Should Baltimore Stick to a 3-4?

[Brandon22]

Instead of the nickel packages lets stick to Man and Press coverages

[T3hRaven]

You understand those are coverage concepts, not defensive schemes right? You can run nickel and play press man.

Whether or not we should stick to the 3-4 as the base defense or try out the 4-3 is something to debate, but that's not really what you're talking about.

[jus'_crAzy]

I'm confused. You just named 3 to 4 different things that had nothing to do with each other.

3-4 = 3 down linemen, 4 linebackers
nickel = take out a linebacker, insert DB (passing situations)
Man coverage = follow and lockdown your guy
Press coverage = the defender will jam the receiver at the line of scrimmage to throw off the timing of the route

Hope that helps.

[Gordo52]

I'd like to see more 4-3 and press coverage. Even though Cary and Jimmy have been getting beat a good amount of time, they're both big and physical. I think we should play them to their strengths. It won't work though if we can't generate enough pressure.

I think we should put Upshaw on the right side of the defensive line. Ngata & Cody/Kemo in the middle, and Jones on the left side until Suggs comes back. Ellerbe at LOLB, McClain at MLB, and Kruger at ROLB. (sounds bad but maybe he can drop some weight again for us. )

I've always wanted us to become more of a 4-3 defense once Ray retires, well since he isn't here with us at the moment I think we should try it and see what happens.

I want a defense like Seattles. I know our defensive line can't generate pressure like theirs, but once Suggs and Ngata play together, I think the pressure starts to speed up for opposing QB's. Kruger isn't the most reliable option in pass coverage but it's the best we got, and imo he's faster than Upshaw.

Hell, I also like the way the Bears defense is set up. We don't have that type of personel, but it's not that far off. Imagine us running a 46 defense haha. Suggs,Jones,Cody,Kemo,McPhee/Kruger,Ngata
Upshaw Mcclain Ellerbe
Pollard Reed

If we drop players like Suggs, Kruger & Ngata in zone coverage and have our LB's play zone as well I think it could be pretty good.


Of course, it don't matter what scheme or formations we use, if we can't tackle.

[RavensAllTheWay]

I've seen people on here say we have the personnel for a 4-3, but I just don't see it. Who would play 4-3 DE opposite Suggs? Everyone we have seems too small and/or light. Upshaw/Kruger/McClellan are all better athletes, and I don't think any of them would fair well as down lineman. McPhee would have to set the edge better and regain his pass rushing beastliness of last year. 3-4 OLB seems about right for them except Pernell, even though Kruger and McClellan have to pick it up real fast.

I also don't think we have the personnel at 4-3 DT. McPhee is too light, and between Art, Kemo and Terrence, no one is making an impact at NT (and their getting blown to pieces, to be quite honest), so why would a slight change in position make all the difference?

I'd like us to have a base 4-3 in our back pocket for the sake of versatility and security, but no way do I want it to be our main base formation. I feel like we're suited better for 3-4.

[gabefergy]

This gave me a good laugh.

On a serious note, a 4-3 front might have some advantages with our current personnel. Simply put our Dline isnt getting it done. Cody/Kemo are struggling to take on one blocker, much less two and McPhee would make a great LE imo.

[gabefergy]

This gave me a good laugh.

On a serious note, a 4-3 front might have some advantages with our current personnel. Simply put our Dline isnt getting it done. Cody/Kemo are struggling to take on one blocker, much less two and McPhee would make a great LE imo.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1350692638' post='1195343']
I've seen people on here say we have the personnel for a 4-3, but I just don't see it. Who would play 4-3 DE opposite Suggs? Everyone we have seems too small and/or light. Upshaw/Kruger/McClellan are all better athletes, and I don't think any of them would fair well as down lineman. McPhee would have to set the edge better and regain his pass rushing beastliness of last year. 3-4 OLB seems about right for them except Pernell, even though Kruger and McClellan have to pick it up real fast.

I also don't think we have the personnel at 4-3 DT. McPhee is too light, and between Art, Kemo and Terrence, no one is making an impact at NT (and their getting blown to pieces, to be quite honest), so why would a slight change in position make all the difference?

I'd like us to have a base 4-3 in our back pocket for the sake of versatility and security, but no way do I want it to be our main base formation. I feel like we're suited better for 3-4.
[/quote]
Upshaw can do both. I honestly think he might be better suited at 4-3. He's not as fast as I initially thought when coming out the draft. I don't like him much in coverage, even though he hasn't made any jumping off the screen mistakes.

I think we should use it alot once Suggs comes back. McPhee would than turn into a situational pass rusher/ sub for Jones or Kemo. We might be able to stop the run, and passrush better when blitzing 4 every down. (once Suggs comes back of course).

[jus'_crAzy]

I think the Ravens' argument was that we have 4 down linemen during certain nickel packages anyways, so why bother making a big deal out of it.

[H8R]

we don't have the personell for either... LoL.

Seriously though, we could play a 46 defense(4-3 variant ) with one more decent DE.
It would help getting to the passer as both OLBs are on the strong side.
it would be especially helpful this week, it makes the zone block scheme account for each man in front of them, and keeps them from pulling as effectively .

[codizzle]

Do em like I used to do in madden custom roster so u can add your own personnel..
Run goal line formation every play an just pre set your audibles..

Audible out of goal line as last as possible and boom.. Ur opponent acts like it's rocket science.. Works everytime..


We should try it!!!

[Ravenseconbeast]

Why does this question always rise up 1000x times?


We've been a dominant defense for over a decade with 3-4. Were not going to mess around and completely revamp into a new system.

[SuRihtanil]

I think 3-4 is the best defense, it lets Ed Reed do what he does and when its done right it works to perfection. The 49ers are 3-4 look at them now, Steelers 3-4, the best D's in the NFL are 3-4. I like 4 linebackers 3 DL, linebackers are normally more athletic, the only problem is finding them. Terrel Suggs, James Harrison, Demarcus Ware those kinda OLB are HARD as heck to find. If we had 1 more Terrell Suggs type we would be nasty on the pass rush.

Pass Rush = QB making mistakes = more INTs for DBs = moreturners = more points for Ravens.

[DocMartin]

Doc Martin, imaginery defensive coordinator says
We need to address our issue of stopping the run. What we have ssen last 2 games, opposing runners picked holes and ran with full steam. Mostly the first contact was made at 2nd level with linebackers, sometimes at safety. When linebackers loose that straight angle and have to start chasing, things start looking bad - gains of 5 plus yards.
What we did in 2nd half against KC, we had 4 men on line of scrimmage and linebackers staying in their gaps, and it worked much better. We were making contact at the line of scrimmage and minimizing rushing gains from 6 yds to 3 yds, and thats what we need to do. We have to stop these teams from converting 3rd downs and getting our defense off the field.
So if it requires 4-3 so be it. And I fault Dean Peas for not realizing this against the Cowboys, he finally made adjustments at the end, but almost too little too late.
We could still use 3-4 scheme as a decoy, with one of the outside linebackers going for quarterback, but there has to be superb communication between them, so they understand to shift coverage to either side and still maintain their gaps. The main thing you have to remember about Arian Foster, is you have to meet him in the hole to tackle him. He is extremely shifty and if you let him into open space, he will go the distance.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1350705165' post='1195426']
Why does this question always rise up 1000x times?


We've been a dominant defense for over a decade with 3-4. Were not going to mess around and completely revamp into a new system.
[/quote]
Yeah because we've had dominant players for over a decade. Ray wasn't doing bad but it's not like he was his old self. No Suggs, missed tackles, it's getting pathetic.

What we're doing now isn't working. If revamping a system (somewhat) would do better than thats what needs to be done. I'm not sure if we can mae the run in the playoffs with the current defense we got

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1350692316' post='1195340']
I'd like to see more 4-3 and press coverage.

I think we should put Upshaw on the right side of the defensive line. Ngata & Cody/Kemo in the middle, and Jones on the left side until Suggs comes back. Ellerbe at LOLB, McClain at MLB, and Kruger at ROLB. (sounds bad but maybe he can drop some weight again for us. )

[/quote]

That would be horrendous...a DL that cant get pressure, and LB who are mediocre in run support...pretty much defeats the purpose of a 4-3

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='SuRihtanil' timestamp='1350706118' post='1195430']
I think 3-4 is the best defense, it lets Ed Reed do what he does and when its done right it works to perfection. [u][b]The 49ers are 3-4 look at them now, Steelers 3-4, the best D's in the NFL are 3-4[/b][/u]. I like 4 linebackers 3 DL, linebackers are normally more athletic, the only problem is finding them. Terrel Suggs, James Harrison, Demarcus Ware those kinda OLB are HARD as heck to find. If we had 1 more Terrell Suggs type we would be nasty on the pass rush.

Pass Rush = QB making mistakes = more INTs for DBs = moreturners = more points for Ravens.
[/quote]

i believe that the Packers and the Cardinals also run the 3-4.

~Mili

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='jus'_crAzy' timestamp='1350693537' post='1195351']
I think the Ravens' argument was that we have 4 down linemen during certain nickel packages anyways, so why bother making a big deal out of it.
[/quote]

Exactly. It doesn't really matter what the base defense is.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1350714648' post='1195458']
That would be horrendous...a DL that cant get pressure, and LB who are mediocre in run support...pretty much defeats the purpose of a 4-3
[/quote]
I think if Suggs comes back, and plays anywhere near what he did last year, we would start generating pressure again.
It's hard to point out players on our D who have done good vs the run but I can't say Mcclain and Upshaw have done bad...except a few missed tackles. I know it doesn't tell the full story because we're getting ran on so much, but Mcclain,Ellerbe and Upshaw are right up there in our leading tacklers, if that means anything.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='SuRihtanil' timestamp='1350706118' post='1195430']
I think 3-4 is the best defense, it lets Ed Reed do what he does and when its done right it works to perfection. The 49ers are 3-4 look at them now, Steelers 3-4,[b] the best D's in the NFL are 3-4.[/b]
[/quote]
I respectively disagree. Yeah there are a lot of great 3-4 defenses, but theres also a lot of great 4-3s. I think the Bears and Seahawks are up there with the 49ers and Texans with great defenses.

More good defenses that use the 43 are the Giants,Falcons,Lions, and even the Rams... It all comes down to personnel,execution and playcalling. So far with our defense, I gotta say our main problem has been execution for basic fundemental things. Second would be personnel, but a lot of that has to do with Sizzle being being hurt.

We can run both, but all I want is the one that works the best.

[The Raven]

[quote name='SuRihtanil' timestamp='1350706118' post='1195430']
I think 3-4 is the best defense,[b] it lets Ed Reed do what he does[/b] and when its done right it works to perfection. The 49ers are 3-4 look at them now, Steelers 3-4, the best D's in the NFL are 3-4. I like 4 linebackers 3 DL, linebackers are normally more athletic, the only problem is finding them. Terrel Suggs, James Harrison, Demarcus Ware those kinda OLB are HARD as heck to find. If we had 1 more Terrell Suggs type we would be nasty on the pass rush.

[b]Pass Rush[/b] = QB making mistakes = more INTs for DBs = moreturners = more points for Ravens.
[/quote]

He could do it more in a 4-3.

You can get a pass rush in a 4-3.

Why is there such a widespread misunderstanding that a "3-4 defense is the best defense"? The best kind of defense is the kind of defense with good personnel that can play good defense. Formation doesn't dictate whether or not the defense is good.

As for this season, stick to the 3-4. I don't know if you guys know this or not, but you simply can't implement an entirely new scheme in the middle of a season. You'd be naive to think it's possible.

Next year, I fully advocate a 4-3 defense.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1350721065' post='1195469']
I think if Suggs comes back, and plays anywhere near what he did last year, we would start generating pressure again.
[/quote]

I don't see how.

If we put him at DE, that would mean only he and Ngata are capable of generating a consistent pass rush (very bad when in a 43 you rely on your DL for the majority of QB pressures, and only two of the four guys can do it). And that still leaves us with a suspect (that's putting it politely) LB crew of McClain, Ellerbe and Kruger.

If we put him at OLB (presumably giving us Suggs, McClain and Kruger), I could be fine with that LB group, but leaves us with absolutely no pass rush due to a terrible DL that isn't built to play in a 43.

[arnie_uk]

We would need to change in the off season and draft 2 defensive lineman either system imo

[ravefan52]

[url="http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybrid"]http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybrid[/url]

[Gordo52]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1350747744' post='1195532']
I don't see how.

If we put him at DE, that would mean only he and Ngata are capable of generating a consistent pass rush (very bad when in a 43 you rely on your DL for the majority of QB pressures, and only two of the four guys can do it). And that still leaves us with a suspect (that's putting it politely) LB crew of McClain, Ellerbe and Kruger.

If we put him at OLB (presumably giving us Suggs, McClain and Kruger), I could be fine with that LB group, but leaves us with absolutely no pass rush due to a terrible DL that isn't built to play in a 43.
[/quote][quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1350747744' post='1195532']
I don't see how.

If we put him at DE, that would mean only he and Ngata are capable of generating a consistent pass rush (very bad when in a 43 you rely on your DL for the majority of QB pressures, and only two of the four guys can do it). And that still leaves us with a suspect (that's putting it politely) LB crew of McClain, Ellerbe and Kruger.

If we put him at OLB (presumably giving us Suggs, McClain and Kruger), I could be fine with that LB group, but leaves us with absolutely no pass rush due to a terrible DL that isn't built to play in a 43.
[/quote]
Maybe with the double teams Suggs is expected to get it could help other DL break out. I know so far this season our guys just can't seem to win a 1 on 1 battle, but I think with Suggs back it changes a whole lot for everyone on our defense.

That group of LB's scare me, I think we need Sizzle on the defensive line most of the time. I can't see us getting any pressure with that. - Plus Suggs looks a little bigger when he was at practice, he might be better on the line most the time.

[nk02442]

We need to spend every draft pick this year on OL and DL. I said we should have done it last year, and now its only more critical. We are fine at the skill possitions. Ravens football was always built around the trenches. Thats what made our defense so good (rod and cmac as well). The game has evolved to where you need to get pressure with 4 or you will get picked apart. Except for maybe the top5 corners, you just cant defend a WR anymore. The rules favor offense. The only want to breakup plays and distrupt the flow is getting quick pressure on the QB. That is the same reason our Oline needs improvement.

[ClintLB8]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1350692638' post='1195343']
I've seen people on here say we have the personnel for a 4-3, but I just don't see it. Who would play 4-3 DE opposite Suggs? Everyone we have seems too small and/or light. Upshaw/Kruger/McClellan are all better athletes, and I don't think any of them would fair well as down lineman. McPhee would have to set the edge better and regain his pass rushing beastliness of last year. 3-4 OLB seems about right for them except Pernell, even though Kruger and McClellan have to pick it up real fast.

I also don't think we have the personnel at 4-3 DT. McPhee is too light, and between Art, Kemo and Terrence, no one is making an impact at NT (and their getting blown to pieces, to be quite honest), so why would a slight change in position make all the difference?

I'd like us to have a base 4-3 in our back pocket for the sake of versatility and security, but no way do I want it to be our main base formation. I feel like we're suited better for 3-4.
[/quote]


Upshaw could definitely play LE and Suggs could play RE. If we switched to a 4-3, I still think we'd need a MLB and WLB.

[Blex64]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1350765448' post='1195726']
We need to spend every draft pick this year on OL and DL. I said we should have done it last year, and now its only more critical. We are fine at the skill possitions. Ravens football was always built around the trenches. Thats what made our defense so good (rod and cmac as well). The game has evolved to where you need to get pressure with 4 or you will get picked apart. Except for maybe the top5 corners, you just cant defend a WR anymore. The rules favor offense. The only want to breakup plays and distrupt the flow is getting quick pressure on the QB. That is the same reason our Oline needs improvement.
[/quote]

Shoehorning yourself into drafting specific positions is a huge recipe for failure. Please oh please don't suggest it.

[PuRock]

4-3 would be awesome if your goal is to render Cody & Kruger even more useless than they are now.

[Bltravens]

We can't do it. The reason you see teams switching to 34 defenses so often is because of the lack of quality 43 DE's coming out of college. As offensive lineman have gotten bigger the need for 43 DE to get bigger has also increased. 43 DE's need to basically be Julius Peppers, 6'3-6-6' 280-290 pounds and the most athletic player on the field. There aren't many of those guys around.

In the 34, because of the alignment you can have edge OLBs who are anywhere from 6-1'-6-4' and anywhere from 250-275 ,depending on their build, and still have a successful defense.

If you want to have a 43 defense we would have to overall the front 4 except for Suggs and Ngata. On top of that finding a Will. I said it in another thread but after seeing McPhee play now with added weight at 290 he would be useless as the DT in a 43, no explosion as the pocket collapsing DT and not enough strength to hold his ground. Kruger is too small to play 43 DE and Upshaw is too short.