Merged: No-Huddle Discussions

[ellicottraven]

The title says it all folks. We face a conundrum in that the no-huddle is so fast paced that we typically lose the time of possession battle. Over the past couple of weeks we have held the ball on offense 1/3rd of the time literally. That is no way to help an already hurting defense.

However, the no-huddle if executed correctly can put the points on the board and it will still let us win close games - such as the Dallas game. But, I strongly believe we are not experienced enough as an offense to execute it on the road like Brady does. Flacco is not quite Brady yet. So why do we insist on the no huddle on the road? Don't understand it, but maybe some of you and Cam Cameron can explain??

[admartian]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1350944092' post='1200950']
The title says it all folks. We face a conundrum in that the no-huddle is so fast paced that we typically lose the time of possession battle. Over the past couple of weeks we have held the ball on offense 1/3rd of the time literally. That is no way to help an already hurting defense.

However, the no-huddle if executed correctly can put the points on the board and it will still let us win close games - such as the Dallas game. But, I strongly believe we are not experienced enough as an offense to execute it on the road like Brady does. Flacco is not quite Brady yet. So why do we insist on the no huddle on the road? Don't understand it, but maybe some of you and Cam Cameron can explain??
[/quote]We insist because Cam Cameron insists.

There is no other reason to not mix it up aside form Cam. The Texans were giving us short stuff, yet we persisted with the bombs, knowing full well that's what the Texans were covering aggressively.

Every team in the league knows we have these routes, and these routes only:
- The rolls to the flats outside to either Torrey or Pitta/Dickson.
- Deep to Torrey or Jacoby (on a simple Go route and nothing else)
- Outs to Q or Pitta.
- The short hook/screen to Rice.

There's really not much else to defend apart from that. Couple that our line is average at best, and it's fairly easy to disrupt this offence - especially on the road.

Any offence won't work if you don't have time, and if your WRs can't get separation It even makes it worse if your OC does not have a plan B, or is too stubborn to admit Plan A's failure and resort to alternatives...

[Moderator 3]

There is no requirement for the no huddle to be fast. Time can be run off lining up or under center.

[SizzleSuggs55]

You can control the time possession in the no huddle, actually its easy... it's all about rhythm, speed it up, then slow it down for a few plays, then speed it up again. The problem is cam has a quick strike approach to our no huddle, even on the road when Ray Rice averages 4 or 5 yards a carry, he throws the ball 7 times in a row, and fast, putting our already exhausted defense back on the field. Please get some rhythm and tempo to our no huddle, thats what it is lacking.

[redrum52]

The problem is that if you are going to have quick drives you need to at least put up points. When it works teams usually try to play your game and fall into your trap. Its about sustaining drives and scoring. If you do that nothing else matters. Makes our defenses job easier and puts pressure on the opposition

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1350944092' post='1200950']
The title says it all folks. We face a conundrum in that the no-huddle is so fast paced that we typically lose the time of possession battle. [u][b]Over the past couple of weeks we have held the ball on offense 1/3rd of the time literally. That is no way to help an already hurting defense.[/b][/u]

However, the no-huddle if executed correctly can put the points on the board and it will still let us win close games - such as the Dallas game. But, I strongly believe we are not experienced enough as an offense to execute it on the road like Brady does. Flacco is not [s]quite[/s] Brady [s]yet[/s]. So why do we insist on the no huddle on the road? Don't understand it, but maybe some of you and Cam Cameron can explain??
[/quote]

here is a brief article that speaks to this...

http://www.sbnation.com/2012/10/22/3537052/ravens-texans-patriots-jets-nfl-week-7-monday-morning-jones

[b]Who were those guys in Ravens jerseys?[/b] Welcome to 2012, when the Ravens allow an opposing team to hold the ball for 38:16 and give up 181 yards on the ground while [url="http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2012/10/21/3535082/texans-ravens-2012-score-results"]losing 43-13[/url]. Seeing how it's the third straight week they surrendered that many rushing yards -- and the first time happened before Ray Lewis and Haloti Ngata got hurt -- it's safe to say this is just who they are, even if it's unfamiliar. [u][i][b]That means there's no way in the world they can beat anyone if Joe Flacco throws picks and Ray Rice only gets nine carries. Baltimore can't lean on this defense. It must do the only thing it can to hide it -- keep it off the field. [/b][/i][/u] There were but so many options after the Ravens got down 20 points, [u][i][b]but will offensive coordinator Cam Cameron stop forcing a pass-first philosophy on a team that has to run to win?[/b][/i][/u] Does anyone think, right now, Flacco is ready to put a team on his back? [u][i][b]Rice is their best offensive player, and the Ravens can only go as far as he takes them.[/b][/i][/u]

^ imo, that is a hard pill for most people in here to swallow but it is playing out before our eyes.

~Mili

[rlh445]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1350944092' post='1200950']
The title says it all folks. We face a conundrum in that the no-huddle is so fast paced that we typically lose the time of possession battle. Over the past couple of weeks we have held the ball on offense 1/3rd of the time literally. That is no way to help an already hurting defense.

However, the no-huddle if executed correctly can put the points on the board and it will still let us win close games - such as the Dallas game. But, I strongly believe we are not experienced enough as an offense to execute it on the road like Brady does. Flacco is not quite Brady yet. So why do we insist on the no huddle on the road? Don't understand it, but maybe some of you and Cam Cameron can explain??
[/quote]

The no huddle is supposed to keep guys away from Flacco and keep opposing defenses tired, which ties into the first thing. The thinking is this: 'We keep defenses really tired so they can't expose the horrible Oline we have so Joe has time to make things happen,' which would be really great if we were doing screens, more slants and some bootlegs. We aren't. We're doing the no huddle and going for long developing plays which is exposing our offensive line and making Joe scared because our Oline sucks right now. If we had GOOD plays, like screening Rice, slanting Pitta and Torrey and basically getting rid of the ball at good intervals, we could be running circles aroudn teams. We're not, so we're not.

[Ravenseconbeast]

[quote name='ellicottraven' timestamp='1350944092' post='1200950']
The title says it all folks. We face a conundrum in that the no-huddle is so fast paced that we typically lose the time of possession battle. Over the past couple of weeks we have held the ball on offense 1/3rd of the time literally. That is no way to help an already hurting defense.

However, the no-huddle if executed correctly can put the points on the board and it will still let us win close games - such as the Dallas game. But, I strongly believe we are not experienced enough as an offense to execute it on the road like Brady does. Flacco is not quite Brady yet. So why do we insist on the no huddle on the road? Don't understand it, but maybe some of you and Cam Cameron can explain??
[/quote]

Your right. In the recent article, the coaches said they'll be analyzing this problem directly. Both Cam & Dean Pees will evaluate themselves with the tape. I think Ravens can use no-huddle, but not at a 24/7 pace. Be flexible. Use it when you can take advantage of it, and if it doesnt, slow it down and kill the time and constnatly communicate with each other.

Flacco (unfortunately) isnt good enough to attack, scheme, and contantly outwit defensive schemes. He has hard time attacking the ball to the opponents defense, and doesnt have to ability to pin point their weakness to beat them swith all out air attack.

More than likely, we'll go back to doing what worked last year. That is after several failing pass happy offense, we dialed it down and made ourselves a rin-first team. When run game opens up and proves our offense can stay on field, then that will naturally open up the field. Which in turn can give Flacco a good room to air an attack.

Maybe the coaches were really confident in Flacco and just 'gave him the what to do' with an offense this srarting season, similar to last starting season. But it just wasnt meant to be.

We'll now utilize and use what is most effective, and use schemes that are proven to work. That way we force the opponent to make their mistake and force them to win us, not force force oursleves to lose.


Whatever it is, it seems like the Coaches if lucky, can really correct the mistakes and insert the right product on field to make us a winning team this year. Bye week couldnt have come at a better time.

[arnie_uk]

The no huddle has nothing to do with it. We can't convert 3rd downs. Defense can't stop them.

[Corvus]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1350977285' post='1201424']
The no huddle has nothing to do with it. We can't convert 3rd downs. Defense can't stop them.
[/quote]

This has been a huge part of the problem. Don't get me wrong, our players simply aren't executing when it matters most. But it seems like our defense can't stop 3rd downs and most of the time it happens, it seems were in some type of largely zone coverage...the offense can't get third down conversions not only because of lack of execution, but because as others said, every team knows our 5-6 passing routes we run EVERY play. I hate to be back on the bash the coordinators bandwagon, but Cameron and Pees are the easiest way to go about fixing this. Not saying they both need to be fired midseason, but ADJUST and ADAPT your schemes, make sure you're playing to your teams' strengths, not just what you wanna run.

[ravensfan160]

No-huddle isn't the problem play-calling is. We used to be one of the best road teams in the NFL because we brought two things that always travel well...defense and a running game. Now we have no defense and we choose not to use our running game.

You would think after a year and a half Cam would have realized that throwing the ball more isn't the answer on the road.

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='ravensfan160' timestamp='1350994354' post='1201471']
No-huddle isn't the problem play-calling is. [i][u][b]We used to be one of the best road teams in the NFL because we brought two things that always travel well...defense and a running game. Now we have no defense and we choose not to use our running game.[/b][/u][/i]

You would think after a year and a half Cam would have realized that throwing the ball more isn't the answer on the road.
[/quote]

great point!

~Mili

[ellicottraven]

I think the answer to the problem may just be to get back to the 'run first till they stop us' mentality. This eats up the clock simply because we have a great back in Rice. This in turn allows our defense to be rested and puts pressure on the opposing side to attack by throwing more and hopefully make mistakes. That was our formula that helped get us into the playoffs 4 times in a row. If we need to make it 5, then we need to reinvent ourselves during the bye...

[The Raven]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1350977285' post='1201424']
The no huddle has nothing to do with it. We can't convert 3rd downs. Defense can't stop them.
[/quote]

This!!!

Converting third downs is possibly the most important aspect of offensive football. Obviously, you can't continue a drive without converting third downs. We need to improve most in this area.

[da#1ravensfan]

The main reason we dont have great time of possession is that we cant stop the run and get 3 and outs on defense.

The first 4 games when we were decent at stopping the run, the offense was putting up on average 30 points per game.

When we were getting gashed against the run these past 3 games we struggled to score.

Bottom line the more stops or turnovers you get on defense gives your offense a better chance to execute and control the game with the no huddle.

Also, the offensive line has to get much better very quickly!!!!

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='da#1ravensfan' timestamp='1351007780' post='1201638']
The main reason we dont have great time of possession is that we cant stop the run and get 3 and outs on defense.
[/quote]
I agree and would add that our corners are incapable of contesting 3rd down passes. It seems every time the opposing QB drops back its simple pitch and catch with his receivers. Cary Williams has been particularly disappointing. If I remember correctly he had something like 20+ pass deflections last year.

[Juviebest]

Cam can't adapt...I don't care if Harbs said he's going to re-evaluate things or not. Nothing is going to change until Cam is fired. It's the same garbage as last year...not being able to adapt speaks volumes of Cam as a coach. He pulled the same crap in Miami as a head coach.

[nextgen_RavensFan]

We need consistency and cam decides to change the offense in the middle of the season. I honestly do not understand how changing mid stream can help at all. The no huddle could have helped a lot with the Offensive line we have. A tired defense gets lets pressure and lets face it our Oline needs any help it can get.

Although back to running the ball i like a lot and it keeps our defense off the field so i guess it is a win.

Is our weakest link the offense or the defense ?

[UMDan]

Yes but I think running less no huddle may help our defense out quite a bit with more time off the field. I see the benefits and at times the no huddle has looked great, but we're not able to really get it going on the road enough for me to say that it should be something we stick with. Plus, this allows us to get Leach and Rice more involved.

[The Raven]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1351012219' post='1201741']
We need consistency and cam decides to change the offense in the middle of the season. I honestly do not understand how changing mid stream can help at all. The no huddle could have helped a lot with the Offensive line we have. A tired defense gets lets pressure and lets face it our Oline needs any help it can get.

Although back to running the ball i like a lot and it keeps our defense off the field so i guess it is a win.

Is our weakest link the offense or the defense ?
[/quote]

The weakest link is the defense and it's blatantly obvious.

I'd imagine the reason for less no huddle is the fact that we have lost the TOP battle in all but one game. TOP is one of the most underrated stats for an offense. A high TOP keeps your defense rested and the other offense off the field. Cam isn't changing the offense. The scheme remains the same. It's just becoming slower paced, and perhaps for good reason. Our defense is suffering, and a higher TOP could help lessen the defensive issues.

When our best offensive players are a running back and a fullback, it makes sense to do. When our offensive line is built to run block, it makes even more sense.

[jimmypowder]

The no huddle would be great if we had the defense we had last year .I think that's what we were
relying on when we set it up this year .

Sadly, our defense has more holes in it this year then Swiss cheese .

Due to this , I think we have to run less no huddle and hope we can get consistent first downs
to keep our defense off the field . Run the ball more as well.

Otherwise, this season is gonna end badly .

[Militant X 1]

personally, i feel that we need to get back to...*in my Deion Sanders voice*...."Doing what we do!" that's running the football, moving the chains and controlling the clock! where are our pitches, sweeps and tosses? where are our HB stretches, draws and counter runs? with that type of scheme there also needs to be a nice mix and balance of PA's, quick screens, slants, drags and curl routes and then a few occasional deep shots down the field to keep the defense honest. we have the weapons to be a dominant offense and it is absolutely mind boggling to try to understand why we're not!.

the thing that i liked the most about that game against the texans was the fact that the texan's know who they are! they didn't deviate from their "zone" run scheme at all! why not? cause that is who they are! they put the ball into their best player's hands. they gave the rock to Arian Foster and Ben Tate. and yet, their running game opens up the passing game for Andre Johnson, Kevin Walter and Owen Daniels to get their touches. amazing! the Ravens need to get back to doing what they did...establish the run but with a lil' more creativity...Cam!

~Mili

[The Raven]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1351016569' post='1201836']
personally, i feel that we need to get back to...*in my Deion Sanders voice*...."Doing what we do!" that's running the football, moving the chains and controlling the clock! where are our pitches, sweeps and tosses? where are our HB stretches, draws and counter runs? with that type of scheme there also needs to be a nice mix and balance of PA's, quick screens, slants, drags and curl routes and then a few occasional deep shots down the field to keep the defense honest. we have the weapons to be a dominant offense and it is absolutely mind boggling to try to understand why we're not!.

the thing that i liked the most about that game against the texans was the fact that the texan's know who they are! they didn't deviate from their "zone" run scheme at all! why not? cause that is who they are! they put the ball into their best player's hands. they gave the rock to Arian Foster and Ben Tate. and yet, their running game opens up the passing game for Andre Johnson, Kevin Walter and Owen Daniels to get their touches. amazing! the Ravens need to get back to doing what they did...establish the run but with a lil' more creativity...Cam!

~Mili
[/quote]

Agree!!!!! Can we please run the ball more?! Give the ball to Rice and Pierce! Let me see some outside zone plays! We have made a killing with the outside zone this year, so why stop?

[ravens rule]

Running the football effectively helps Joe, the D, and gives us the best chance to win. Come out with a running gameplan and stick with it unless for obvious reasons.

[Ravenslifer]

The problem I see isn't the no huddle, it's the same thing over again - the playcalling. We do the same thing almost every time, run, run, pass deep, when we pass on first down it's deep, runs are almost always to the same place. etc. The problem is that this team is perfectly set up IMO to run a short passing game, make a lot of first downs, and eat up the clock while moving the chains consistently. But that's never what we do. It's always about the big plays, and then when we get behind trying low percentage plays to get back in the game. If you watch the best quarterbacks in the league, even guys with strong arms like Peyton Manning, a lot of what they do is short passes that pick up first downs and move the chains. That just doesn't seem to be the philosophy of this offense.

[admartian]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1351021619' post='1201911']
The problem I see isn't the no huddle, it's the same thing over again - the playcalling. We do the same thing almost every time, run, run, pass deep, when we pass on first down it's deep, runs are almost always to the same place. etc. The problem is that this team is perfectly set up IMO to run a short passing game, make a lot of first downs, and eat up the clock while moving the chains consistently. But that's never what we do. It's always about the big plays, and then when we get behind trying low percentage plays to get back in the game. If you watch the best quarterbacks in the league, even guys with strong arms like Peyton Manning, a lot of what they do is short passes that pick up first downs and move the chains. That just doesn't seem to be the philosophy of this offense.
[/quote]Absolutely this.

It was "What the heck?" in the Philly game when they didn't use high percentage plays. I don't even want to know what goes on in Cam's head..

[Guest RBates]

I've been saying this for four years at least. This is Ray Rice's team. Our offensive game has to run through him.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1351026644' post='1202000']
I've been saying this for four years at least. This is Ray Rice's team. Our offensive game has to run through him.
[/quote]

Except we've seen the offense perform well even when he saw limited touches. And we've also seen games where he got his touches but the offense still struggled.

Him seeing only 9 carries against the Texans was just moronic but he's not the end-all-be-all for the offense.

[nk02442]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1351027313' post='1202011']
Except we've seen the offense perform well even when he saw limited touches. And we've also seen games where he got his touches but the offense still struggled.

Him seeing only 9 carries against the Texans was just moronic but he's not the end-all-be-all for the offense.
[/quote]
Who was the last RB to carry his team to the superbowl? Get back to me with that

[nk02442]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1351017132' post='1201848']
Agree!!!!! Can we please run the ball more?! Give the ball to Rice and Pierce! Let me see some outside zone plays! We have made a killing with the outside zone this year, so why stop?
[/quote]

That MIGHT work if we have run blocking or RB of Foster/Tates skill...........I should be a millionare and get to sleep with a different playboy bunny each night, but that doesnt mean it will is or going to happen.