Three players that cost us in the draft

[RedFire]

New NFL...you need 30points to win a game. deal with it! Defenses Will adapt as time goes on....but there have been a lot of rule changes recently. Ray Lewis even dropped weight because you have TE running wild in the middle these days and more barry sanders type of backs instead of the Jeromone Bettis running a dive.

[Crabcakes&Football]

Hindsight is 20/20. Every team in this league can look back at any given past draft and see a few picks they would like to have back. And given our average draft position the last 4 years, it is hard to maintain your roster picking out of the bottom of the draft every year. Look how it caught up with the Colts, with the Steelers, with the Pats.

[grantkyle2003]

Why isnt ozzie being called into question here? The last couple drafts weve traded back out of the first round to acquire more picks but its the same thing like with bill belicheck. You can have all the picks in the world but if none pan out what good is it then? Why arent we trading up more even if its a couple spots, Christ the falcons traded the farm for julio and made free agent pick ups for the D and there undefeated. I trust in ozzie but at some point it becomes a what have you done for me lately.

[nk02442]

[quote name='Ngata Chance' timestamp='1350254670' post='1189544']
So you're telling me every single player we've drafted hasn't turned out exactly as we hoped? Nooooooo! I don't believe it.
[/quote]

While your sarcasim meter may be broken...........he is saying we are missing on almost ALL of them. Pitta/Webb/Torey being the exceptions.

[nk02442]

[quote name='PDO' timestamp='1350266719' post='1190267']
Recently we've been drafting pretty damn late in the 1st round.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_NFL_Draft"]http://en.wikipedia..../2011_NFL_Draft[/url]

Please tell me, who should we have taken over Jimmy Smith?
[/quote]

Brooks Reed

[kassaiscool]

Out of all of the players I mentioned Sergio in my opinion had the most talent. I actually think he would be the play maker on d-line right now if he didn't get hurt. To me Cody is overrated, he lost his job to kemo? 33 year old vet coming off a serious injury. Kruger is just plain soft to me. For a guy as big as him he will rarely bull rush, and isn't that good against the run. I am really not mad or anything just sad these players are hurting the ravens. ironically all of them play on the d-line which is getting shredded by everyone.

[kassaiscool]

[quote name='Mr. Irrelevant' timestamp='1350279969' post='1190675']
Cody isn't a bust, and has played at a high level. But we need a better rotation. I want to trade up for star or Hawkins.
[/quote]

lol he lost his job to Kemo... if hes not a bust he isn't worth a second round draft pick that's for sure.

[nk02442]

[quote name='kassaiscool' timestamp='1350313439' post='1190964']
lol he lost his job to Kemo... if hes not a bust he isn't worth a second round draft pick that's for sure.
[/quote]

yea he lost his job to 10+ year vet who was so fat and out of shape he didnt play football last year.

Cody has been and is a bust.... hes got no heart or killer instinct.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1350282270' post='1190698']
The irony with those three picks (Kruger, Kindle, Cody) is that the Bengals have three beasts who were taken after those picks in Johnson, Dunlap and Atkins respectively.
[/quote]

Okay, I would give Kindle an F, Kruger a D, and Cody a C. Suggs was the catalyst for the defense. Without him no one looks good so far. The loss of Webb is the biggest blow that might cost Pees his job. The loss of the Lewis really makes me wish that we had traded up for Hightower.

[CapoRocky]

Was anyone else surprised to see Williams and McKinnie out there yesterday?

[kassaiscool]

I guess someone else is seeing what i'm seeing looL

[kassaiscool]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1350313705' post='1190974']
yea he lost his job to 10+ year vet who was so fat and out of shape he didnt play football last year.

Cody has been and is a bust.... hes got no heart or killer instinct.
[/quote]

I guess someone is seeing what i'm seeing lloooL

[good_n_purple]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1350313934' post='1190980']
Was anyone else surprised to see Williams and McKinnie out there yesterday?
[/quote]
I was to an extent. I thought Hare wood ahd been doing a decent job. Osemele had been having problems.

[Aiden80]

THE TEAM IS BIG ON KRUGER , GIVING HIM THE JOB SETTING THE DEFENSIVE EDGE LIKE JJ DID FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS . IFHE CANT HANDLE IT THIS YEAR IM SURE HE'LL BE GONE OR AT LEAST HE SHOULD HE'S HAD PLENTY OF TIME ON THIS TEAM TO IMPROVE ,

[nk02442]

[quote name='good_n_purple' timestamp='1350315728' post='1191023']
I was to an extent. I thought Hare wood ahd been doing a decent job. Osemele had been having problems.
[/quote]

That whole O line besides yanda needs to be replaced..... This team needs alot of work if it wants to keep being a perenial playoff team.

[Ngata Chance]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1350317109' post='1191060']


That whole O line besides yanda needs to be replaced..... This team needs alot of work if it wants to keep being a perenial playoff team.
[/quote]

And yet, as terrible as you keep insisting everything is, the Ravens keep winning.

[reediddy]

Anyone else think these guys would be more successful in a 4-3 set? Kindle Ngata Cody Kruger with Suggs RL and Upshaw at the LB's? Anyone?

[flynismo]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1350319446' post='1191126']
Anyone else think these guys would be more successful in a 4-3 set? Kindle Ngata Cody Kruger with Suggs RL and Upshaw at the LB's? Anyone?
[/quote]

Um, no. Not even a little...

[Bltravens]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1350317109' post='1191060']
That whole O line besides yanda needs to be replaced..... This team needs alot of work if it wants to keep being a perenial playoff team.
[/quote]
Well that's simply not happening. Osemele is staying, Yanda is staying, Gronkowski will be the C next year or the year after, Oher is likely staying as well. You can't have studs at every position. The Oline didn't even play that bad yesterday, I don't know what the complaining is about.

[reediddy]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1350319670' post='1191131']
Um, no. Not even a little...
[/quote]

Really? Explain. I would imagine a 4-3 would not completely cure but at least mitigate some of our run D woes, and give an opportunity for Kindle/Kruger to get after the passer in a down stance. It would also make for better blitzing opportunities given the OL already has to account for 4 rushers. Texans have been running it pretty well this season.

[PuRock]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1350320740' post='1191167']
Really? Explain. I would imagine a 4-3 would not completely cure but at least mitigate some of our run D woes, and give an opportunity for Kindle/Kruger to get after the passer in a down stance. It would also make for better blitzing opportunities given the OL already has to account for 4 rushers. Texans have been running it pretty well this season.
[/quote]

I don't think it'll help. And it'll only make things even more confusing to switch mid-season.

Our guys are built to be space eaters in the 3-4. In a 4-3 we would need them to be able to get into the backfield on their own (that's not happening). Any offensive line would be able to neutralize our D-Line and the short routes would be more open, the holes would be the same with less guys to beat in the run game.

You wouldn't blitz more in a 4-3, you have to rely on your 4 DL men more to create pressure. Our best bet is to stick with the 3-4 and just be more creative and wise with our LB blitzes.

[reediddy]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1350321132' post='1191175']
I don't think it'll help. [b]And it'll only make things even more confusing to switch mid-season[/b].

Our guys are built to be space eaters in the 3-4. In a 4-3 we would need them to be able to get into the backfield on their own (that's not happening). Any offensive line would be able to neutralize our D-Line and the short routes would be more open, the holes would be the same with less guys to beat in the run game.

You wouldn't blitz more in a 4-3, you have to rely on your 4 DL men more to create pressure. Our best bet is to stick with the 3-4 and be more creative and wise with our LB blitzes.
[/quote]

Of course, I didn't expect them to change but asked in theory. Maybe I'm overestimating (greatly) the potential success Kindle/Kruger would have in that scheme given they haven't shown much pass rushing prowess to this point. Their size also wouldn't be ideal for a 4-3 DE, true.

My main concern for even bringing this up was to provide more opportunity for Cody to see the field. Having him and Ngata clogging the middle seems, in theory, to be a very plausible way to solve our problems vs. the run. Cody's not athletic enough to play the 3-4 NT hence Kemo has been the primary guy to this point. I also imagined Kruger to have more success as a 4-3 DE given that was his position (I think) at Utah.

Regardless, at this point of the season it's not going to change. Just trying to muster up some ideas given we are going to face an elite RB next Sunday

[PuRock]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1350321797' post='1191182']
Of course, I didn't expect them to change but asked in theory. [b]Maybe I'm overestimating (greatly) the potential success Kindle/Kruger would have in that scheme given they haven't shown much pass rushing prowess to this point. [/b]Their size also wouldn't be ideal for a 4-3 DE, true.

My main concern for even bringing this up was to provide more opportunity for Cody to see the field. Having him and Ngata clogging the middle seems, in theory, to be a very plausible way to solve our problems vs. the run. Cody's not athletic enough to play the 3-4 NT hence Kemo has been the primary guy to this point. I also imagined Kruger to have more success as a 4-3 DE given that was his position (I think) at Utah.

Regardless, at this point of the season it's not going to change. Just trying to muster up some ideas given we are going to face an elite RB next Sunday
[/quote]

I think you are. Kruger doesn't have a good repertoire of pass rushes to be effective in a 4-3 IMO. If you put him as a DE, he'll just be invisible. Kindle was getting owned by our FA rookie tackles in TC. He'd be even more invisible (if that's even possible).

Best bet with Kruger's and Kindle's talent is try and get creative, best way to do this is the 3-4. That's where they are at for us. You would also need Cody to be able to get shed his blocker and get pressure on the QB when need be. That's not happening either.

[flynismo]

Paul did play a lot of DE in a 43 at Utah, but he is not a DE in the NFL. In fact, if you recall, we tried that experiment in his second season with us, and that almost ruined his career.

Kindle is far too small, even as a 43 end.

I think Pu did a good job explaining why that line would be ineffective....Ngata would be the only one of the four who could provide a consistent pass rush, but even he isnt built for that really.

To add to what Pu said, only Suggs would be effective as a 43 LB. None of the other guys have the range to be reliable in run or pass support.

In short, a 43 would make things even worse than they are now

[Dudeman]

This conversation has gotten a little off topic talking about defensive schemes, but I am going to take a bite anyways

Obviously we are built now to be 3-4, and our drafting strategy has reflected that, but this wasn't always the case. We used to make more shifts, run a more complex scheme, and basically flex between 3-4 to 4-3 at will. I remember once when someone asked Sexy Rexy about the 3-4 and he scoffed and said they were over-simplyfing the sceme. But those were the days we had the same veteran guys indoctrinated to the scheme of the same defensive coordinator over multiple years. Turning over the defensive coordinator the last 3 years hasn't helped things either.

So as much as people harp on Mattison we would have been BETTER off if he had been here the whole time.

Wow thats a shocker I know, but hear me out.

A.) Pagano was excellent for our secondary. This was highlighted in his lone season as our defensive coordinator. Webb had his best seasons playing under him, and he has been a father figure of sorts for Reed. They really trusted him to put them into the best position to succeed. Obviously his success also moved him up the ranks to the spotlight of being a coordinator, but man he was good behind the scenes too.

B.) Dean Pees was great as a linebackers coach! Just like Pagano in my previous point.

C.) Players, coaches, and teams build chemistry over seasons and off-seasons. Losing players to free agency and injury has hurt us, but we are out of synch and it shows. Mattisons only crime was he'd go into the prevent shell defense a little early. But he was great at the fundamentals and he was right about needing to have success in a 4 man rush. We built off of that last year when Pagano was the coordinator, but make no mistake that Mattison deserves some of that credit. Suggs wouldn't have had the season he did last year if his pressure didn't get there on the 4 man rush. The only reason it didn't work as well for Mattison was because Suggs was hobbled and injured at points that year.

[nk02442]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1350319921' post='1191137']
Well that's simply not happening. Osemele is staying, Yanda is staying, Gronkowski will be the C next year or the year after, Oher is likely staying as well. You can't have studs at every position. The Oline didn't even play that bad yesterday, I don't know what the complaining is about.
[/quote]

More so the whole body of work.

Oher has shown to be throughout his time here he is below avg tackle with penalty problems
Yanda when healthy is a strong guard but without a strong line around him, it really doesnt matter
Birk should have retired 3 years ago. He is old, weak, slow, and injury prone.
Whoever is playing LG this week, castoff or rookie.......
Osemele, rookie.... hasnt shown me much promise so far. Oher was a much better RT his rookie year that Osemele if that tells you anything.

There you have it, a line that cant pass protect, cant run block and a QB who will not get rid of the balls...... going to be a long season once we start playing the real playoffcontenders, NE not withstanding.

[nk02442]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1350324738' post='1191236']
Paul did play a lot of DE in a 43 at Utah, but he is not a DE in the NFL. In fact, if you recall, we tried that experiment in his second season with us, and that almost ruined his career.

Kindle is far too small, even as a 43 end.

I think Pu did a good job explaining why that line would be ineffective....Ngata would be the only one of the four who could provide a consistent pass rush, but even he isnt built for that really.

To add to what Pu said, only Suggs would be effective as a 43 LB. None of the other guys have the range to be reliable in run or pass support.

In short, a 43 would make things even worse than they are now
[/quote]

We need to start drafting bodys for a 43 defense. It is much easier to plug players in then the 34. We need another good DE and DT to solidify that line.

[nk02442]

[quote name='Dudeman' timestamp='1350325253' post='1191243']
This conversation has gotten a little off topic talking about defensive schemes, but I am going to take a bite anyways

Obviously we are built now to be 3-4, and our drafting strategy has reflected that, but this wasn't always the case. We used to make more shifts, run a more complex scheme, and basically flex between 3-4 to 4-3 at will. I remember once when someone asked Sexy Rexy about the 3-4 and he scoffed and said they were over-simplyfing the sceme. But those were the days we had the same veteran guys indoctrinated to the scheme of the same defensive coordinator over multiple years. Turning over the defensive coordinator the last 3 years hasn't helped things either.

So as much as people harp on Mattison we would have been BETTER off if he had been here the whole time.

Wow thats a shocker I know, but hear me out.

A.) Pagano was excellent for our secondary. This was highlighted in his lone season as our defensive coordinator. Webb had his best seasons playing under him, and he has been a father figure of sorts for Reed. They really trusted him to put them into the best position to succeed. Obviously his success also moved him up the ranks to the spotlight of being a coordinator, but man he was good behind the scenes too.

B.) Dean Pees was great as a linebackers coach! Just like Pagano in my previous point.

C.) Players, coaches, and teams build chemistry over seasons and off-seasons. Losing players to free agency and injury has hurt us, but we are out of synch and it shows. Mattisons only crime was he'd go into the prevent shell defense a little early. But he was great at the fundamentals and he was right about needing to have success in a 4 man rush. We built off of that last year when Pagano was the coordinator, but make no mistake that Mattison deserves some of that credit. Suggs wouldn't have had the season he did last year if his pressure didn't get there on the 4 man rush. The only reason it didn't work as well for Mattison was because Suggs was hobbled and injured at points that year.
[/quote]

A. The secondary looked good beacuse of the pass rush. That is the only reason they didnt get torn apart. We had more sacks and QB pressure than maybe 2006. AS you can see, without a pass rush, the secondary is exposed showing its true colors. Webb is the only really solid cover guy in there. Cary, Jimmy, Ed and even benard all cant cover 1v1 to save their life. We just lost the best player on our team, make no mistake (webb)

B. what does this have to do with being a HC?

C. Mattison was a garbage bum, just like Cam. Only reason he was here is harbs nepotism and keeping old familiy friends around. Go read up on coaching trees and then come back and talk. Suggs had a good year beacuse he was in shape and they use the right scheme at the right time. Situational pass rushers, and rotating guys on and off to stay fresh. Having Redding and JJ to lock up the line was also another reason. Effective blizing and getting presure with 4 men was another. Mattison had nothing to do with that,

[Cville-Raven]

[quote name='Bravens292' timestamp='1350254263' post='1189519']
i'm starting to wonder what has happened to our draft team in general. we are usually good at drafting but we've missed on a lot of talent and picked the wrong guys recently. I'm not worried but a little confused. We've spent 3 early picks on OLBs in 4 years (yes i keep pointing that out) and none have payed off. we haven't gotten much out of recent drafts (torrey pitta and webb being exceptions) while we've settled for veterans and they've waited for the young guys to receive the baton but none of them have caught up and its showed.
[/quote]2009 and 2010 classes had questionable picks, but you cannot hate on the 2011 and 2012 class its way too early. I mean obviously in hindsight you would have drafted different players such as Matthews in 09 and the Gronk in 2010, but it just doesn't work that way. If it takes Jimmy until his 3rd season to come around than I'd be fine with it since Torrey has come on so early in his career, and normally it takes receivers about 2 seasons until they become all around good. Also as it has been stated before, we've only had one 1st round pick in the last 3 drafts. Every GM has their bad drafts; just look at the Steelers in 2008 taking bust Limas Sweed and the Steelers are considered to be one of the best teams when it comes to drafting wideouts.

[Cville-Raven]

[quote name='grantkyle2003' timestamp='1350311695' post='1190922']
Why isnt ozzie being called into question here? The last couple drafts weve traded back out of the first round to acquire more picks but its the same thing like with bill belicheck. You can have all the picks in the world but if none pan out what good is it then? Why arent we trading up more even if its a couple spots, Christ the falcons traded the farm for julio and made free agent pick ups for the D and there undefeated. I trust in ozzie but at some point it becomes a what have you done for me lately.
[/quote]your whole point is rather flawed, no pick is a guarantee.