All Coordinator talk merged....worst, best, other options

[Tank 92]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350334322' post='1191488']
It's not that they forgot, they're just not believing in themselves as much as they did under Pags. Personality of the coach makes a difference whether you like it or not. Pees isn't the right kind of coach for this defense.
[/quote]

You don't really believe this....... Do You?

[Gordo52]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1350333185' post='1191452']
Obviously, and the Colts now have the best defense in the NFL....oh wait.
[/quote]
To be fair Chuck has been sick.

[flynismo]

I would be sick too if I had to run the Colts

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1350334687' post='1191509']

To be fair Chuck has been sick.
[/quote]

Thats true, but even if he was perfectly healthy ( get well soon Chuck!) that defense wouldnt be a top 10 unit.

Personnel >>> scheme/coaching.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1350334482' post='1191499']
I find it hard to believe that. Especially when some Ray guy on the defense is known to be the leader of the team and quite the motivator.
[/quote] Do you believe that we had 4 letdown games after emotional victories last year? Is Ray Lewis supposed to solve that because of his pregame speech? Or is it that the Ravens thrive when they have an extra something to fight for, and when the emotion isn't there they get run over?

[hawkprey]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1350334971' post='1191515']
Thats true, but even if he was perfectly healthy ( get well soon Chuck!) that defense wouldnt be a top 10 unit.

Personnel >>> scheme/coaching.
[/quote]
Look at Houston last year gaining Wade Phillips. Look at the Rams this year and the Titans losing Fisher. Or how about the Eagles with Juan Castillo at the helm massively underperforming. Sorry, coaching means more.

[flynismo]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350335076' post='1191522']
[b]Do you believe that we had 4 letdown games after emotional victories last year? Is Ray Lewis supposed to solve that because of his pregame speech? [/b]Or is it that the Ravens thrive when they have an extra something to fight for, and when the emotion isn't there they get run over?
[/quote]

I can agree with the bolded part. We did have letdowns (although I wouldn't call the SD game a let down -- credit should be given where it is due, they were a dangerous offense who matched up to us very well), and no, Ray should not solve that because every man needs to be accountable for himself. And with that said, if Ray's personality and leadership should not matter, then why should the DC? Especially when regardless of who the DC is, we all know Ray is the boss.

[Tiz]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1350329097' post='1191329']
I'm the biggest apologist on this board for Cam Cameron, and I pick him. There are better OC's out there! I just don't know who's out there.
[/quote]

So,I understand. You know here are better coordinators out there just don't know who they are....so then the correct statement is "there's gotta be some one else"

[hawkprey]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1350335330' post='1191530']
I can agree with the bolded part. We did have letdowns (although I wouldn't call the SD game a let down -- credit should be given where it is due, they were a dangerous offense who matched up to us very well), and no, Ray should not solve that because every man needs to be accountable for himself. And with that said, if Ray's personality and leadership should not matter, then why should the DC? Especially when regardless of who the DC is, we all know Ray is the boss.
[/quote] It's not that they're not pumped up. It's just a lack of confidence in the defense and probably a lack of confidence in each other as a result. Guys up front are getting caught trying to do too much and losing gap integrity. Our ILBs are overshooting plays and hitting the wrong hole.

I can't specify exactly what's wrong with or how to fix the defense, but I can tell you that Pagano got the best out of his players and Pees is getting the worst. Call it an 11-way coincidence if you want.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350335222' post='1191526']
Look at Houston last year gaining Wade Phillips. Look at the Rams this year and the Titans losing Fisher. Or how about the Eagles with Juan Castillo at the helm massively underperforming. Sorry, coaching means more.
[/quote]

Coaching does matter but personnel is even more important. The addition of Wade was huge for Houston last year, but you could argue the addition of Watt, J.Joseph, Brooks Reed, Daniel Manning and Cushing being more healthy helped their D even more. With the Rams, not only have they benefited from Fisher taking over, they revamped their CB corps by signing Finnegan and drafting Jenkins and their pass rushers are coming into their own.

[Tiz]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1350334971' post='1191515']


Thats true, but even if he was perfectly healthy ( get well soon Chuck!) that defense wouldnt be a top 10 unit.

Personnel >>> scheme/coaching.
[/quote]

Wouldn't their improvement over last year show what a difference he makes?
Don't have to be top 10 to see improvement unless they were 11th last year.

I don't fault pees for n juries. That's life and it sucks. I do have an issue with schemes that don't generate pressure without blitzing a db. I do have an issue with poor tackling. These are things that pees can directly or indirectly effect based on his attitude and his control in practice. So we will see how things change going fwd.

As for cam. I don't mind him one bit but think flacco has a better relationship with Caldwell who will be o.c. Next yr

[Gordo52]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1350334971' post='1191515']
Thats true, but even if he was perfectly healthy ( get well soon Chuck!) that defense wouldnt be a top 10 unit.

Personnel >>> scheme/coaching.
[/quote]
I know, was only joking haha

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1350335643' post='1191540']
Coaching does matter but personnel is even more important. The addition of Wade was huge for Houston last year, but you could argue the addition of Watt, J.Joseph, Brooks Reed, Daniel Manning and Cushing being more healthy helped their D even more. With the Rams, not only have they benefited from Fisher taking over, they revamped their CB corps by signing Finnegan and drafting Jenkins and their pass rushers are coming into their own.
[/quote]
Well it's hard to find a situation where the DC changed and no players changed. (Rex Ryan, in his first year in NY, could be an example.) And you mentioned that the pass rushers were coming into their own. Is it a coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Jeff FIsher can get more out of his players than Steve Spagnulo. J.Joseph played his best ball in a while last year. Maybe it's because Phillips can get more out of Joseph than Marvin Lewis could at that point in his career. (By the way, take a look at how the Texans defense did in their two games without Phillips)

Distractions, motivations, trust, and other similar intangibles make far more of a difference than fans realize. Every year there are players who get paid and disappear. There are players who lose somebody close to them and come out balling. There are players who simply need a coaching change - any change, to start believing in their team again. Even if that replacement is Jason Garret. I'm not saying we need to cut Pees loose mid-season, and in fact, I think Suggs taking over this team is going to be a huge morale boost. I'm saying that the players need a coach they believe in and want to fight for they way they did with Pagano.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350336923' post='1191599']

Well it's hard to find a situation where the DC changed and no players changed. (Rex Ryan, in his first year in NY, could be an example.) And you mentioned that the pass rushers were coming into their own. Is it a coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Jeff FIsher can get more out of his players than Steve Spagnulo. J.Joseph played his best ball in a while last year. Maybe it's because Phillips can get more out of Joseph than Marvin Lewis could at that point in his career.

Distractions, motivations, trust, and other similar intangibles make far more of a difference than fans realize. Every year there are players who get paid and disappear. There are players who lose somebody close to them and come out balling. There are players who simply need a coaching change - any change, to start believing in their team again. Even if that replacement is Jason Garret. I'm not saying we need to cut Pees loose mid-season, and in fact, I think Suggs taking over this team is going to be a huge morale boost. I'm saying that the players need a coach they believe in and want to fight for they way they did with Pagano.
[/quote]

First let me address the point about personnel. ER20 already made the point for me, but all those teams you mentioned did significantly upgrade thd players. The Rams went from having an awful secondary ti one of the best with additions of Jenkins and Finnegan along with Robert Quinn developing into one if the best young pass-rushers in the game. Texans massively upgraded last season as was already pointed out ( Joesph was already an elite CB and got a massive contract b/c of it) In Philly you have a top 10 defense despite a DC tgat had never coached defense before. Personnel doesnt matter?

As to my next point. You stated the players need a coach they believe in. Thats an absolutely ludicrous statement. How do you know wheter the players "believe" in Pees. You dont. It's not like he us new to the Ravens either. All the player interviews I have read or heard have glowing reviews for what Pees is doing.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Tiz' timestamp='1350336015' post='1191553']


Wouldn't their improvement over last year show what a difference he makes?
Don't have to be top 10 to see improvement unless they were 11th last year.

I don't fault pees for n juries. That's life and it sucks. I do have an issue with schemes that don't generate pressure without blitzing a db. I do have an issue with poor tackling. These are things that pees can directly or indirectly effect based on his attitude and his control in practice. So we will see how things change going fwd.

As for cam. I don't mind him one bit but think flacco has a better relationship with Caldwell who will be o.c. Next yr
[/quote]

If we cant generate pressure without blitzing that has everything to do with personnel. How can you scheme beating individual match-ups? If the front 4 cant generate pressure that us completely on players or to a lesser extent the position coaches for not instilling proper technique.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350336923' post='1191599']
Well it's hard to find a situation where the DC changed and no players changed. (Rex Ryan, in his first year in NY, could be an example.) And you mentioned that the pass rushers were coming into their own. Is it a coincidence? Maybe, or maybe Jeff FIsher can get more out of his players than Steve Spagnulo. J.Joseph played his best ball in a while last year. Maybe it's because Phillips can get more out of Joseph than Marvin Lewis could at that point in his career. (By the way, take a look at how the Texans defense did in their two games without Phillips)

Distractions, motivations, trust, and other similar intangibles make far more of a difference than fans realize. Every year there are players who get paid and disappear. There are players who lose somebody close to them and come out balling. There are players who simply need a coaching change - any change, to start believing in their team again. Even if that replacement is Jason Garret. I'm not saying we need to cut Pees loose mid-season, and in fact, I think Suggs taking over this team is going to be a huge morale boost. I'm saying that the players need a coach they believe in and want to fight for they way they did with Pagano.
[/quote]

True that new DCs often bring in new personnel but these specific brought in more talent than the norm. I'm not saying Fisher has little to do with the pass rush flourishing but Chris Long had already developed into pass rushing beast before this year. And a huge reason Robert Quinn wasn't productive last season was a lack of playing time.

I've seen no evidence to suggest the players don't believe in Pees. They've played sloppy football but the same happened back in '07 and all I've heard for years is how much players love playing for Rex.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1350337530' post='1191627']
First let me address the point about personnel. ER20 already made the point for me, but all those teams you mentioned did significantly upgrade thd players. The Rams went from having an awful secondary ti one of the best with additions of Jenkins and Finnegan along with Robert Quinn developing into one if the best young pass-rushers in the game. Texans massively upgraded last season as was already pointed out ( Joesph was already an elite CB and got a massive contract b/c of it) In Philly you have a top 10 defense despite a DC tgat had never coached defense before. Personnel doesnt matter?
[/quote]
Okay, why is coaching more important? Let's see... have you seen the Saints lately? Did San Fran turn around their team because they got Carlos Rodgers? We're talking about ENORMOUS changes here. Finnegan and Jenkings and Quinn with another year under his belt isn't enough to turn around a defense. Did the Jets get the #1 defense in 2009 because Revis was a year older?

What happened to the Texans' defense after they lost Mario Williams? They got better. And what happened to him since? He's turned invisible.

[quote]As to my next point. You stated the players need a coach they believe in. Thats an absolutely ludicrous statement. How do you know wheter the players "believe" in Pees. You dont. It's not like he us new to the Ravens either. All the player interviews I have read or heard have glowing reviews for what Pees is doing.[/quote] Of course in interviews they're going to support him. The players know how much worse the defense is this year. I think the real question is do you really think the players blame our sudden deficiencies on losing JJ, Suggs, and Redding, as much of this board believes? Remember that our defense played great the second half of the Bengals game. And now with each passing week the defense has gotten worse and worse, and the personnel has stayed the same.

[Ravenslifer]

I really don't know. I would have said Cam, but I've always maintained Cam is good in small doses, and Caldwell's presence has really helped IMO. Rosburg has our special teams playing well. Pees hasn't done what I've expected, but then he's working without our only consistent pass rusher and a guy voted among the top 10 players in the NFL today. Suggs could very well be our best player, offense or defense, and he's not here, and that changes everything, how our schemes can be designed, how other teams prepare for us, etc. Then again, Pags took the same unit Mattison had and completely changed the way they looked. And I always try to keep in mind that last year, people hated on Perry Fewell big time and he and his unit came up HUGE in the playoffs for the Giants. There's still a lot more of the season left, and lets not forget we've played Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Michael Vick, and (I can't believe I'm putting his name here) Andy Dalton - who BTW it seemed like half the people on here last year kept saying was better than Flacco. At the least you can say we've basically had two games against a quarterback not considered among the better quarterbacks in the league in Cassel and Weeden. And we still have to face down Shaub, Roethlisberger twice, Rivers, and the Manning Brothers, plus RGIII. Last year we faced the likes of Gabbert, Sanchez, Bradford, Kolb/Skelton, Colt McCoy.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350338323' post='1191661']

Okay, why is coaching more important? Let's see... have you seen the Saints lately? Did San Fran turn around their team because they got Carlos Rodgers? We're talking about ENORMOUS changes here. Finnegan and Jenkings and Quinn with another year under his belt isn't enough to turn around a defense. Did the Jets get the #1 defense in 2009 because Revis was a year older?

What happened to the Texans' defense after they lost Mario Williams? They got better. And what happened to him since? He's turned invisible.

Of course in interviews they're going to support him. The players know how much worse the defense is this year. I think the real question is do you really think the players blame our sudden deficiencies on losing JJ, Suggs, and Redding, as much of this board believes? Remember that our defense played great the second half of the Bengals game. And now with each passing week the defense has gotten worse and worse, and the personnel has stayed the same.
[/quote]
Those are HC changes not just coordinators.

The players have come out and said they need to play better. I dont know why they arent performing, i just know what I see on the field. I think it's a stretch to say they dont believe in their DC. Sounds like a complete cop-out.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1350341123' post='1191725']
Those are HC changes not just coordinators.

The players have come out and said they need to play better. I dont know why they arent performing, i just know what I see on the field. I think it's a stretch to say they dont believe in their DC. Sounds like a complete cop-out.
[/quote]
I saw the behind the bench videos from this site, and in one clip Austin is talking to Cary after the first Dez TD about how he should've cut in instead of playing a little deeper. Cary said he was covering deeper in case Dez ran a post route, and didn't see any help (no one was around). Austin told him that he just had to trust the help would be there/

It's just one example, but things like this go on that the fans aren't aware of. Fans will watch the TD and say "Cary sucks. How do you play that far off in the enzone?", but what they won't see is that the problem wasn't what Cary can't do, but what he trusts about his defense. To some degree these things happen with any coaching change. But we were told by Pees and by the players that the defense would be run pretty much the same. So I don't think it's just that they haven't ironed out the details of a new system.

[Tank 92]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350342274' post='1191754']
I saw the behind the bench videos from this site, and in one clip Austin is talking to Cary after the first Dez TD about how he should've cut in instead of playing a little deeper. Cary said he was covering deeper in case Dez ran a post route, and didn't see any help (no one was around). Austin told him that he just had to trust the help would be there/

It's just one example, but things like this go on that the fans aren't aware of. Fans will watch the TD and say "Cary sucks. How do you play that far off in the enzone?", but what they won't see is that the problem wasn't what Cary can't do, but what he trusts about his defense. To some degree these things happen with any coaching change. But we were told by Pees and by the players that the defense would be run pretty much the same. So I don't think it's just that they haven't ironed out the details of a new system.
[/quote]

I think you have inadvertently supported the opposing view. This makes it sound more like a Williams issue(trust) than a Pees or coaching issue.

[ravens_4life]

i am not blaming pees or anybody i am just trying to figure out how we go from top 5 defense to bottom 5 defense in under a year. maybe pees isnt a good fit to run the entire defense. we are getting ran all over. we look real bad yesterday. we probably should have lost. now that lewis, webby are out for the entire season i hope lewis gets involved in the defensive scheme to prepare for each team.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='awholelottahaloti' timestamp='1350342993' post='1191771']
I think you have inadvertently supported the opposing view. This makes it sound more like a Williams issue(trust) than a Pees or coaching issue.
[/quote]
Williams' trust is Pees' problem. Those kinds of issues are happening all across the defense. The D isn't functioning as a unit. Fortunately our problems are correctable, but only over time. We need to build good defensive performances on top of each other. Maybe it starts with the bye week and Suggs back.

[rlh445]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350342274' post='1191754']
I saw the behind the bench videos from this site, and in one clip Austin is talking to Cary after the first Dez TD about how he should've cut in instead of playing a little deeper. Cary said he was covering deeper in case Dez ran a post route, and didn't see any help (no one was around). Austin told him that he just had to trust the help would be there/

It's just one example, but things like this go on that the fans aren't aware of. Fans will watch the TD and say "Cary sucks. How do you play that far off in the enzone?", but what they won't see is that the problem wasn't what Cary can't do, but what he trusts about his defense. To some degree these things happen with any coaching change. But we were told by Pees and by the players that the defense would be run pretty much the same. So I don't think it's just that they haven't ironed out the details of a new system.
[/quote]

Uh, this sounds like Teryl was doing the ol' Captain Hindsight thing. Saying he should have cut in instead of playing deeper is all well and good after the fact, but what if Cary tried to jump the route and there wasn't help behind him? He'd still get burned but would have no excuse for it. Reed has burned us plenty of times with that; but he did it because more often than not his instincts ring true and he comes up with a timely pick or deflection. It's obvious that Cary may not have those instincts honed quite yet; but that doesn't really suggest a problem with the overall scheme but Cary's own thought process within it.

Whether or not one would believe that that is the coaches' fault is another story entirely. I'd say nobody on this defense, coaches and players alike, are free from blame and the only solution is to continue to let this group play together and start trusting each other more and coming together. With our defense seemingly in shambles because of injuries, this is the time that they either pull together like the family they profess to be, or sink the entire ship with them.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1350343627' post='1191793']
Uh, this sounds like Teryl was doing the ol' Captain Hindsight thing. Saying he should have cut in instead of playing deeper is all well and good after the fact, but what if Cary tried to jump the route and there wasn't help behind him? He'd still get burned but would have no excuse for it. Reed has burned us plenty of times with that; but he did it because more often than not his instincts ring true and he comes up with a timely pick or deflection. It's obvious that Cary may not have those instincts honed quite yet; but [b]that doesn't really suggest a problem with the overall scheme but Cary's own thought process within it.[/b]
[/quote] Whether Cary was right on that play or not to think what he thought wasn't my point. It's that he didn't trust that he'd have safety help. And maybe that play isn't the best example, but it's the only one I have. You're not going to get many behind-the-scene clips of what happens when things go wrong.

I agree that there might not be a problem with the overall scheme. Schemes are designed to work. As I've said, our defense started the first game pretty good. Not great, but not as bad as it's started to become. Our team prides itself on defense. Once that started to turn, it caused the mess we currently see. I know the players had pride in Pagano as their coach and pride in Pagano's defense. I'm not seeing it anymore.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='SirPainsalot' timestamp='1350332765' post='1191437']
It's not Pees. We were missing key personnel. As bad as he is, he's not worse than Cam.
However, if Cam can somehow step it up it can easily be Pees... That's if though.
[/quote]
We need to reload on defense. Losing Lewis forever is tough, Webb will be back next year, and Ngata is fine. I still think that Pees is a little soft. Lewis and Pees will make one hell of a tandem.

[rlh445]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1350344184' post='1191807']
Whether Cary was right on that play or not to think what he thought wasn't my point. It's that he didn't trust that he'd have safety help. And maybe that play isn't the best example, but it's the only one I have. You're not going to get many behind-the-scene clips of what happens when things go wrong.

I agree that there might not be a problem with the overall scheme. Schemes are designed to work. As I've said, our defense started the first game pretty good. Not great, but not as bad as it's started to become.[b] Our team prides itself on defense. [/b]Once that started to turn, it caused the mess we currently see. I know the players had pride in Pagano as their coach and pride in Pagano's defense. I'm not seeing it anymore.
[/quote]

I think the bolded part was fine without all the fluff after it. I don't think it has anything to do with Pagano, as least insofar as the reason we're not playing well is because we've lost the pride of the guy that was the DC for [b]one[/b] year. Maybe his schemes were better, or maybe he was a better teacher or explainer, who knows. Any one of those things is way more possible than the team secretly mourning the loss of Pags as the DC, that just doesn't make sense. A team that prides itself on defense would say, 'It doesn't matter who we've got coaching us up, we're THE RAVENS DEFENSE, WE COULD DO IT WITH A MONKEY TEACHING US!,'. So I don't buy it hawk, sorry.

What I am saying is that our defense has always had pride, and way before Pags was the defensive coordinator. Pride isn't the reason we're sinking out there. Maybe scheme is? Maybe the loss of Suggs? Maybe a little of both plus other things?

[Tiz]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1350337767' post='1191641']


If we cant generate pressure without blitzing that has everything to do with personnel. How can you scheme beating individual match-ups? If the front 4 cant generate pressure that us completely on players or to a lesser extent the position coaches for not instilling proper technique.
[/quote]

I said without blitzing a db
Not without blitzing.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Tiz' timestamp='1350346869' post='1191897']


I said without blitzing a db
Not without blitzing.
[/quote]

Sorry. I don't think it matters where the blitz is coming from. Players arent getting it done simple as that. I have yet to see a reasonable argument that actually incriminates Pees.

[K-Dog]

who was the guy Billick fired half way through the season?

Why is he not on the poll ?