Merged: Ozzie / Past Drafts Discussions

[bauer77]

7 games into the 2012 season, and our half our 2012 draft is a loss? LOL. You ever heard of picks for the future? Or picks for depth? Especially with picks after the 5th round, those guys probably ain't going to get much playing time right away. No reason they should be a "loss".

[jdynamite]

I think problem is people expect every pick to become a pro-bowler or all-pro player....
Oher isn't a bust for the simple fact ( that he is playing the role that many " draft pundits " predicted a solid RT lacks consistency to be a LT or a great player, some players are what they are while others develop into great players. )

To say players from this years class and last years class are "busts or loss" already is ridiculous some of the players are just earning quality playing time.

Coaches have to coach, develop the skills of players to maximize their ability within their systems also.

Also with the defensive players we have had 3 different coordinators in 3 years

[bauer77]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1350853802' post='1198545']
Out of our next 9 games how many do you have us winning friends ? [b]I have us winning 5 and that leaves us at 10-6 and is that a play off team yes but a Super Bowl team,[/b] no way. And i was being kind with the Redskins and Raiders. The Skins have a QB that can throw and we all know how that ends. I am all for being a fan but we need some changes if we are talking Super Bowl. I do think that the Texans will meet us again in the Play offs if we make it that far and what do you see changing between now and then ?

Williams learns to cover, Cody somehow gets off of a block. We stop the run somehow ? Smith stops biting on the receivers first move ? The O'line could somehow stop the pressure and save Joe.

He might want to get out now before he ends up with a career ending injury due to the offensive line.. LOL Seriously we need help guys and it is not in just one area it is an offensive, defensive mess out there and it cannot be fixed by new coachs etc. We need TALENT !!
[/quote]


Sorry, but i had to comment on this too. Playoffs is a totally different season than the regular season. Did anyone think the Giants would win it all last year? No. But they got hot in the playoffs, and beat teams. The same thing could happen with this team in the playoffs. I think its possible we could still win 7 or 8 of the last 9 games. Yes, it will be tough with injuries, but i like to be optimistic.

[nk02442]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1350854136' post='1198562']
Uh, Im gonna be the nice one here mr negative.
Cody is a pure run stuffer, and those a hard to come by. His job is to [b]try[/b] to stop the run, and be there for extra support when the LB comes along. Cody is good. I agree with Jimmy, but there still is time. The O-Line was playing the best defense in the nfl, they would have done that to almost anyone, Aaron got sacked a lot last week. As for the talent thing
At MLB I agree
I want us to draft Teo or pick up DJohnson.
FS, we drafted one.
DE, is a glaring need, and can be solved in the draft.]
Our team is filled with talent everywhere. My point being, quit being negative.
[/quote]

You really know nothing of football.
Cody is a pretty bad NT/DT. He gets no penetration, and his tackling is weak. He cannot shed a center to save his life. When they are running up the gut and getting 8 yards a play.... your NT is doing somehting wrong.

Ozz has been pretty bad the last few years. Add to that we havent attracted any real talent at important possitions and thats why we have a avg to below avg team. Our record should be more like 2-5 based on the way we play. KC and Dal both GAVE us wins. The cin game came down to a deflected touchdown.

[nk02442]

[quote name='bauer77' timestamp='1350854629' post='1198590']
7 games into the 2012 season, and our half our 2012 draft is a loss? LOL. You ever heard of picks for the future? Or picks for depth? Especially with picks after the 5th round, those guys probably ain't going to get much playing time right away. No reason they should be a "loss".
[/quote] Considering none of our depth picks outside of webb have really developed into solid starters, he has cause for concern.

[HoldingCall]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1350851189' post='1198331']
The great Oz thread...

So lets look at the great Oz and his picks since 2009 shall we and compare them to what we have lost. Lets see how great Ozzie is. This should be fun huh..

In 2009 we get the following:
Michael Oher: Loss
Paul Kruger: Loss
Ladarius Webb: awesome
Jason Phillips: Loss
Davon Drew: Loss
Cedric Peerman: Loss

! out of 6 aint bad right, LMAO

2010
sergio kindle: Loss
terrance cody: Loss
ed dickson: Loss drops to many passes
dennis pitta: good
david reed: Loss
arthur jones: Loss
ramon harewood: so so

2 out of 7 aint bad

2011

Jimmy smith: Loss so far
torrey smith: excellent
Jah Reid: Loss
Tandon Doss: Good
Cjykie Brown: unknown
Pernell Mcphee: OK
Tyrod Taylor: Unknown
Anthony Allen: Unfinished project

4 out of 7 aint bad

2012
Courtney Upshaw: unknown
Kelechi Osemele: so far a loss
Bernard Pierce: Loss
Gino Gradkowski: Unknown
Christian Thompson: Loss
Asa Jackson: unknown
Tommy Streeter: Loss
Deangelo Tyson: Loss

I am not seeing the Oz's magic here for defensive players ? He had 2 very good drafts which i can only assume was luck now that i hav etracked his record from 2009 until now. How many defensive guys in this list actually are seeing playing time today on our team ? Yup, you now see the same thing i see. Oz was just lucky and the trust was given in hopes and faith. He is no wizard, he is or was just lucky.

He trades down to much, he gambles to save some money and yet here we are still in the hole and will need to scrape to be able to afford our QB next year and that is without improving our already terrible defense.

Sure we will be able to throw the ball but we will not be able to stop any defense from beating flacco senseless. What a wizard huh. I lost all respect for the Oz.

We might as well put names in a hat and draw them, he does not know any more then me or you. It might sting but it is the truth. In Oz we should not trust.

I could go back even further but it just gets worse and wanted to be somewhat up beat but lets just say your trust is misguided friends.
[/quote]


In 2009 we get the following:
Michael Oher: B+
Paul Kruger: C+
Ladarius Webb: A
Jason Phillips: E
Davon Drew: D- was good for special team
Cedric Peerman: D-is still a special teamer and RB for Cincy

! out of 6 aint bad right, LMAO

2010
sergio kindle: E
terrance cody: B-
ed dickson: C
dennis pitta: A
david reed: D- has some good points but not enough
arthur jones: C+
ramon harewood: B-

2 out of 7 aint bad

2011

Jimmy smith: B- I can't forget the interception in the AFC Championship game.
torrey smith: A Everything good here.
Jah Reid: unknown or maybe a D- for lack of appearance
Tandon Doss: B
Cjykie Brown: C
Pernell Mcphee: B Last season was good for him. Maybe him just need Suggs to be back.
Tyrod Taylor: Unknown
Anthony Allen: C

4 out of 7 aint bad

2012
Courtney Upshaw: B Has more to learn
Kelechi Osemele: C+
Bernard Pierce: B I actually like him but he nor Rice gets the ball in their hands enough.
Gino Gradkowski: C
Christian Thompson: D maybe unknown but that was a stupid foul committed today.
Asa Jackson: unknown - I think he has a lot in his favor but needs an opportunity.
Tommy Streeter: not a loss as far as I remember from preseason
Deangelo Tyson: unknown but finally saw him in the game today.


I decided to give each a grade based on what I've seen so far. Some previously assigned as a loss actually just need more coaching and they may improve their grade. A "C" or above is acceptable for now but is expected to show improvement or the grade drops.

[RayRicefan2720]

[quote name='bravensfan52' timestamp='1350851641' post='1198364']
How is KO a loss?
[/quote]

This^

along with pierce (who I think has done fairly well running the ball)?

Thompson hasn't even been able to prove himself. Your not giving any rookies a chance when theres only been 7 games. I'd honestly like to see your reasoning with this years rookies because it looked like you just put all your hate and anger from today and gave fresh rookies an unfair grade.

For crying out loud, streeter hasn't even played a full game

I'm not sticking up for oz, but you cant just label rooks busts who havent even had full seaons under them or haven't been giving a trying chance.

I'd alos like to hear your excuse as to why its oz's fault in regards to kindle. Sure you could say he didn't judge his chracter right,but how was oz supposed to know kindle would fall down a flight of stairs and ruin his career.

[RayRicefan2720]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1350856639' post='1198713']
Considering none of our depth picks outside of webb have really developed into solid starters, he has cause for concern.
[/quote]

ITS ONLY BEEN 7 GAMES!

Man, its like some of you expect rookies to just come in and play like Ray Lewis in his prime their first season. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't, but you can't expect them to with little experience in the NFL. Its like asking a newborn baby bird to fly right after he hatches. It just isn't going to happen unless hes a great 1st rounder (top 10 at least) or you get lucky. You have to give them some time (this years draft picks anyway)

[admartian]

What happened to our Ravens being "just as pissed as the Texans" are?

Sometimes I think our fans just whisper good things to themselves so they can sleep at night.

I thought a loss was coming, but not like the thumping we had.

#InBeforeTheGoSupportAnotherTeam lame [profanity deleted] rhetoric....

[nk02442]

[quote name='RayRicefan2720' timestamp='1350857173' post='1198726']
ITS ONLY BEEN 7 GAMES!

Man, its like some of you expect rookies to just come in and play like Ray Lewis in his prime their first season. I'm not saying they can't or shouldn't, but you can't expect them to with little experience in the NFL. Its like asking a newborn baby bird to fly right after he hatches. It just isn't going to happen unless hes a great 1st rounder (top 10 at least) or you get lucky. You have to give them some time (this years draft picks anyway)
[/quote]

OMG REALLY?

Now after your well thought out and articilated respose............. 7 games and none of the young talent has shown anything. 7 games and none of the supposed depth players who were supposed to be starters this year have done anything. 7 games and we are one of the worst defenses and offenses in the league. 7 games and nothing has changed..........

Your right it has only been 7 games but we already know everything we need to. Thanks

[admartian]

Thinking about it, I do hate the [b][i][u]stubborn over-emphasis[/u][/i][/b] on "value" by Oz. If you're gonna pick a guy, just bloody pick him, whether it's 2 or 10 spots of where he "should" go. Rather than risk him being taken by someone else.

Plus, we need to learn to trade up in the draft. Not crazy like OAK or WAS, but we can't be scared of it.

Usually, OZ is "preserving" mid to late round picks who are more often than not, do not make the team or are ST'ers at [b]best[/b].

[Crabcakes&Football]

[quote name='nextgen_RavensFan' timestamp='1350851189' post='1198331']
The great Oz thread...

So lets look at the great Oz and his picks since 2009 shall we and compare them to what we have lost. Lets see how great Ozzie is. This should be fun huh..
[/quote]

We really missed in 2010. No team gets them all right, and Ozzie himself is not infallible. Good picks often don't pan out. Luck and draft position all play a role. If you want to judge his prowess at building a team consider that we again look to be headed for the playoffs for the 5th straight year despite having the low draft position that comes with it. Sure there were some misses but there were some hits too.

[T3hRaven]

This thread isn't entirely out of order, but I'm more open to criticism of the FO and coaches than most seem to be. Ozzie drafts as well as or better than the next guy, but not all picks pan out and that's to be expected. From your list, I'd call Kruger, Philips, Drew, Peerman, Kindle, Reed, Jones, and Allen busts. The rest are too early to tell, with judgement of the 2012 class being a completely ridiculous notion at this point in time, or have contributed in the team in a significant enough way to not call them busts. That does not mean they were drafted too highly, but they were not busts.

I criticize Ozzie more for his lack of aggression (especially in free agency), poor contract management, and over-sentimentality.

[GTRavens]

People were saying the same thing after his weak 2004 and 2005 drafts. How does Ozzie respond? He strikes back with three gems in a row.

In Ozzie we trust? Yes. I like my odds much better trusting him than not trusting him.

[GTRavens]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1350860624' post='1198945']
I criticize Ozzie more for his lack of aggression (especially in free agency)
[/quote]

When will people learn this DOESN'T WORK

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='GTRavens' timestamp='1350860725' post='1198956']
When will people learn this DOESN'T WORK
[/quote]

I don't mean go out and overpay someone, but there are definitely times when signing a key big name free agent could shore up the team.

[cursona pirate]

The drat kinda works like baseball....think about it...

[Guest RBates]

Pierce has shown flashes to be a beast in the run game. K.O is a force. Defensively we are sound just need a better coordinator.

[berad]

Why are people calling guys like Peerman, Art Jones, David Reed, Allen, etc "busts"? Those are really low picks; to me, anything you get from them is gravy. Art Jones has lived up to his 157th overall status, imo...

[Ravenseconbeast]

You are wrong about Ozzie having a bust draft picks.

Look at last year, then look at this year. Its virtually the same young group of people playing ball.


The players arent playing to their potential. And the Coach & Personnel are doing terrible job reinserting their role from where they left off last year in AFCC form.

We also made a mistake letting Dean Pees becomming a head coach. He was terrible as a pass rush/linebacker coach, now his even worse as a head d-coord.

Also want to note who-ever replaced Dean Pees as linebacker coach this year equally stink I never seen our linebacker be this confused and out of place in my life.


...and secondary coach.. whoever is coaching our secondary is big FAIL.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1350860996' post='1198976']
Why are people calling guys like Peerman, Art Jones, David Reed, Allen, etc "busts"? Those are really low picks; to me, anything you get from them is gravy. Art Jones has lived up to his 157th overall status, imo...
[/quote]

Good point, it is unfair to label them busts. They haven't given us much production though, that was more my point.

[GTRavens]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1350860821' post='1198962']
I don't mean go out and overpay someone, but there are definitely times when signing a key big name free agent could shore up the team.
[/quote]

But it pretty much always involves overpaying. Look at the big name free agent signings this offseason (let's ignore our cap issues in the offseason here). How many of them weren't given salaries that were at the very least risky? I don't think you can say that for any of them. You never see us, the Pats or the Steelers in the market for those kinds of players. Yet we're the teams that keep winning.

The absolute last thing our front office should be criticized for is how we handle free agency. Truth is, we've been one of the smartest and most efficient teams in handling FA. We pick up undervalued assets almost at will - Pollard, McKinnie, Willie Anderson, Lorenzo Neal, and the list goes on. They're cheap, they're short term, and most of the time they get the job done. When they don't (Housh), we wash our hands of them without severe financial ramifications.

Also, Domonique Foxworth. That's what happens when teams spend in free agency just to fill needs.

[berad]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1350861172' post='1198993']
Good point, it is unfair to label them busts. They haven't given us much production though, that was more my point.
[/quote]

That's true too, I just relate the label 'bust' more with expectations

[GTRavens]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1350861172' post='1198993']
Good point, it is unfair to label them busts. They haven't given us much production though, that was more my point.
[/quote]

But they're not supposed to. Everything is relative - if other GMs aren't hitting on those picks, there's no reason to criticize Ozzie for doing the same. Arthur Jones has probably turned out to be one of the better 5th round picks from that draft.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='GTRavens' timestamp='1350861218' post='1198997']
But it pretty much always involves overpaying. Look at the big name free agent signings this offseason (let's ignore our cap issues in the offseason here). How many of them weren't given salaries that were at the very least risky? I don't think you can say that for any of them. You never see us, the Pats or the Steelers in the market for those kinds of players. Yet we're the teams that keep winning.

Also, Domonique Foxworth. That's what happens when teams spend in free agency just to fill needs.
[/quote]

While you have a good counter example, I don't think Tampa Bay's signing of Nicks or Jackson this off-season were risky. They might have been given a bit much, but they definitely made that team better. Same goes for Denver and Manning. There are numerous examples of people making poor free agency decisions, but if you have solid underlying evidence on a guy I don't think taking a chance here and there would be a ridiculous idea. I'm not saying be Dan Snyder, but I'd like to see a bit more aggression and I don't think that's too much to ask for.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='GTRavens' timestamp='1350860725' post='1198956']
When will people learn this DOESN'T WORK
[/quote]
List of famous examples
Dan Snyder
The Eagles
The Saints Defense (last year)
We need an agressive approach in the draft.

[berad]

[quote name='GTRavens' timestamp='1350860725' post='1198956']
When will people learn this DOESN'T WORK
[/quote]

The Jets! Difference between building a team and renting one.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1350861502' post='1199014']
List of famous examples
Dan Snyder
The Eagles
The Saints Defense (last year)
We need an agressive approach in the draft.
[/quote]

In those examples they bet far too much on free agency, using it as a way to build a team. That's not what I'm saying we should do in the slightest, I'm saying one big guy every now and again could be beneficial. I absolutely agree on the aggressive approach in the draft. We need a big hit this year, and if we have to sacrifice some other chances to move up for the big player I'm all for it.

[sticks999]

Well here is how I feel. Number one . . when you want to make a bold claim, which is fine, do so with proper spelling. To me, that says a lot right from the start. Whereas I know where you are going with this thread, I don't agree with all your decisions whether a player has been a bust or not. I cannot agree to call a player "lost" when they are starting in the NFL. So there is where I disagree. I am not saying they are a pro bowl player, best at their position or anything close to that. But, if they are a starter, they are not a loss. Call them "just acceptable" or something other than a great player, but not a loss.

[JO_75]

This thread loses credibility when you put Webb in the 2009 Draft Class, when he should have been in our amazing 2008 Draft Class as he was a third round pick that year for us.