48 replies to this topic

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Listen, Mods before you shut this down or merger please read.
After the horrifying loss on Sunday, it is clear that we are indeed in trouble. We are injured, and have clowns as our Coordinators. I have no idea what either of these guys are doing. Let me clear some things out of the way first.

For you<profanity deleted> Flacco trolls who thinks that he is horrible, he is one of the best QBs in the NFL. Not elite, but he is #6, or 7. There is no one (other than Rodgers or Manning) that I would rather have as our QB. He has one elite weapon, Rice. We have the best QB RB combo the NFL has seen in a while. Why are we not implamenting the no huddle, Flacco was unstoppable under that thing. Anyway back on topic.

Balance on the Offense is muy importante. As I said earlier, Flacco is a top 10 QB, Ray is argueably the best RB in the NFL. Why we dont use him as much ID understand. For those of you saying we need to be totally dependent on Rice are wrong. We need the 50-50 no huddle. Our offense is the best in the NFL, if we do that. We can let Flacco do his thing during the clutch, he has proven to have the it factor (his players around him do not). We need to use the run to set up the pass, so please more carries for Rice, but don't totally depend on him. Cam, if you are reading this, then please go back to week three. Flacco showed the it factor, and Rice got the carries. Now for Defense.

What the <profanity deleted>has happened on D. I mean seriously, I get that we are injured and all, but seriously. Pees, I have one honest question for you. What the <heck> are you doing? Our corners excel in man to man, and our LB's are not good at the schemes they are running. Look, I am the number one Cary hater, but I tried to play Skip Bayless and defend you, and you pissed me off. Thats hard to do. Man to Man+Blitz=Sucess. And agression, no "conservative" crap. Agression is why our D has been so strong. A lot of it is the weak link at NT, and Suggs being our. Ill be honest, Ray was only on the field bc he is a coach on the field. His playing would have gotten him benched, we are fine there. Webb was the Charles Woodson guy, Covered the third and first man. I think we are ok there bc of depth, but Pees, we have talent. Use it.

These guys are clowns and have no idea on what they are doing, IK they arent playing, but schemes has a lot to do with football. This is the petion thread, like the Tucker one, sign your user name below, and state, Pees, Cameron or both. IMHO, I think Cam is too inconsistent, at times he is great, at times he sucks. I think we can keep him, but I think he will be employed elsewhere if he is fired.

Mods, this is not the bash the DC, and OC coordinator thread, I gave an explanation, now people can sign there names here. No bashing please..... We have plenty of threads for those.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

All im saying is it worked for Tucker (that was more a superstition thing) so maybe it will work here.

Mr.Irrelevant BTW, and both

Edited by Mr. Irrelevant, 25 October 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[theFRANCHISE]

Balance is something every team tries to achieve. Unfortunately, if you don't adjust to the flow of the game, balance for its own sake is a detriment.

Of course, that's moot if the coordinators aren't adjusting to the flow of the game regardless -- but that's a topic separate from that of balance.

Two points I'd like to make: 1) you can achieve balance without firing the coordinators; and 2) more importantly, if you fire the coordinators now, who do you replace them with? Who is really a viable option midseason? Who's really a viable option in the offseason?

[Ed_Reed20]

...but Pees, we have talent. Use it.

I'm a little surprised this is still debatable. I forget where I read this but in the last five drafts, the team has drafted roughly 24 offensive players to 14 defensive ones. That alone should help explain the defensive drop-off we've seen this year. Granted, a number of those defensive players were drafted in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round. But when you consider that the only impact defensive player the team has drafted since '06 was Webb, I can't see how anyone can make the claim the talent is there on defense.

Seriously, take a look at the draft history. Barnes (4th rounder I know, but he had 1st-round explosion), Gooden, Zbikowski, Kruger, Kindle and Cody were all expected to make plays for this team but they never did for varying reasons. Still, the front office brought in enough quality free agents, especially along the d-line, to off-set a lack of production from the draft. This past off-season was the first I can remember in a while no truly notable signings were made along the front seven.

The organization put their faith in young players for the most part and no one has stepped up so far. Kemo was out of football all last year, got signed, and vaulted a player (Cody) that started every game last season. That's just pathetic. Had Ryan McBean not gotten hurt, it wouldn't have surprised if he was seeing a lot of snaps over McPhee and Jones. Neither Pernell and Art were high picks but I think we all expected more from them this season than what we've seen so far. The same goes for Kruger. In the secondry, Cary and Jimmy's struggles have been well-documented .

Some fans might be too prideful to admit it but when a team gets consistently whooped at the LOS, fails to generate any kind of consistent pass rush (no matter the opponent) and generally struggles in coverage, it's pretty obvious talent is a major issue. Some guys can play better but the unit just isn't good enough for the most part.

Edited by Ed_Reed20, 25 October 2012 - 07:45 PM.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Balance is something every team tries to achieve. Unfortunately, if you don't adjust to the flow of the game, balance for its own sake is a detriment.

Of course, that's moot if the coordinators aren't adjusting to the flow of the game regardless -- but that's a topic separate from that of balance.

Two points I'd like to make: 1) you can achieve balance without firing the coordinators; and 2) more importantly, if you fire the coordinators now, who do you replace them with? Who is really a viable option midseason? Who's really a viable option in the offseason?

Well, Cam is easy, we have Jim who had Peyton. A QB that didnt need balance. Pees is tough.... He either gets his act together or he is gone.
Can we achieve balance without Cam? Yes, I believe Jim is not the idiot Cam is at times.

[K-Dog]

more importantly, if you fire the coordinators now, who do you replace them with? Who is really a viable option midseason? Who's really a viable option in the offseason?

If I had a dollar for every time I have asked that about coordinators or players or coaches.

I would,,,,, I would, Well I would be able to go out to dinner at Chipotle by my self is what I would do.

Edited by K-Dog, 25 October 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Some fans might be too prideful to admit it but when a team is getting consistently whooped at the LOS, fails to generate an kind of consistent pass rush (no matter the opponent) and generally struggles in coverage, it's pretty obvious talent is a major issue. Some guys can play better but the unit just isn't good enough for the most part.

I admit it, but Cody played well last year. Cary played well last year, hell, Kruger and Mcphee played well last year. A good DCoordinator can make a talentless bunch look good. With that said, Terreance is in his third, Jimmy is a sophmore, McPhee looked good. Jimmy and Cary are great in Man to Man... Kruger is a situational pass rusher. I think we have talent... not much but some.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

If I had a dollar for every time I have asked that about coordinators or players or coaches.

I would,,,,, I would, Well I would be able to go out to dinner at Chipotle by my self is what I would do.

(Finishes eating dinner at Ruths Chris) What? Lol jk

[Ed_Reed20]

I admit it, but Cody played well last year. Cary played well last year, hell, Kruger and Mcphee played well last year. A good DCoordinator can make a talentless bunch look good. With that said, Terreance is in his third, Jimmy is a sophmore, McPhee looked good. Jimmy and Cary are great in Man to Man... Kruger is a situational pass rusher. I think we have talent... not much but some.

Last year, Cody was average (Haloti and Redding were better run-stuffers along the line) and you're deluding yourself if you think Cary played well. Kruger and McPhee played well on limited snaps. Neither of them were starters or saw as many snaps as they are this season.

I'm not denying a good DC can't make a difference and Pees certainly has his faults but no DC can make a "talentless bunch look good".

Also, I've seen a few fans make this claim that Jimmy and Cary are "great" in man-to-man. What exactly have you seen to suggest that? Cary has been beaten like a drum no matter the style of D going back to last year. And Jimmy has had more than his share of lapses when clearly in man coverage as well. He's got all the physical tools but you need a lot more than to be a successful CB in the NFL.

Edited by Ed_Reed20, 25 October 2012 - 07:55 PM.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Last year, Cody was average (Haloti and Redding were better run-stuffers along the line) and you're deluding yourself if you think Cary played well. Kruger and McPhee played well on limited snaps. Neither of them were starters or saw as many snaps as they are this season.

I'm not denying a good DC can't make a difference and Pees certainly has his faults but no DC can make a "talentless bunch look good".

Also, I've seen a few fans make this claim that Jimmy and Cary are "great" in man-to-man. What exactly have you seen to suggest that? Cary has been beaten like a drum no matter the style of D going back to last year. And Jimmy has had more than his share of lapses when clearly in man coverage as well. He's got all the physical tools but you need a lot more than to be a successful CB in the NFL.

Let me say this, I was being sarcastic with the talentless bunch. If you are in the NFL, you have talent. Second off, Cary wasnt great in man to man, but was the hell of a lot better in that then in zone. Jimmy is still learning, the loss of Redding killed us, and I am the fool who wanted him to go. That was a sarcasm post, cept bout Jimmy, he is going to be great, but has his faults.

[Ed_Reed20]

Let me say this, I was being sarcastic with the talentless bunch. If you are in the NFL, you have talent. Second off, Cary wasnt great in man to man, but was the hell of a lot better in that then in zone. Jimmy is still learning, the loss of Redding killed us, and I am the fool who wanted him to go. That was a sarcasm post, cept bout Jimmy, he is going to be great, but has his faults.

Unless you have the splits on Cary's coverage metrics in man and zone over the past season and a half, I really think that's just perception on your part. According to PFF's numbers, he was among the worst 10 among CBs last season in terms of catches and yards surrended. So whatever Pagano was calling, he struggled. And he's obviously done the same this year.

We can curse zone coverage all we want, but until the pass rush picks up, Pees has to call it a fair amount.

Sarcasm post? Fair enough...

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Unless you have the splits on Cary's coverage metrics in man and zone over the past season and a half, I really think that's just perception on your part. According to PFF's numbers, he was among the worst 10 among CBs last season in terms of catches and yards surrended. So whatever Pagano was calling, he struggled. And he's obviously done the same this year.

We can curse zone coverage all we want, but until the pass rush picks up, Pees has to call it a fair amount.

Sarcasm post? Fair enough...

Yeah, cant disagree here. I still think Pees should be gone.

[Ed_Reed20]

Yeah, cant disagree here. I still think Pees should be gone.

Who would you bring in to replace him? And do you think they'd make a notable difference?

Edited by Ed_Reed20, 25 October 2012 - 08:24 PM.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Who would you bring in to replace him? And do you think they'd make a notable difference?

IDK, but Im pretty sure that the DLine coach would love to take the job. And bc hes been with our organization since Billick, yes I think so.

[theFRANCHISE]

As an aside, we Mods try to read as much as possible, especially the first post of any new thread.

So, adding a disclaimer that you don't want a thread merged or closed, doesn't necessarily mean that we'll make an exception.

[gabefergy]

The defense is what it is. I think the return of Suggs will help us rebound to a degree, but if we take an onjective look at what we have talent-wise, there are a lot of holes, especially along the D-line. If Ngata gets healthy and Suggs rounds into his DPOY form then we will be in decent shape but those are two very big ifs.

On Offense, I think there is more to be concerned about. Talent is not the problem, but the problem isnt entirely on the OC either. There was a very obvious lack of execution in several key moments against Houston. I am going to highlight a couple of them:

The two plays that led to the safety were due to a complete lack of execution. On first down, Cam called an inside handoff to Leach which worked very well and got us some breathing room. It put is in 2nd and short. The next play we came out in a heavy personnel set with Leach, Rice, and 2 TEs. Torrey was the only WR on the field. Now, personally I would have liked to see a run called here and pick up the first down, but this is also a good down and distance to take a shot. Instead of keeping the TEs in two block they were both sent on routes along with Rice. Leach was kept in to block. Texans are showing a 5 man pressure.

Now the failure in execution was two-fold. First, KO blocks his man, JJ Watt, but immediately comes off him to double team the NT. This leaves Leach having to block both Watt and the blitzing OLB, Mercilus. Leach does a great job of first standing up Mercilus and then cutting Watt, but because KO left the initial block so early it allowed Mercilus to get to Flacco. Now the 2nd part of the failure is on Joe. He still has Torrey wide open coming across the field on his drag route, but instead of hitting him he tries to step up and ends up taking the sack.

The next play the problem lies once again in picking up the proper blocking assignments. We have a single back formation with Flacco in the shotgun, 3 WRs and 1 TE. The Texans once again line up like they are brining 5, but actually bring 6 with a CB coming from the Strong side. I initially thought Mr. Flacco was at fault because he didnt see the OLB (Barwin) coming off the edge, but in fact, Oher motions at him so there was an acknowledgent of that defender. However, instead of blocking this rusher, Oher blocks the DE. This is obviously a miscommunication. Oher thinks Rice will pick up the OLB, but Rice picks up the blitzing DB instead. Flacco was completely blindsided by a defender that should have been blocked.

While these two plays are not the reason we lost the game, they resulted in a signficant momentum swing and are just two examples of how we got out-played on the field. It's definitely fair to question some of the play-calling, but when the players are not doing their job, the results are often going to be poor no matter how good the play-call.

[SuggsBarber]

Last year, Cody was average (Haloti and Redding were better run-stuffers along the line) and you're deluding yourself if you think Cary played well. Kruger and McPhee played well on limited snaps. Neither of them were starters or saw as many snaps as they are this season.

I'm not denying a good DC can't make a difference and Pees certainly has his faults but no DC can make a "talentless bunch look good".

Also, I've seen a few fans make this claim that Jimmy and Cary are "great" in man-to-man. What exactly have you seen to suggest that? Cary has been beaten like a drum no matter the style of D going back to last year. And Jimmy has had more than his share of lapses when clearly in man coverage as well. He's got all the physical tools but you need a lot more than to be a successful CB in the NFL.

This.We as fans look at this team with blinders.I agree the coordinators can only do so much.Players/talent make plays.We're not making them(particularly on the defense) because outside of Suggs and a hobbled Ngata(you could make a lessening argument for Ed Reed whos basically as good as he guesses) we have no one keeping OC's up at night.At best we have guys who can get the job done.Only they haven;t been doing it.

[DocMartin]

Last year, Cody was average (Haloti and Redding were better run-stuffers along the line) and you're deluding yourself if you think Cary played well. Kruger and McPhee played well on limited snaps. Neither of them were starters or saw as many snaps as they are this season.

I'm not denying a good DC can't make a difference and Pees certainly has his faults but no DC can make a "talentless bunch look good".

Also, I've seen a few fans make this claim that Jimmy and Cary are "great" in man-to-man. What exactly have you seen to suggest that? Cary has been beaten like a drum no matter the style of D going back to last year. And Jimmy has had more than his share of lapses when clearly in man coverage as well. He's got all the physical tools but you need a lot more than to be a successful CB in the NFL.

I very much agree with your assesment there. And the sad part of it is, when it comes to changing the coordinators in mid-season, there are not many good options available.
1) Offense - Cam Cameron, when given a lots of time to prepare, could come up with good game plan (1st week vs. Bengals). After that, rollercoaster up and down. Games on the road - Nightmares. Always Pass happy, his game time adjustments are very weak, seems like he's lacking the feel for the game. There were some flashes of bright moments, so as long he coan provide some stability and balanced attack on week to week basis I think his job is safe for remainder of the season.
2) Defense - Dean Pees, put in tough spot at the start of the season and since we lost 2 playmakers in Lewis & Webb, things got even worse. But there is no excuse for being 27th or 28th ranked defense, giving up 400 yards every game. Yes, we lack some talent on part of players we have there, our draft picks didn't turn out as expected, but most of them have not reached their potential. With the players we have, as a unit, we should not be ranked worse than 15th or 16th defense. It's up to the coach to create the schemes which plays into players strengths, and that has not worked well so far. Suggs is back, so things should get better. We have to stop the run and get off the field. I'm giving Pees one more chance get things right against the Browns, but he is step away from being under the bus.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

I didnt read anything you said but if youre asking the front office to fire Cam that would be the dumbest move we could make.Our offense is heading in the right direction.Each year since hes been here weve otten better and better.At the beginning of the season it looked like they was the best offense in football.If youre asking for Dean Pees' head,im totally with you on that.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I didnt read anything you said but if youre asking the front office to fire Cam that would be the dumbest move we could make.Our offense is heading in the right direction.Each year since hes been here weve otten better and better.At the beginning of the season it looked like they was the best offense in football.If youre asking for Dean Pees' head,im totally with you on that.

Ill change the top, I was foolish to take my bad day yesterday onto the forums.. Mybad.
I agree with Cam..... IMHO, he is too inconsitent. Pees
Off with the head....