Merged: Ozzie / Past Drafts Discussions

[nextgen_RavensFan]

I am sorry i questioned Oz in a previous post as he has been taking quite a beating on TV, Radio and here.

All GM's have bad picks and over all he has averaged 1 good player per draft if you consider the great draft years and bad ones. I just wish he would stop being like and old lady who wants that 3 for 1 deal and keep dropping down to settle for less talent but more players. Would rather have 1 car that runs great then 3 that wont even start.

His Quantity over Quality rule these last few drafts have been killing us.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Purple_ICE 81' timestamp='1350923036' post='1200350']
Shoot I remember in 2008 when Rice played similar to how pierce is this season. I knew Rice had play making potential, and in a couple of years I feel safe saying Bernard Pierce will be the new Ray Rice
[/quote]

Hopefully that means we can trade Ray Rice to some foolish GM in the future and use that cap relief to sign something useful, i.e. an OL instead of a RB.

[flynismo]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1351021583' post='1201908']
Hopefully that means we can trade Ray Rice to some foolish GM in the future and use that cap relief to sign something useful, i.e. an OL instead of a RB.
[/quote]

I'd hate to lose Rice, but I'm a huge Pierce fan, and think he would be great as a replacement for Ray. If we could get a stud OL or DL for him, or a 1st and 2nd. then yeah, pull the trigger

[gabefergy]

IMO, Ozzie has done a great job in drafting offensive players in recent years. We have a lot of guys on that side of the ball that are playing at a high level and some others like Pierce, KO, and Doss that have a lot of potential to be very good players.

Where Ozzie has missed is in drafting defensive players. Only Webb has been a real impact player. Guys like McPhee and Kruger have been solid but not spectacular. Cody is awful and Kindle was a complete miss although Ozzie cant really be blamed for that as it was unrelated to football. I still think Jimmy Smith can be an elite player, he has all the tools and has in fact played very well at times. Upshaw will be a better JJ when all is said and done, but he may never shine as a pass-rusher.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1351021717' post='1201914']
I'd hate to lose Rice, but I'm a huge Pierce fan, and think he would be great as a replacement for Ray. If we could get a stud OL or DL for him, or a 1st and 2nd. then yeah, pull the trigger
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly, if you've got someone else who can get you what you need it makes sense to beef up at another position. Nothing personal against Rice, that's just smart business.

[FerrariFan87]

Are people really suggesting that we trade Ray Rice? Wow...

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1351034589' post='1202128']
Are people really suggesting that we trade Ray Rice? Wow...
[/quote]

Not this season, but in the future if we're comfortable at the RB position it would make sense to get some value out of a player getting older with a lot of tread off the tires and a big cap hit. Sentimentality is what makes this FO weak and locks the team into bad veteran contracts, no player isn't expendable and no player is above the good of the team.

[FerrariFan87]

No GM will trade anything of real value for a RB past his prime, which is when we'd try to move Rice. He's not going anywhere.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1351035910' post='1202153']
No GM will trade anything of real value for a RB past his prime, which is when we'd try to move Rice. He's not going anywhere.
[/quote]
You miss Al Davis?

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1351035910' post='1202153']
No GM will trade anything of real value for a RB past his prime, which is when we'd try to move Rice. He's not going anywhere.
[/quote]

Would he be past his prime in two years? I don't think so, and that'd be more than enough time to evaluate Pierce fully. I don't think Ozzie would do it because his track record proves he doesn't view football decisions in the way I do. That doesn't mean it's not a great, albeit a temporarily unpopular, football move.

[52liveforever]

In 2009 we get the following:
Michael Oher: solid, just needs to stay at RT
Paul Kruger: solid, not an every down player but contributes..
Ladarius Webb: awesome
Jason Phillips: Loss
Davon Drew: Loss
Cedric Peerman: Loss

! out of 6 aint bad right, LMAO

2010
sergio kindle: Loss
terrance cody: ok, he givs depth and good against run just not an every down player
ed dickson: drops to many passes, but is still good for a big play here and there
dennis pitta: good
david reed: Loss
arthur jones: playing out of position, he is a 4-3 DT.
ramon harewood: win considering the pick we got him. he has impressed me alot this year.

2 out of 7 aint bad

2011

Jimmy smith: playing probably the most difficult position in the nfl. it takes corners a few years to get up to speed in the nfl. webb wasnt a shut down corner his first yr out. neither was revis. wait until the end of the seasn and next yr to make your verdict on him
torrey smith: excellent
Jah Reid: unknown. i say give him his shot.
Tandon Doss: Good
Cjykie Brown: unknown, but what ive seen i like. hes a good corner to have on the back end of the depth chart
Pernell Mcphee: OK
Tyrod Taylor: Unknown
Anthony Allen: Unfinished project

4 out of 7 aint bad

2012
Courtney Upshaw: unknown, i think he is looking pretty good. by the end of the season i think he'll start playing at a high level
Kelechi Osemele: huge win. watch this kid \, he is a monster. i woudlnt mind putting him on left side and having oher on right.
Bernard Pierce: another huge win, he makes all of his runs count. in a coupl yrs he could be the #1.
Gino Gradkowski: Unknown
Christian Thompson: unknown
Asa Jackson: unknown
Tommy Streeter: Loss
Deangelo Tyson: Loss

[baltravens]

I have thought about this for a while. Last year I argued that the Ravens window closed after the 2012 season. (Yeah, Cundiff's kick closed it out.) My major contention is that our drafts over the last five years have hurt our team. I mean, they have not been that productive. Here is a look:

[u]YEAR[/u] [u]EVALUATION[/u]
2012
Upshaw-rd. 2 N/A
Osemele-rd. 2 N/A
Pierce-rd. 3 N/A

2011
J. Smith-rd. 1 average to above average
T. Smith-rd. 2 very good
Reid-rd. 3 below average

2010
Kindle-rd. 2 weak
Cody-rd. 2 average
Dickson-rd. 3 above average

2009
Oher-rd.1 above average
Kruger-rd. 2 below average
Webb-rd. 3 excellent

2008
Flacco-rd. 1 excellent
Rice-rd. 2 excellent to all-pro
Gooden-rd. 3 weak


[u]EVALUATION CRITERIA[/u]
Excellent to All-Pro
Excellent
Very Good
Above Average
Average
Below Average
Weak
Poor


We struck it rich in the 2008 draft, but besides Ladarius Webb in the 2009 draft we are grading out "average" with our high draft picks. Torrey Smith is a productive starter, and although Oher starts, I expect more from a first-round draft choice. Players like Kruger and Jimmy Smith have not taken the next step.

EDIT: Changed Gooden's evaluation from poor to weak.

[SuggsBarber]

I think you're being generous with Jimmy Smith.He may pan out,but as a first round pick, he's no Chris McCallister.I'd settle for Duane Starks.

[K-Dog]

That actually is a failry decent analysis.
That is to say I agree. Take it for what its worth.
Although I will disagree that they have [i]hurt[/i] the team.

It would be intresting to see the whole class of those perspective seasons.

Bottom line is each and every pick is a shot in the dark. From round one till the end.
Keep in mind how many quality undrafted free agents we have found.

[wademan2636]

I'm actually pretty sold on the draftees this year. Upshaw has been great for a rookie, stuffing up running lanes. Pierce runs like Ricky Williams, and barely ever loses yards. And Osemele is my favorite. He'll be a pro bowler in the near future. He just needs to move to guard first.

The only pick that truly was terrible was Kindle. From now on, beer should be banned at parties where stairs are present.

I'm also not a big Cody fan. I think he is overweight and gets pushed around too much.

[Bravens292]

2010 and 2011 are head scratchers. Other than Pitta and Smith, we've gotten nothing out of those drafts. 2012 looks like a more promising draft.

[Ed_Reed20]

Based on your evaluation criteria, Kindle was a better pick than Gooden. Even with the latter's poor play on defense, that's laughable.

Regardless, this is nothing profound. We've discussed this in other topics created after the Texans loss. It goes well beyond the first three picks too. There havebeen far too many busts in the mid-to-late rounds going back to '08.

The young players obviously have to improve, and fast.

[Guest RBates]

Deonte Thompson? Can he please get on the field? This guy is a play maker. I'm so mad we are not using him.

Terrence Cody and Kruger have been major disappointments . You can throw Kindle in there also. Doss= average

Jimmy Smith gets this year's pass. His game is not on a first round talents level yet though.

[display name]

Would you please list Pitta? ASAP
And Reid is not below average. Put an N/A if you want, but he's done a decent job when healthy. Same with Gooden. And why on God's green Earth is Kindle not poor?
Oh and I would call Oher average. He gets pushed around and is often penalized.

[Cville-Raven]

[quote name='Bravens292' timestamp='1351038046' post='1202188']
2010 and 2011 are head scratchers. Other than Pitta and Smith, we've gotten nothing out of those drafts. 2012 looks like a more promising draft.
[/quote]I don't think you can call the 2011 draft a head scratcher, we got steals in round rounds 1,2,4,and 5 at the time. Jimmy Smith is going to need time, he was the BPA at the time. Not to mention we got a guy in the second round who would have probably been selected in the top 15 based on his rookie season last year. The 2010 draft could have been good but since the prime guy in Kindle suffered such a horrific injury; it will probably be recognized as one of the worst drafts in the franchises history; the only really good player from that draft is Pitta. Dickson and Cody have shown flashes, but nothing consisitent.

[SuRihtanil]

It doesn't help Ravens change D coordinators like I change pants, we have went through many different staff members in recent years.

[redlobster]

[quote name='SuRihtanil' timestamp='1351041770' post='1202231']
It doesn't help Ravens change D coordinators like
I change pants, we have went through many different staff members in recent years.
[/quote]

I can guarentee nobody will hire Dean Pees away from the Ravens this year, lol.

[baltravens]

[quote name='display name' timestamp='1351040623' post='1202215']
Would you please list Pitta? ASAP
And Reid is not below average. Put an N/A if you want, but he's done a decent job when healthy. Same with Gooden. And why on God's green Earth is Kindle not poor?
Oh and I would call Oher average. He gets pushed around and is often penalized.
[/quote]
I chose to go with the first three rounds because they seem to be the most crucial to a team that is trying to reach a Super Bowl. Pitta was drafted in the fourth round. I want to add, I tended to be more demanding in my evaluation because this is the NFL; however, I changed Gooden's evaluation to be more fair.

[wademan2636]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1351040323' post='1202210']
Deonte Thompson? Can he please get on the field? This guy is a play maker. I'm so mad we are not using him.

Terrence Cody and Kruger have been major disappointments . You can throw Kindle in there also. Doss= average

Jimmy Smith gets this year's pass. His game is not on a first round talents level yet though.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you about everything.

Cody has been terrible. He creates no push for the linebackers to make tackles. And Kruger plays like a 14 year old girl. He's a complete wus.

Jimmy Smith has the tools to be 1st round quality. He's big, physical, and quick. However, his problem is mental. He gets beat due to his mental lapses. Eventually, he'll fix this problem, and he'll finally be worth of the first round pick.

And Thompson will be solid. However, I don't think he is as good as the 4 receivers we regularly use. And Jacoby Jones has been the better kickoff returner this year. He gashed the Texans last week on returns.

[kassaiscool]

This is why the ravens have been sucking so bad on defense. Their is gonna have to be a redraft of the same positions.

[ravensfan160]

[quote name='52liveforever' timestamp='1351036860' post='1202167']
In 2009 we get the following:
Michael Oher: solid, just needs to stay at RT
Paul Kruger: solid, not an every down player but contributes..
Ladarius Webb: awesome
Jason Phillips: Loss
Davon Drew: Loss
Cedric Peerman: Loss

! out of 6 aint bad right, LMAO

2010
sergio kindle: Loss
terrance cody: ok, he givs depth and good against run just not an every down player
ed dickson: drops to many passes, but is still good for a big play here and there
dennis pitta: good
david reed: Loss
arthur jones: playing out of position, he is a 4-3 DT.
ramon harewood: win considering the pick we got him. he has impressed me alot this year.

2 out of 7 aint bad

2011

Jimmy smith: playing probably the most difficult position in the nfl. it takes corners a few years to get up to speed in the nfl. webb wasnt a shut down corner his first yr out. neither was revis. wait until the end of the seasn and next yr to make your verdict on him
torrey smith: excellent
Jah Reid: unknown. i say give him his shot.
Tandon Doss: Good
Cjykie Brown: unknown, but what ive seen i like. hes a good corner to have on the back end of the depth chart
Pernell Mcphee: OK
Tyrod Taylor: Unknown
Anthony Allen: Unfinished project

4 out of 7 aint bad

2012
Courtney Upshaw: unknown, i think he is looking pretty good. by the end of the season i think he'll start playing at a high level
Kelechi Osemele: huge win. watch this kid \, he is a monster. i woudlnt mind putting him on left side and having oher on right.
Bernard Pierce: another huge win, he makes all of his runs count. in a coupl yrs he could be the #1.
Gino Gradkowski: Unknown
Christian Thompson: unknown
Asa Jackson: unknown
Tommy Streeter: Loss
Deangelo Tyson: Loss
[/quote]
Pretty fair assessment but for some of the later round guys they need time to develop and we've been a very talented and deep team so finding a roster spot can be difficult.

A guy like Cedric Peerman for example is starting to make a name for himself with the Bengals. Late round guys like that are all about potential and sometimes circumstances dictate that they meet that potential elsewhere. It happens.

Guys like Reed and Reid have been victims of injury and depth at their positions. Reed was a great KR for us minus some fumbles but if we activate him now he would be the 7th WR so he will likely stay on IR until next year. Reid is another guy who has been injured much of his time here. Injuries cannot be predicted unless they have a history of them and I don't think either guy has. I seem to recall David Reed saying he was never injured before in his football career.

Chykie Brown is an excellent special teamer for us and has some potential I think at CB.

[purplesky]

[quote name='baltravens' timestamp='1351037288' post='1202172']
I have thought about this for a while. Last year I argued that the Ravens window closed after the 2012 season. (Yeah, Cundiff's kick closed it out.) My major contention is that our drafts over the last five years have hurt our team. I mean, they have not been that productive. Here is a look:

[u]YEAR[/u] [u]EVALUATION[/u]
2012
Upshaw-rd. 2 N/A
Osemele-rd. 2 N/A
Pierce-rd. 3 N/A

2011
J. Smith-rd. 1 average to above average
T. Smith-rd. 2 very good
Reid-rd. 3 below average

2010
Kindle-rd. 2 weak
Cody-rd. 2 average
Dickson-rd. 3 above average

2009
Oher-rd.1 above average
Kruger-rd. 2 below average
Webb-rd. 3 excellent

2008
Flacco-rd. 1 excellent
Rice-rd. 2 excellent to all-pro
Gooden-rd. 3 weak


[u]EVALUATION CRITERIA[/u]
Excellent to All-Pro
Excellent
Very Good
Above Average
Average
Below Average
Weak
Poor


We struck it rich in the 2008 draft, but besides Ladarius Webb in the 2009 draft we are grading out "average" with our high draft picks. Torrey Smith is a productive starter, and although Oher starts, I expect more from a first-round draft choice. Players like Kruger and Jimmy Smith have not taken the next step.

EDIT: Changed Gooden's evaluation from poor to weak.
[/quote]
Thoughtful and objective analysis, I can only disagree with 1-2. Ozzie has to do better finding stars in the early rounds.

[lgcs27288]

This thread is a [u]loss[/u] of my time.

lol at the neg.