At This Point In The Season, Has the Flacco/Ryan Debate Been Answered?

[raybaby]

Can I just say I hate that the Ravens board has offically become like the Falcons board with this Matt Ryan thread. They talk about Joe more than their own players and now here we are. For shame lol.

[flaccopoe]

I kind of want to see a Ravens/Falcons Super Bowl matchup, just so that this gets resolved once and for all!

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='allballs' timestamp='1351802713' post='1207311']
really, what has flacco done in the postseason? before you knee jerk, go back, do ya research....
[/quote]

His post season performance has improved every year.

Last year he had ratings of, respectively,

97.1 and 95.4.

In 2008, he had ratings of 59, 89.4 and 18.
In 2009, he had ratings of 10 and 48.4, however, he was injured that post season.
In 2010, he had ratings of 115.4 and 61.1.

Then two solid, good performances in 2011.

Ryan post season:

72, 69 and 71.

[Fuego]

Ryan

CMP. ATT YDS. CMP% AVG TD INT QBR RAT
240 351 2,771. 68.4 7.9. 20 7 79.2 102.6

Flacco

CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG TD INT QBR. RAT
186 309 2,331 60.2 7.54. 13. 7 58.4. 88.3

Not even close.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352927525' post='1219182']
Ryan

CMP. ATT YDS. CMP% AVG TD INT QBR RAT
240 351 2,771. 68.4 7.9. 20 7 79.2 102.6

Flacco

CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG TD INT QBR. RAT
186 309 2,331 60.2 7.54. 13. 7 58.4. 88.3

Not even close.
[/quote]
We've moved on hoss, its about their performances in the playoffs now. Where Ryan has yet to win a game.

[Fuego]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1352928082' post='1219189']We've moved on hoss, its about their performances in the playoffs now. Where Ryan has yet to win a game.
[/quote]

Not even relevant. The Ravens playoff success is because of the D. Exhibit #1, Trent Dilfer. It's the same with Flacco.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352929980' post='1219211']


Not even relevant. The Ravens playoff success is because of the D. Exhibit #1, Trent Dilfer. It's the same with Flacco.
[/quote]

Oh how foolish and uninformed you are.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352929980' post='1219211']


Not even relevant. The Ravens playoff success is because of the D. Exhibit #1, Trent Dilfer. It's the same with Flacco.
[/quote]clearly someone who knows very little about the ravens

[Ravensfan23]

The Ryan/Flacco debate is funny to me. Because at the end of the day, I don't think either players success/failure is a direct reflection upon them. If that makes any sense.

I say that because, while Ryan has great weapons, he also has a great system, yet again, that allows him to shine in what he does best, while not having to attempt the things he doesn't do so well. I personally still think that Ryan struggles when he has to push the ball downfield. However when he is allowed to dink and dump, then that sets up a big shot down field, he does well. From the LOS to 15 yards out, Ryan is really special, and of course because of the talent he's surrounded with, a 15 yard pass can turn into 60 with one missed tackle.

I will continue to say, Matt Ryan is the same guy I watched at BC and as a FSU fan I follow the ACC closely. That's no knock on him that he isn't a downfield passer, I actually commend he and his coaches for not even wanting that to be a hugepart of their game. Like Ryan can have a huge game numbers wise and never through the ball further then 15 yards beyond the LOS and that's his game. Something like 20-29 260 2TDs.

However with Flacco, i don't feel his coaches do a great job of putting him in winnable situations week in and week out. I know I know, i'm making excuses for Flacco, but before you jump all over me, hear me out. Flacco may very well be one of the best, if not thy best play action passers in the NFL, next to Peyton Manning. The play action moves the defense and gives the QB windows to complete passes. However Cam, for whatever reason refuses to use the playaction passing game with Flacco. You might see it 3-4 times per games. Instead, Flacco is forced to continually make throws into tight windows because despite the speed and athleticism of his weapons, they only run curl, dig, and shallow crossing routes mostly.

Most defenses take away Smith and Jones with double coverage on the outside, so imo, there is no reason why Pitta and Dickson shouldn't have much more impact on this offense, attacking the seams of a defense at least 60% of the time. 5 yard curls don't work.

Another area the Ravens lack in utilizing their weapons is with WR screens. With the speed and return ability of guys like Smith, Jones, Thompson, Doss, LQW and Reed, there is no reason why you shouldn't be giving Flacco at least 5 easy throws a game with WR screens. Get the ball into the hands of your playmakers early and see if you can complete a 2 yard pass that goes for 30. That puts added pressure on a defense and they can't just sit on routes and force the WRs to fight through coverage, which often leads to 3 and outs. Whenever the Ravens run WRs screens, it seems so poorly executed, but that's because they run them few and far in between. WRs screens shouldn't be considered trick plays.

Flacco has a huge arm, and good deep accuracy, true. However timing means a lot when taking shots. As I mentioned with Ryan, he's not a deep passer per say, neither is Andy Dalton but those guys are put in position to take advantage of deep strikes when they present themselves, they don't force them. Cam and I blame Flacco for this as well, will attempt a 60-70 yard pass on 3rd and 5, instead of just picking up the 1st down. When the Ravens don't force balls down field, they have so much more success at connecting with those passes. When Flacco is allowed to read the defense, and attempt his deep strikes based on the defensive look he gets, the offense runs much smoother.

So at the end of the day, I think they both excel at what they do well, but Ryan is put in place to do more of what he does well, as opposed to Flacco.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352929980' post='1219211']
Not even relevant. The Ravens playoff success is because of the D. Exhibit #1, Trent Dilfer. It's the same with Flacco.
[/quote] The Ravens playoff success is because of both sides of the ball. It might surprise you but you're allowed to score on offense in the playoffs.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352929980' post='1219211']
Not even relevant. The Ravens playoff success is because of the D. Exhibit #1, Trent Dilfer. It's the same with Flacco.
[/quote]

Since your original argument was purely statistical, let's consider the following. Trent Dilfer threw for 590 yards, 3 TDs, 1 INT and a QB rating of 83.7 in his 4 Postseason games. Matt Ryan has thrown for 584 yards, 3 TDs, 4 INTs and a QB rating of 70.9 in his 3. So with that in mind, Dilfer > Ryan? Absolutely not, obviously. But you should see the trouble in going solely off of numbers. I do wonder what you attribute the Falcons' playoff failures to, given that the numbers I've posted above don't exactly bode well for Ryan.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352929980' post='1219211']
Not even relevant. The Ravens playoff success is because of the D. Exhibit #1, Trent Dilfer. It's the same with Flacco.
[/quote]

That's an interesting argument. You know who else has done way more in the playoffs than Matt Ryan? Trent Dilfer, lol. When Flacco has played poorly in the postseason we have lost, when he plays well we win. To this point, Ryan [i]always[/i] plays poorly in the playoffs and also in big games. See: The Saints.

Today, I want Dilfer over Ryan in a playoff game because Dilfer doesn't choke, Ryan does. This is fact and it is not debatable. Maybe Ryan changes that this year, maybe he doesn't. Until he does it will always be a knock. Flacco on the other hand is a dropped pass away from the Super Bowl and I like him in any big game because he [b]shows up[/b].

But hey, you can keep your little NFC south wins and continue to get sonned by the Saints ;-).

[beasy2487]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1352937378' post='1219316']
That's an interesting argument. You know who else has done way more in the playoffs than Matt Ryan? Trent Dilfer, lol. When Flacco has played poorly in the postseason we have lost, when he plays well we win. To this point, Ryan [i]always[/i] plays poorly in the playoffs and also in big games. See: The Saints.

Today, I want Dilfer over Ryan in a playoff game because Dilfer doesn't choke, Ryan does. This is fact and it is not debatable. Maybe Ryan changes that this year, maybe he doesn't. Until he does it will always be a knock. Flacco on the other hand is a dropped pass away from the Super Bowl and I like him in any big game because he [b]shows up[/b].

But hey, you can keep your little NFC south wins and continue to get sonned by the Saints ;-).

[/quote]

[Fuego]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1352937378' post='1219316']But hey, you can keep your little NFC south wins and continue to get sonned by the Saints ;-).
[/quote]

8-1. Just another loss.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352938348' post='1219330']
8-1. Just another loss.
[/quote]
Just like the past 3 playoff trips, amirite?

[CalvinSmoke]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1352598618' post='1214550']
I meant in college, he might have shared with his teammate Cushing.
[/quote]Honestly Mr. Irrelevant i felt the EXACT same way. He was a bit of a rail in college, and then he got jacked out of no where. And his performance in his first two years in the league just felt very Shawn Merriman like to me. But if he was juicing he would have been caught by now, and he isn't running tackles over like he was earlier in his career. So mabye he has been clean.

[TXRaven]

Yep Joe still has more career wins and more playoff wins last time I checked.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='TXRaven' timestamp='1352945624' post='1219416']
Yep Joe still has more career wins and more playoff wins last time I checked.
[/quote]
Wins are the only stat that matter. Flacco doesnt have to always throw bc of Rice..... People cant seem to get that....

[Bltravens]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352929980' post='1219211']
Not even relevant. The Ravens playoff success is because of the D. Exhibit #1, Trent Dilfer. It's the same with Flacco.
[/quote]
Lol, not relevant, who are you? The Ravens win games in the playoffs because they can play outside when it gets cold. The Falcons can't play outside of their dome when it gets cold.

Oh and do you mean the Trent Dilfer who has outplayed Ryan in the playoffs thus far? Ya thats how bad Ryan has been in the playoffs.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1352945745' post='1219417']
Wins are the only stat that matter. [b]Flacco doesnt have to always throw bc of Rice..... People cant seem to get that....[/b]
[/quote]

People also forget that Rice has been relatively hit-or-miss in the post-season since he became a starter. Since '09, the passing game has been more effective than the ground game and has been a bigger factor in the wins and close losses.

[HoldingCall]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1352991068' post='1219613']
People also forget that Rice has been relatively hit-or-miss in the post-season since he became a starter. Since '09, the passing game has been more effective than the ground game and has been a bigger factor in the wins and close losses.
[/quote]

Are you kidding me? Both are needed for us to be successful if it's nothing more than the threat he poses to the defense by him being in the game. Rice is like have a young Ed Reed on offense, if you don't account for him you are heading into trouble.

[HoldingCall]

Who cares about Matt Ryan? I don't understand why he is being discussed during a season when the Ravens don't play his team. Flacco is best for our team and Ryan is best for his team.

It's about the fit! An expensive pair of quality shoes does no good if the fit is off. Every QB does not fit every team and comparing stats doesn't show the true picture either.

You all have the right to discuss Joe and Matt but, wow.

[The Raven]

[quote name='HoldingCall' timestamp='1352995394' post='1219659']
Are you kidding me? Both are needed for us to be successful if it's nothing more than the threat he poses to the defense by him being in the game. Rice is like have a young Ed Reed on offense, if you don't account for him you are heading into trouble.
[/quote]

He never said we didn't need a run game. He never said Rice doesn't pose a threat. All he said is that Rice is very hit or miss in the post season since 2009, which is completely true, and that our passing game has been more effective. He said nothing incorrect. He didn't say either of the things you accused him of.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='HoldingCall' timestamp='1352995394' post='1219659']
Are you kidding me? Both are needed for us to be successful if it's nothing more than the threat he poses to the defense by him being in the game. Rice is like have a young Ed Reed on offense, if you don't account for him you are heading into trouble.
[/quote]

What are you talking about? Of course his presence makes a difference; I never claimed it didn't. But he's been a relative non-factor in multiple play-off games the past two trips to the post-season and the offense has still moved the ball. That can't be disputed.

[CalvinSmoke]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1352997140' post='1219680']


What are you talking about? Of course his presence makes a difference; I never claimed it didn't. But he's been a relative non-factor in multiple play-off games the past two trips to the post-season and the offense has still moved the ball. That can't be disputed.
[/quote]I'm still scarred behind his fumble against Pitssburgh in 2010. (Playoffs)

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='HoldingCall' timestamp='1352996522' post='1219667']
Who cares about Matt Ryan? I don't understand why he is being discussed during a season when the Ravens don't play his team. Flacco is best for our team and Ryan is best for his team.

It's about the fit! An expensive pair of quality shoes does no good if the fit is off. Every QB does not fit every team and comparing stats doesn't show the true picture either.

You all have the right to discuss Joe and Matt but, wow.
[/quote]

I brought it up because of the constant comparisons and them being liked as the top two QBs in their draft class. In a QB driven league, it's a relevant discussion.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='flaccopoe' timestamp='1352870147' post='1218666']
I kind of want to see a Ravens/Falcons Super Bowl matchup, just so that this gets resolved once and for all!
[/quote]

I'll take a Ravens Vs anybody super bowl though lol. But I hear ya!

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='Fuego' timestamp='1352938348' post='1219330']
8-1. Just another loss.
[/quote]

LMAO after your big mouth receiver just finished saying "we have the pedigree to go undefeated" and then stuffed his other foot in his mouth by pouting and saying "we gave them the game." Yeah Ryan did on 4th down. Ya'll are overrated and I'll say it....trash. Get a playoff victory before you try going at the winningest QB since 2008. That includes your boy. And remember when they went head to head? Yeah a non called offenseive PI is the only reason you won that game.

[HoldingCall]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1352997140' post='1219680']
What are you talking about? Of course his presence makes a difference; I never claimed it didn't. But he's been a relative non-factor in multiple play-off games the past two trips to the post-season and the offense has still moved the ball. That can't be disputed.
[/quote]

I haven't seen a playoff game where Rice was a non-factor, but I guess it depends on you what you consider a non-factor.

[HoldingCall]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1352996757' post='1219672']
He never said we didn't need a run game. He never said Rice doesn't pose a threat. All he said is that Rice is very hit or miss in the post season since 2009, which is completely true, and that our passing game has been more effective. He said nothing incorrect. He didn't say either of the things you accused him of.
[/quote]

What I read was the word non-factor, not the words hit or miss (my bad). Either way I disagree with your statement and his. It just seems to be a contradiction to suggest he's been a non factor yet imply that he was needed. I think it may have just been a little bit of an overstatement of facts.

I am not disputing the effects of the passing game but it seems the team often falls into the same trap repeatedly whenever they have a good passing game/s. Then the OC attempts to over do it, which eventually leads to games like Philly, Houston, Jacksonville, Seattle, etc.