of accuracy will have a big smile on their face. If Flacco had all those weapons and the O-line that Ryan has and the O-coordiantor that Ryan has who lets him completely run the offense...Joe would be way better.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='kassaiscool' timestamp='1351540318' post='1205626']
Matt Ryan is still better to me. Matt Ryan is considered up to this point to be a favorite for MVP. Joe Flacco is being laughed at by the media for calling himself elite. Joe may or may not become elite, but as of right now he isn't. [b]As for the Giants defense they get hot at the end of the season. They disrupted the packers offense as well.[/b]
[/quote]

Lol they got hot at the end of the season? What? 4 of their last 6 games heading into the playoffs they gave up 20 or more points, including 43 to the Saints. And they certainly DID not do a job on Rodgers. All the media talked about was the 7 wide open passes to his receivers they dropped, including 3 by Jordy Nelson, and he still finished with 2 TDs and only 1 pick. Even acknowledged Rodgers hater Skip Bayless said the following week that the Packers receivers let Rodgers down big time. The Giant defense wasn't the issue, the problem was the Packer defense was destroyed by Eli Manning and they let Ahmad Bradshaw average over 5 yards a carry on them. Did you watch that game? All the media talked about for a week was Rodgers' receivers letting him down by dropping wide open passes.

[Token]

Ryan has been the better QB this season.

I really don't know what the problem is with away games, but Flacco and the offense need to get it together in my opinion..

[BMOREHAWAII]

Why I think Ryan is better.

1.Roddy White has only gotten better since Ryan has entered the NFL, he was good before him but not as elite as he is now.

2.You can say all you want about playoffs but it doesn't matter how many wins you have post-season if you never actually make it to the SB. ATL obviously

3.Tom Brady plays in the same condition's or worse than Flacco does, why does Flacco get the "outdoor" flier.

4. Flacco has had the offense "built" around him compared to players with less experience like Dalton/RG3 who also play outdoors and have less to work with, yet still cannot find a way to get things done.

5. Matt Ryan does not claim to be "elite".

6. ATL has a horrible run game to lean on like Flacco can if need be.

Statistically, visually, obviously, actually, IMO Matt Ryan is far and away the better QB and looks like will have a better career.

[RavensPunkXVX]

[quote name='display name' timestamp='1351527935' post='1205472']
This thread is garbage.
[/quote]

Correct.

[RavensPunkXVX]

If Flacco had an O-line, some weapons, and a new offensive coordinator, he'd be the greatest.

Well, of course. You could say that with any QB, LOL. Fact is, we have what we have. Deal with it. Ryans record says 7-0, ours says 5-2.

We'll see how the playoffs pan out.

[berad]

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1351541761' post='1205657']
Why I think Ryan is better.

1.Roddy White has only gotten better since Ryan has entered the NFL, he was good before him but not as elite as he is now.[/quote]

Perhaps he would have gotten better no matter who was throwing to him. Players like Torrey Smith and Dennis Pitta have become playmakers with Flacco throwing to them, does he get credit?

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1351541761' post='1205657']
2.You can say all you want about playoffs but it doesn't matter how many wins you have post-season if you never actually make it to the SB. ATL obviously[/quote]

Does it matter if you have 0 playoff wins, 0 points in 2011, and have played poorly in every game?

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1351541761' post='1205657']
3.Tom Brady plays in the same condition's or worse than Flacco does, why does Flacco get the "outdoor" flier.[/quote]

Tom Brady is a better QB than Flacco, idk if anyone would argue otherwise.

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1351541761' post='1205657']
4. Flacco has had the offense "built" around him compared to players with less experience like Dalton/RG3 who also play outdoors and have less to work with, yet still cannot find a way to get things done.[/quote]

What have RG3/Dalton 'got done' that Flacco has not? Also, RG3 has only played through the [i]harsh [/i]months of September and October so let's give it some time.

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1351541761' post='1205657']
5. Matt Ryan does not claim to be "elite".[/quote]

Irrelevant to 'who is better'.

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1351541761' post='1205657']
6. ATL has a horrible run game to lean on like Flacco can if need be.

Statistically, visually, obviously, actually, IMO Matt Ryan is far and away the better QB and looks like will have a better career.
[/quote]

The Ravens run less than every team in the NFL except for New Orleans and Tennessee. Flacco isn't leaning on it. That's something you should address with Cam Cameron.

Who can argue that Flacco is having a better season than Ryan, though? He isn't.

[SecretAgentMan]

Well, May I also say Flacco is unlucky. I am going to take one of my favorite examples here
Remeber the Vikings game three years ago. Flacco led one hell of a comeback, where Hauska missed the damn thing.
In that game, Joe threw for 385 yards, and two TD's, against an elite D. Ray was just coming into his own, and Flacco got us down to the one twice where he pounded it in. Matt Ryan, did not play an elite D that year (not like the Vikings was back then), still had elite weapons, and his best game was 329 yards 2 TD's and an INT, against a lowley SF D.
The sophmore year here is more convincing. I know things have changed, bur Ryan has always had Tony (arguably the greatest TE ever), Rody, and elite WR.
Flacco had an aging Mason, Mark Clayton, and an injured Todd Heap. None of those guys are starting anymore.

Ryan has more TD's but who cares, Flacco has more regular season, and post season wins than Ryan does. Not only this, but this makes the "clutch factor" that Ryan has irrelevent. Flacco would have more wins, if not for inconsistent WR, and bad kickers. Ryan only has more TD'd because of his system. I don't have Joe on my fantasy team tho, so I don't care about TD's he brings it to the one, we put in Rice.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1351475916' post='1205239']
Have they ever played on a level playing field? IMO no matter what the weapons around them, every single year of their careers Matt Ryan has played an easier schedule. I hate how everyone seems to throw that out of the window when comparing the two. For four of five years he's been in the league, Joe has faced a Steelers team ranked top 5 in passing defense twice a year, and twice in the playoffs as well. I believe last year we swept the AFC North and all three of our opponents finished in the top 10 in passing defense, in fact overall I believe that of the 18 games including the playoffs Joe played last year, 13 were against teams that finished the regular season in the top 10 in passing defense. Last year three of the AFC South teams finished 20th or worse in passing defense, and none finished in the top 10. I think the only top 10 defense Brady faced until us was Pittsburgh, and he lost to them. Fact is, playing in the AFC North means just about every quarterback here will face tough secondaries and tough passing defenses. Besides, anyone think it's a coincidence that Ryan's numbers took off AFTER he got a new offensive coordinator, and this was after a lot of us thought his old one wasn't so bad.
[/quote]

While I agree with you wholeheartedly, doesn't that suggest when Flacco faces most defenses outside of the AFCN he should excel? He's had his success of course but he's struggled at very curious times. AGain, I support him and he's our QB. Just swirling these thoughts around.

[Purple Nurple]

Oh. That Vikings game. I was on my knees at the bar when we missed that FG. Ugh. Good times.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351489648' post='1205307']
BTW, Flacco has more yards than Ryan, and both have six picks. Ryan has more TD and a higher QB rating.

[b]So I'm not sure how this one season -- which we arent even halfway through yet -- is going to decide this "debate"[/b]
[/quote]

WHo said it would decide? I mentioned "at this point" looking at things.

[gabefergy]

I'd like to see Matt Ryan win a playoff game first. It's not like he hasnt had some poor showings this season either. Overall Ryan has played better, but against overall weaker competition.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='SpiderWebb21' timestamp='1351489795' post='1205310']
Listen. It is irrelevant that we sit around and point at WR's/TE's on other teams and think of excuses as to WHY Ryan is better than Flacco at this stage. We say, oh he has Julio, Roddy, TG. We have the same type of weapons. I'm sorry if you guys don't agree with that. So to sit around and say they have better weapons, it is kind of pointless, they don't.

What does come into play, considering I THINK we have the same reliable weapons is, why are we not producing? Why is Ryan producing with Julio, Roddy, and TG, but we cant with Torrey, Q, Pitta.

I get it TG is a HOF, but Pitta is pretty good as well, but at that level, but we also have Mr. Rice who is better than Turner.

I think it's larger than the "weapons." Therefore, when I say that the weapons, are "irrelevant," I'm saying we have the same type of firepower, but we're not producing as Matt Ryan is. Does that mean Ryan is better? Are they calling up better plays? Is their offensive line better?

I'm saying our weapons are JUST AS good Ryans, which is why the conversation on weapons is irrelevant. The conversation is, why are we not producing?
[/quote]

Admirable argument but having two certified #1 WRs and an elite TE is different than our guys skills sets.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351491964' post='1205327']
Can we talk about a person not named Joe Flacco, Cary Williams, Cam Cameron, Dean Pees, and Ray Lewis for just one week? I feel like those are the only people this board is capable of talking about.
[/quote]

We, as fans, can talk about whoever. You can choose not to click the thread. Just saying.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1351551937' post='1205823']


We, as fans, can talk about whoever. You can choose not to click the thread. Just saying.
[/quote]well if you really wana get picky, there's already two flacco threads on page one. This could have been put in there. Just saying.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1351551768' post='1205814']


WHo said it would decide? I mentioned "at this point" looking at things.
[/quote]if the debate has been answered, surely it's decided?

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='Purple Nurple' timestamp='1351551508' post='1205812']
Oh. That Vikings game. I was on my knees at the bar when we missed that FG. Ugh. Good times.
[/quote]
I took my younger bro (he was 7) to a movie after to get my mind off things. But against greater competition (I met Sidney Rice's father, one of the nicest guys in the world and he was wearing a Ravens shirt... I had my doubts until he showed his pics, we both agreed that the Vikes would've killed Indy in that SB, I also tried to convince him that he should tell his son to come to B-More), Flacco has been clutch people around him were not. Let me tell you a few others.
Against Pit in regular season, where Dickson dropped it, and Harbs didn't go for the FG.
Against Pit in playoffs, where Housh gave up.
Against NE, well, Im not talking bout that.
The only one out of those where it was his fault (excluding his rookie year) was this year at Philly, which is ok bc Peyton, imo the greatest QB of the past 10 years, failed in the big game.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='display name' timestamp='1351527935' post='1205472']
This thread is garbage.
[/quote]

Yet you posted in it. Very well done.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1351551817' post='1205816']
I'd like to see Matt Ryan win a playoff game first. It's not like he hasnt had some poor showings this season either. Overall Ryan has played better, but against overall weaker competition.
[/quote]
Flacco has led his team back from deficets of 20. Ryan hasn't. Call me when he does. My number is
005,027,082.

[SecretAgentMan]

Was Brees an elite QB when Cam was still there????? No, ok. Was he always talked about in the "is he elite or not context"... Im pretty sure.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1351551336' post='1205810']
While I agree with you wholeheartedly, doesn't that suggest when Flacco faces most defenses outside of the AFCN he should excel? He's had his success of course but he's struggled at very curious times. AGain, I support him and he's our QB. Just swirling these thoughts around.
[/quote]

But in my view, everyone looks at the raw numbers and uses them to say Ryan is clearly better than Flacco. I believe the numbers are more a product of the system both play in, the players they have around them, and the teams they play. And Flacco does excell outside of the AFC North most times, the Texans just happen to be the number 2 passing defense in football. The question is does Flacco have an easy time beating teams with weak passing defenses, and the answer is yes. Right now in terms of opposing quarterback rating, of the teams we've played Houston is number 4 in the league and Philadelphia is number 8 - both games Flacco struggled in. Cinci is 27th, New England is 28th, Cleveland and KC were both bad weather games (which reinforces my point that Flacco plays a lot of games in bad weather while Ryan plays a minimum of 11 games a year either in a dome or in southern weather). Cleveland right now is middle of the league in passing defense, so we'll see what we look like after the bye. To me it looks like in terms of opposing passing defenses the schedule is much easier down the stretch, and I expect Flacco to play better, but we'll see.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='SpiderWebb21' timestamp='1351542127' post='1205664']
Correct.
[/quote]

Why because you got owned for saying the supporting cast argument was irrelevant?

[SecretAgentMan]

What I'm trying to say is this.
Fantasy
Ryan>Flacco
Real NFL
Flacco>Ryan.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351552022' post='1205825']
well if you really wana get picky, there's already two flacco threads on page one. This could have been put in there. Just saying.
[/quote]

Go to one of them then instead of complaining. Stay on topic.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1351551937' post='1205823']
We, as fans, can talk about whoever. You can choose not to click the thread. Just saying.
[/quote]

I'm just trying to say that we've run these topics in to the ground. We've debated, argued, and discussed those five guys endlessly and it's just beating a dead horse at this point.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351489648' post='1205307']
BTW, Flacco has more yards than Ryan, and both have six picks. Ryan has more TD and a higher QB rating.

So I'm not sure how this one season -- which we arent even halfway through yet -- is going to decide this "debate"
[/quote]
This is more entertaining than the master-debate last week. Lol, who cares bout QB rating, this aint FF.