Oher Extension: A Mistake on the Horizon?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='PurpleCityLights' timestamp='1351107487' post='1202805']




Guess we should've paid Flacco, let Rice walk and
Become an 8-8 team because we damn sure not making the playoffs with Flacco throwing the ball more. BTW isn't Flacco QB rating like 43.5 or something like that.......he's average Joe @ home and then he turns into Mark Sanchez when we play away.



Great idea dude we can magically get any good RB,magically get a great offensive line and then we can just let T.Smith run 9-routes all day and let Flacco drop bomb on him......
[/quote]you keeping running your mouth of like that being sarcastic thinking you know it all you won't get much respect around here.

You don't know what your talking about with rice, you weren't active on the board then, it was discussed for months and months whether we pay him, and it had nothing to do with his talent. It was a number of completely different things you obviously haven't considered.

Maybe before running your mouth out again go back and find the thread where it was discussed and read the arguments for and against signing him. Your making yourself look foolish here to the people that were here for the well thought out, highly discussed and debated argument for not signing rice.

It's probably been one of the best debates, in that it never turned nasty, and there was a good back and forth, that I've seen in ravens talk.

There was little to no sarcastic comments like yours apart from people that weren't smart enough to understand the other people's opinions.

[admartian]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351109441' post='1202841']
you keeping running your mouth of like that being sarcastic thinking you know it all you won't get much respect around here.

You don't know what your talking about with rice, you weren't active on the board then, it was discussed for months and months whether we pay him, and it had nothing to do with his talent. It was a number of completely different things you obviously haven't considered.

Maybe before running your mouth out again go back and find the thread where it was discussed and read the arguments for and against signing him. Your making yourself look foolish here to the people that were here for the well thought out, highly discussed and debated argument for not signing rice.

It's probably been one of the best debates, in that it never turned nasty, and there was a good back and forth, that I've seen in ravens talk.

There was little to no sarcastic comments like yours apart from people that weren't smart enough to understand the other people's opinions.
[/quote] Yeah I remember those discussions.

I was always on the fence on that issue and saw the arguments on both sides - as in I wouldn't have been terribly disappointed/excited which ever way it went.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='admartian' timestamp='1351110091' post='1202848']
Yeah I remember those discussions.

I was always on the fence on that issue and saw the arguments on both sides - as in I wouldn't have been terribly disappointed/excited which ever way it went.
[/quote]yea I was all for tagging 2 years in a row and cutting bait then, but again, it has nothing to do with rices talent levels, more a cap issue, and of course that dreaded drop off he's going to have any year now.

[The Raven]

A mistake? Get real dude. Coming from Oher's second biggest critic on the board, (only behind Flynismo) Oher has played very well this season. Ozzie will not overpay for him, but Oher has proven he is more than capable of playing LT in the NFL. He has also shown to be a really good RT. He has versatility that a lot of offensive linemen don't have. That increases his pay day.

Your comment about Oher not fitting the zone blocking scheme is just hysterically wrong. Oher is the prototypical offensive lineman for a zone blocking scheme. Also, the zone blocking scheme requires very little intelligence from what I understand. My college runs the zone scheme, and the blocking rules are quite simple.

Your comment about giving big money to RGs and RBs is just straight up stupid. Yanda and Rice are arguably the best in the NFL at what they do. If guards are so easily replaced, why the hell do we have a revolving door at LG right now? When you have an elite lineman, you lock him up. End of story. Bye bye. The game is won in the trenches. Nine times out of ten, the team with better offensive line play wins the game.

The bottom line is, good offensive linemen usually get resigned. Oher is a good LT. You must still be watching clips from 2010. This year, he is a capable player. He will be resigned due to two reasons. Firstly, he is versatile enough to play LT, RT, and I'm positive he could play either guard position. Secondly, he is a good player and has earned a contract extension. He's not a "marketing scheme."


On the contract itself, Ozzie will get a reasonable deal done as he always does. He never overpays for players whether you realize it or not.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='bauer77' timestamp='1351106449' post='1202794']
I've already agreed to disagree on the whole Rice thing, but Yanda deserved every cent of his deal. He's the only sure thing on our OL right now. I wish we could've found a way to keep Grubbs still, but i couldn't see any other way. I guess that extra few million was a huge deal to him.
[/quote]

Yanda has been a great player for is, and my point was not to bash him. My point is RG is well known as the easiest spot to find on the line in terms of getting a competent player. Compartively, Grubbs was a much better pass protector and between the two of them I'd would have preferred to see him paid, especially with an inept LT like Oher over there who could really use the help. I think we panicked after the horrid line play of two years ago and paid Yanda more than necessary due to his versatility after playing RT that season. My opinion is based more off of a value over replacement player, but as PFF noted Yanda is the bright spot along a below average offensive line and I didn't intend to belittle him.

[quote name='EricH' timestamp='1351108639' post='1202824']
These forums are such a happy place after a loss.
[/quote]

I may have stated my opinion a bit more harshly worded than I normally would because I'm upset, but these opinions aren't anything new from me. I would take a different strategy from Ozzie if I were running this team from a player-personnel standpoint, it's just that it's come up a lot recently. This is something worth bringing up because an Oher deal has the potential of impacting this team for the worse. Oher is horribly ranked in pass protection, and that is not something we need. He has never reached the heights he reached during his rookie season at RT, and I fear he never will. He was just average last year, and in pass protection he's still a joke. That's what I'm worried about right now. We can't keep letting our QB eat dirt because of a poor offensive scheme and bad line play.

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351109441' post='1202841']
It's probably been one of the best debates, in that it never turned nasty, and there was a good back and forth, that I've seen in ravens talk.
[/quote]

That was one of our better ones, and I have a feeling that same topic might come up again in the future. I'm of the opinion that anything is better than another repetitive 'Fire Pees', 'Flacco Sucks', or 'Run the Ball More' thread right now.

[admartian]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351110306' post='1202851']
yea I was all for tagging 2 years in a row and cutting bait then, but again, it has nothing to do with rices talent levels, more a cap issue, and of course that dreaded drop off he's going to have any year now.
[/quote]Pretty much same here.

If I were Oz, I'd tell Cam to use him anyway he can seeing as we've just paid for the guy. Heck I'd use as much Joe and/or Rice as much as possible, definitely more Rice to balance it out.

In regards to Oher, I don't believe he's been bad at penalties this year either. I think I've only seen him flagged once this season (famous last words: watch him get pinged a billion times for the rest of the season ). Also, he's held out Demarcus Ware, and does a pretty solid job.

[BenMir]

According to BleacherReport, Oher has allowed 2 sacks, 13 pressures and 4 penalties in 7 game.
Lets say 2 pressures a game.. still, considering the players he played against - I think it's a decent number. Especially with 2 sacks.
Thoughts?

[gabefergy]

As long as we are not giving Oher elite LT money 8M+ year, then extending him is not a mistake. Oher is a dominant run-blocking tackle that is average to above average in pass-blocking. He has the ability to play either LT or RT which is useful and he has really improved on cutting down the pre-snap penalties. Our Oline needs to have some continuity moving forward and having Yanda and Oher as two veterans is a big step in that direction.

[codizzle]

[quote name='BenMir' timestamp='1351113739' post='1202885']
According to BleacherReport, Oher has allowed 2 sacks, 13 pressures and 4 penalties in 7 game.
Lets say 2 pressures a game.. still, considering the players he played against - I think it's a decent number. Especially with 2 sacks.
Thoughts?
[/quote]
I believe bleacher report is wrong.. Saw different numbers from PFF and I trust them way more

[BenMir]

[quote name='codizzle' timestamp='1351114232' post='1202890']
I believe bleacher report is wrong.. Saw different numbers from PFF and I trust them way more
[/quote]
Mind posting them? I also trust PFF more

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351112029' post='1202869']
Your comment about Oher not fitting the zone blocking scheme is just hysterically wrong. Oher is the prototypical offensive lineman for a zone blocking scheme. Also, the zone blocking scheme requires very little intelligence from what I understand. My college runs the zone scheme, and the blocking rules are quite simple.

Your comment about giving big money to RGs and RBs is just straight up stupid. Yanda and Rice are arguably the best in the NFL at what they do. If guards are so easily replaced, why the hell do we have a revolving door at LG right now? When you have an elite lineman, you lock him up. End of story. Bye bye. The game is won in the trenches. Nine times out of ten, the team with better offensive line play wins the game.

On the contract itself, Ozzie will get a reasonable deal done as he always does. He never overpays for players whether you realize it or not.
[/quote]

Oher has proven over the last three years that he is incapable of playing to the highest of his ability in the zone blocking scheme. Yes, he does have athleticism, but he has proven incapable of applying it in the correct fashion. Really Oher's forte is his strength, his footwork is still inconsistent at best, and footwork and agility are more important for zone blocking. The zone blocking scheme is undeniably more sophisticated than other blocking schemes, requiring on the fly recognition and decision making by the lineman. Adjustments happen while the play is going on, requiring fast thinking lineman who know how to adjust quickly. In terms of intelligence being necessary, you couldn't be more wrong. Oher's one successful season came when he was told exactly who to block most of the time.

You make one point here that's valid and has been the exact point I've been trying to get across since the Rice debate. This game is won in the trenches, and the offensive line is the second most important position to pay behind only the quarterback position. I also said RGs are relatively easy to replace, not LGs. Also, at the time of Yanda's contract extension he did not get the recognition he started to get last season, meaning it's likely we could have gotten him cheaper especially due to the relatively more common position.

Ozzie overpays players all the time, but that's not really the point of this thread. Suggs is my favorite player on the team, but Ozzie ruined all 3-4 OLB contract numbers for every team by caving to him in contract negotiations. Ray Lewis' deal is undeniably and laughably overpriced.

The point is, versatility is not important when your line is set so there's no reason to overpay someone because they can play more than one position. Most lineman can play out of position if someone gets injured, giving someone extra money for that is just foolish. We need to put more focus onto getting the offensive line set, like the Patriots had for many years, to protect our quarterback. Oher's indeptitude in pass protection, his problems with penalties, his inconsistency, and his lack of intelligence mean he should be getting nothing more than average RT money, and we'd be much better off letting him walk and moving on. If nothing else, your post stripped your right of calling yourself Oher's second biggest critic since you ignored every flaw present in his game.

[arnie_uk]

According to pff he's gave up 2 sacks, 1 against kc and philli, 6 hits and 13 hurries and only 4 penalties thus far. Grades out as the 40th best pass blocking tackle, left or right.

He actually grades out worse as a run blocker this year, 42nd.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351115019' post='1202905']
According to pff he's gave up 2 sacks, 1 against kc and philli, 6 hits and 13 hurries and only 4 penalties thus far. Grades out as the 40th best pass blocking tackle, left or right.

He actually grades out worse as a run blocker this year, 42nd.
[/quote]

Which means he's below average, and if I'm not mistaken he's always graded low on pass blocking efficiency.

[BenMir]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351115019' post='1202905']
According to pff he's gave up 2 sacks, 1 against kc and philli, 6 hits and 13 hurries and only 4 penalties thus far. Grades out as the 40th best pass blocking tackle, left or right.

He actually grades out worse as a run blocker this year, 42nd.
[/quote]
Mind posting KO's as well?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='BenMir' timestamp='1351115587' post='1202916']

Mind posting KO's as well?
[/quote]3 sack 3 hits 14 hurries.

Yanda 0 sacks, 2 hits 2 hurries. He grades out overall as the second best guard only to alex boone of sf and that's only due to yandas 5 pens, when Boone has none. Yanda grades out better in both pass and run blocking.

Harewood is 1 sack 1 hit 1 hurry.

Birk 1 sack 3 hits 6 hurries.

Williams 3 sacks and 3 hurries.

[arnie_uk]

Hey have charged 4 sacks to ray rice.

[berad]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351116043' post='1202924']
Hey have charged 4 sacks to ray rice.
[/quote]

Ouch! I knew he wasn't good at pass-pro but 4 sacks? Jeez...... And he's doesn't have to pass block nearly as much as the other guys

[nk02442]

[quote name='PurpleCityLights' timestamp='1351105719' post='1202777']
Never knew you can just go find RBs out of nowhere that will give you good production,
Wonder why ever team in the NFL doesn't have One if its that simple?????????
[/quote]

RB is by far the easier position to fill. Its the easiest transition from college, its the easiest position to play mentaly and traditionaly has the lowest wonderlick average........for a reason. Now I'm not saying your going to find AP/Smith/Tomilson type player as a UDFA, but there are PLENTY of servicble backs that could be starters. Most teams do have a marque back, but without a good line, and unless you have a true once every 5 years Back like AP, your not going to do anything. Good Rb usualy have a good line.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1351116234' post='1202930']


RB is by far the easier position to fill. Its the easiest transition from college, its the easiest position to play mentaly and traditionaly has the lowest wonderlick average........for a reason. Now I'm not saying your going to find AP/Smith/Tomilson type player as a UDFA, but there are PLENTY of servicble backs that could be starters. Most teams do have a marque back, but without a good line, and unless you have a true once every 5 years Back like AP, your not going to do anything. Good Rb usualy have a good line.
[/quote]again I have to agree with you here. Your last couple of posts have been rational and I don't like it

[BenMir]

So Yanda is top notch. Harewood > Williams, but Williams played against the Texans front 7 so it might matter. Birk gives up way too much pressure. Oher actually grades better than KO and I think we need to remember something - graded 40 out of 64 tackles. 32 of them are right tackles, who, I believe, have usually an easier task in pass blocking and this leads to a better grade.

[Tank 92]

Oher looks like he's finally getting it. Maybe he will continue to improve and be who he is supposed to be.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1351114361' post='1202894']

Ozzie overpays players all the time, but that's not really the point of this thread. [u][b]Suggs is my favorite player on the team, but Ozzie ruined all 3-4 OLB contract numbers for every team by caving to him in contract negotiations[/b][/u]. Ray Lewis' deal is undeniably and laughably overpriced.

[/quote]
As opposed to what? Letting the best 34 OLB in the league walk in the prime of his career? Suggs knew his value, that's why he got pissed when he was franchised as an OLB with a lower pay grade, than a DE. He called Baltimore on it and Ozzie split the difference of OLB and DE with Suggs and gave him more. Suggs quite literally held ALL of the chips in that negotiation, there was NOTHING Ozzie could point to as a negative in Suggs' play.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1351116106' post='1202926']


Ouch! I knew he wasn't good at pass-pro but 4 sacks? Jeez...... And he's doesn't have to pass block nearly as much as the other guys
[/quote]ive been saying for a long time he's one of the worst in the league. I don't understand why they don't have leach in blocking on passing downs more often. He can catch from the backfield so they'd still have to respect him.

The only running backs worse than him are, from worst to best, McFadden, foster, reggie bush and Michael bush, then rice. Good for 50th blocking rb in the league.

[berad]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351116479' post='1202938']
ive been saying for a long time he's one of the worst in the league. I don't understand why they don't have leach in blocking on passing downs more often. He can catch from the backfield so they'd still have to respect him.

The only running backs worse than him are, from worst to best, McFadden, foster, reggie bush and Michael bush, then rice. Good for 50th blocking rb in the league.
[/quote]

They did have Leach in on at least one passing situation I saw, he was blocking in the shotgun and Rice was watching on the sidelines.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1351116471' post='1202937']
As opposed to what? Letting the best 34 OLB in the league walk in the prime of his career? Suggs knew his value, that's why he got pissed when he was franchised as an OLB with a lower pay grade, than a DE. He called Baltimore on it and Ozzie split the difference of OLB and DE with Suggs and gave him more. Suggs quite literally held ALL of the chips in that negotiation, there was NOTHING Ozzie could point to as a negative in Suggs' play.
[/quote]

Of course not, Suggs walking would have been bad. I attribute some of what went wrong there to the foolish labeling of him as a 'hybrid'. It doesn't changed the fact that he got an unprecedented salary that rose salaries not just for hybrid guys, it rose it for all 3-4 OLBs. In today's league, that contract really hurts.

We're getting derailed though, Ozzie's contract management is something for another thread.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351116043' post='1202924']
Hey have charged 4 sacks to ray rice.
[/quote]

Any idea when those 4 sacks came from? I can only remember one sack being on Rice.

I also remember seeing Harewood beat more often that 3 occassions. Normally I have complete faith in PFF but some of these numbers seem off.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1351116733' post='1202940']


They did have Leach in on at least one passing situation I saw, he was blocking in the shotgun and Rice was watching on the sidelines.
[/quote]pierce from what I've seen is a decent blocker as well. Granted hes only had 9 pass blocks accoridn to pff. He appears better than rice, but that's not saying much

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1351117340' post='1202946']


Any idea when those 4 sacks came from? I can't remember one sack being on Rice.

I also remember seeing Harewood beat more often that 3 occassions. Normally I have complete faith in PFF but some of these numbers seem off.
[/quote]cinci and philli 1 and 2 against Cleveland is his four. It's hard to attribute sacks sometimes, unless its clear as day a guy gets best one on one.

Oher wasn't charged with he ware sack even though ware was his man for example, because it wasn't his fault.

[codizzle]

[quote name='BenMir' timestamp='1351114335' post='1202893']

Mind posting them? I also trust PFF more
[/quote]
Nvm.. Guess I was wrong

[gabefergy]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1351117663' post='1202951']
cinci and philli 1 and 2 against Cleveland is his four. It's hard to attribute sacks sometimes, unless its clear as day a guy gets best one on one.

Oher wasn't charged with he ware sack even though ware was his man for example, because it wasn't his fault.
[/quote]

Yeah, I went back and watched the plays. The Philly sack was definitely on Rice as was the Cinci sack (although Rice had 2 guys he had to block). Both were LB blitzes, Cinci was a LB and a safety. Against Cleveland 1 sack was marginal, it resulted in a loss of 0 yards, but was also a LB blitz. The last sack I would only partially attribute to Rice, He actually blocked his guy, a DB, pretty well, but Flacco was flushed into the pressure because a Dlineman was allowed to basically come free.

So, I would say that at least 2 of the sacks were completely on Rice. He struggles against 250+ LBs that come flying off the edge.