Defensive Front 7?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='tctony' timestamp='1349655113' post='1181068']
Ray is slow. There is no other way around it.

He can still make some plays. Namely blitzing and run stuffs up the middle. [b]But he can't shed blockers[/b] or catch RBs in the passing game anymore.
[/quote]

He can shed blockers but he lost the lateral mobility to slip them a long time ago.

Media analysis is ridiculously lazy. I remember ESPN showing several Ray lowlights after the Giants gashed the D back in '08, glossing over the fact that it was a bad game for almost everyone along the front seven. Even with his occasional struggles, Ray is still among the best run-stuffing LBs.

[JohnnyBoy8102]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1349655611' post='1181092']
He can shed blockers but he lost the lateral mobility to slip them a long time ago.

Media analysis is ridiculously lazy. I remember ESPN showing several Ray lowlights after the Giants gashed the D back in '08, glossing over the fact that it was a bad game for almost everyone along the front seven. Even with his occasional struggles, Ray is still among the best run-stuffing LBs.
[/quote]

I think it is just "Easy" to blame him due to him being the big name.

There definitely is a double standard with other players. For example, Urlacher has looked absolutely terrible all season but no one is calling him out.

[The Raven]

[quote name='JohnnyBoy8102' timestamp='1349655849' post='1181099']
I think it is just "Easy" to blame him due to him being the big name.

There definitely is a double standard with other players. [b]For example, Urlacher has looked absolutely terrible all season but no one is calling him out.[/b]
[/quote]

Wait, Urlacher looked good at one point? I've always thought he was the most overrated defender in the NFL.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='JohnnyBoy8102' timestamp='1349655849' post='1181099']
I think it is just "Easy" to blame him due to him being the big name.

There definitely is a double standard with other players. For example, Urlacher has looked absolutely terrible all season but no one is calling him out.
[/quote]
Man don't even get me started on Urlacher...

[Neil]

[quote name='JohnnyBoy8102' timestamp='1349653863' post='1181011']
What was the difference in the 2nd half? Charles had 10 carries for 15 yards in the 2nd half. Does anyone know?
[/quote]
Paul Kruger happened. Either that or they put that clone of JJ that Bisciotti has been working on in the offseason into his uniform.

[JohnnyBoy8102]

[quote name='Neil' timestamp='1349656261' post='1181119']
Paul Kruger happened. Either that or they put that clone of JJ that Bisciotti has been working on in the offseason into his uniform.
[/quote]

Rodney Harrison disagree...It was ALL Ray's fault!

[JohnnyBoy8102]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1349656038' post='1181108']
Wait, Urlacher looked good at one point? I've always thought he was the most overrated defender in the NFL.
[/quote]
[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1349656144' post='1181114']
Man don't even get me started on Urlacher...
[/quote]

I agree, he was never that good. Always garnered much more attention than he should.

He was allowed the great James Stewart run for 175+ yards on the ground, 275+ yards to AP, & an embarrassing SB performance vs Addai/Rhodes but everyone brushes that under the rug.

[Neil]

[quote name='JohnnyBoy8102' timestamp='1349656350' post='1181120']
Rodney Harrison disagree...It was ALL Ray's fault!
[/quote]
Ray helped turn it around too. That thunderous hit he laid was a signal that running time was over.

[JohnnyBoy8102]

[quote name='Neil' timestamp='1349656521' post='1181130']
Ray helped turn it around too. That thunderous hit he laid was a signal that running time was over.
[/quote]

True. There are no website hits or papers sold by saying "Kruger is to blame."

[Neil]

Any game where the defence held the opposition to 6 points means that nobody there is 'to blame'. I don't care how many yards they gave up on the ground, they shut them down when it counted.

The question is how can we get some receivers open down the field more quickly, and how do me make sure they don't drop the ball.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Neil' timestamp='1349656918' post='1181145']
Any game where the defence held the opposition to 6 points means that nobody there is 'to blame'. I don't care how many yards they gave up on the ground, they shut them down when it counted.

[b]The question is how can we get some receivers open down the field more quickly, and how do me make sure they don't drop the ball.[/b]
[/quote]

Flowers and Routt are talented CBs; I'm not surprised they gave the WRs corps trouble. Plus, Berry and Derrick Johnson (the two players I'm sure covered Pitta often today) are more than athletic enough to stay with him. Not every week will be like this. The bigger problem is Cam again not recognizing the o-line's struggles and focusing on shorter routes, screen and call just one bunch formation.

The drops were an issue for the first time. According to PFF, the only drop this season had come from Rice before today.

[BloodRaven]

Ray was off, but so was everyone else. Even Ngata blew some gap assignments in the first half.

[GrimCoconut]

Paul Kruger had a [b]Hell[/b] of a game. No, he didn't get a sack or anything but he really set the edge well. I was pretty impressed with his performance today. Actually, I was impressed by the performance of both OLBs today. The players I thought played poorly were the NT & LDE. Kemoeatu was just getting beat bad. I hate the way Kemoeatu is playing. Cody hasn't looked great, either. I've been very disappointed with both of them.

The areas of weakness on our defense is our front 7, more especially our front 3, more especially everyone but Ngata. Jones, McPhee, Cody, Kemoeatu have all been unimpressive. I don't expect it to stay this way, but I'm losing hope that McPhee will pick it back up. I'm holding out hope that once Suggs returns, McPhee will have an impact again. Regardless, I feel we need to draft a NT & a LDE in the draft. Cody will be an RFA, & Kemoeatu & McBean will be free agents. I think things could have gone very differently before McBean broke his leg. I didn't like Kemoeatu and personally favored McBean until he broke his leg. Perhaps we bring him back but I still feel that we strongly need to address the DL this draft.

But people need to stop blaming Haloti Ngata, Ray Lewis, Dean Pees, and even Kruger & Upshaw on our poor defense as of late. The real blame is on the DL, the LDE & NT. When teams can run up at you through the gut, it really hurts your whole defense. The DL has to win their battle, and for the first time in a while we aren't.

[JohnnyBoy8102]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1349664541' post='1181483']
Paul Kruger had a [b]Hell[/b] of a game. No, he didn't get a sack or anything but he really set the edge well. I was pretty impressed with his performance today. Actually, I was impressed by the performance of both OLBs today. The players I thought played poorly were the NT & LDE. Kemoeatu was just getting beat bad. I hate the way Kemoeatu is playing. Cody hasn't looked great, either. I've been very disappointed with both of them.

The areas of weakness on our defense is our front 7, more especially our front 3, more especially everyone but Ngata. Jones, McPhee, Cody, Kemoeatu have all been unimpressive. I don't expect it to stay this way, but I'm losing hope that McPhee will pick it back up. I'm holding out hope that once Suggs returns, McPhee will have an impact again. Regardless, I feel we need to draft a NT & a LDE in the draft. Cody will be an RFA, & Kemoeatu & McBean will be free agents. I think things could have gone very differently before McBean broke his leg. I didn't like Kemoeatu and personally favored McBean until he broke his leg. Perhaps we bring him back but I still feel that we strongly need to address the DL this draft.

But people need to stop blaming Haloti Ngata, Ray Lewis, Dean Pees, and even Kruger & Upshaw on our poor defense as of late. The real blame is on the DL, the LDE & NT. When teams can run up at you through the gut, it really hurts your whole defense. The DL has to win their battle, and for the first time in a while we aren't.
[/quote]

Agreed. It seemed like the Chiefs interior Offensive Line were at the 2nd Level almost immediately on the snap.

[flynismo]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1349664541' post='1181483']

But people need to stop blaming Haloti Ngata, Ray Lewis, Dean Pees, and even Kruger & Upshaw on our poor defense as of late. The real blame is on the DL, the LDE & NT. When teams can run up at you through the gut, it really hurts your whole defense. The DL has to win their battle, and for the first time in a while we aren't.
[/quote]

Been saying that for a few weeks now; not too many people are buying that.

Still doesn't change my mind though. Pees is not the problem. Our DL is the problem.

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1349673096' post='1181729']


Been saying that for a few weeks now; not too many people are buying that.

Still doesn't change my mind though. Pees is not the problem. Our DL is the problem.
[/quote]
We stepped it up in the second half, it took a while for Ngata to start, but when he did he played hard. IMO, Kemo needs to go back to the bench, what has happened to Cody, when he played he did well too. The DLine also needs to provide more pass rush. The DLine is young fly..., they are the main source of the problem (football is won on the lines u ppl, why Flacco had a bad game). Ray,Kruger, and company are fine, the only suspect one in the secondary is Cary. Outside of our mts the de need to step up. McPhee is our rookie having a sophomore slump, and it is costing us greatly. He needs to get out of his funk, then we are better off

[jdynamite]

I need to re-watch the game to see exactly why so many runs went up the middle. I do recall on a few plays in the first half where Ngata would be in position to make play with deep penetration ( but what appeared to be a great play was turned into over-penetration by Charles' speed and quick cut ability to turn it up field fast.
Charles needs credit for getting north/south quickly getting positive yards , too often Rbs want to run to edges and barely gain a yard.

[jdynamite]

I really want to see what Kemo, Cody, Art were doing in 1st half when all of those runs were going up the middle.

[Neil]

Yeah, I was willing to say that Kruger had a good game at the end of the first half, but by the send of the game, I can't deny that Kruger had a great game. He absolutely killed outside runs with penetration, and put some pressure on too.

[H8R]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1349652766' post='1180978']


Ngata is having a DPOY-like start to his season. He's the least of our concern. I will concede to you that Kemo and Cody look fat, play fat, and just aren't playing good football.



Okay, for the millionth damn time, how would changing the formation magically make the personnel better? Lets break this down, shall we? Our current front seven looks like this

McClain - Lewis
Upshaw/McClellan - Ngata - Cody - McPhee - Kruger

On 3rd down, its Upshaw, Ngata, McPhee, Kruger.

Now, if we transitioned to a 4-3, this is how I'd project it to look.

McClain - Lewis - Ellerbe?

Upshaw - Ngata - Cody/McPhee/Who? - Kruger

How does that fix anything? It's the exact same personnel. Nothing changes except scheme. By the way, it would be impossible to install a new scheme in a week. Lol! Personnel aside, Pees runs his 3-4 just like a 4-3 cover two in terms of philosophy, scheme, and some alignments. Nothing chnages!

So, tell me. How does changing the formation magically make the players execute better?
[/quote]

You guys are delusional.... when Ngata gets a sack, he's the best player in the league... blah blah blah. he's getting pushed off the ball. Not to mention, our run d is horrid.... that's a lot of Ngatas job. they're not running away from him... he's letting Olineman get on our LBs. I watch it week in and week out. Think what you want , he's not playing anywhere close to DPOY... Let the media tell you who's playing good... LOL.

[redrum52]

I think the loss of McBean hurt the team. I think he would've been our new Redding in being able to stop the run and generate a decent rush. I don't know what's up with Cody. They said he had been working hard but it doesn't seem to be paying off now. Maybe an adjustment in philosophy but you're right, the d line is letting big holes open up front. I think McPhee is still recovering from the knee. I could be wrong, but I think we are starting to see the lack of athleticism from our lbs as well. Kruger and Upshaw are improving but I don't feel we have much speed outside of Ellerbe and Kruger at the lb position.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1349708512' post='1181918']
I think the loss of McBean hurt the team. I think he would've been our new Redding in being able to stop the run and generate a decent rush. I don't know what's up with Cody. They said he had been working hard but it doesn't seem to be paying off now. Maybe an adjustment in philosophy but you're right, the d line is letting big holes open up front. I think McPhee is still recovering from the knee. [b]I could be wrong, but I think we are starting to see the lack of athleticism from our lbs as well.[/b] Kruger and Upshaw are improving but I don't feel we have much speed outside of Ellerbe and Kruger at the lb position.
[/quote]

You're not wrong, the front office favors undrafted and/or lunch pail types. So while Kruger, Upshaw and McClellan have combined for 2.0 sacks in five games it's hard not to notice the Bengals DE Michael Johnson (who we passed over for Kruger) dominating both the run and pass (5.0 sacks).

[flynismo]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1349707775' post='1181906']
You guys are delusional.... when Ngata gets a sack, he's the best player in the league... blah blah blah. he's getting pushed off the ball. Not to mention, our run d is horrid.... that's a lot of Ngatas job. they're not running away from him... he's letting Olineman get on our LBs. I watch it week in and week out. Think what you want , he's not playing anywhere close to DPOY... Let the media tell you who's playing good... LOL.
[/quote]

I think you are the one being delusional. Averaging five tackles a game?? Thats 80 tackles over a full season at that pace. Ranks second on the team in sacks on top of that??
Yeah, that Ngata is way over hyped

[H8R]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1349754180' post='1182938']
I think you are the one being delusional. Averaging five tackles a game?? Thats 80 tackles over a full season at that pace. Ranks second on the team in sacks on top of that??
Yeah, that Ngata is way over hyped
[/quote]

once again... stats... watch him at POA... The sack total..ehh. We've got one of the lowest sack totals in the league. It's not really hard to be a superstar in special-ed classes...

[H8R]

[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1349708512' post='1181918']
I think the loss of McBean hurt the team. I think he would've been our new Redding in being able to stop the run and generate a decent rush. I don't know what's up with Cody. They said he had been working hard but it doesn't seem to be paying off now. Maybe an adjustment in philosophy but you're right, the d line is letting big holes open up front. I think McPhee is still recovering from the knee. I could be wrong, but I think we are starting to see the lack of athleticism from our lbs as well. Kruger and Upshaw are improving but I don't feel we have much speed outside of Ellerbe and Kruger at the lb position.
[/quote]

I think you're right, McBean was just that type of guy!. Our LB's are run stoppers that cant stop the run. Upshaw has been the best at setting the edge on the team... he's a ROOKIE.

[H8R]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1349718810' post='1182121']
You're not wrong, the front office favors undrafted and/or lunch pail types. So while Kruger, Upshaw and McClellan have combined for 2.0 sacks in five games it's hard not to notice the Bengals DE Michael Johnson (who we passed over for Kruger) dominating both the run and pass (5.0 sacks).
[/quote]

Well, it's safe to say the Bengals Dline is FAAAAR better then ours. So, hes playing very well and he's got a great supporting cast.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='H8R' timestamp='1349800726' post='1183307']
Well, it's safe to say the Bengals Dline is FAAAAR better then ours. So, hes playing very well and he's got a great supporting cast.
[/quote]

I also forgot to mention we took Sergio Kindle over Carlos Dunlap too, even without the injury theres no way to know if Kindle would have caught on like Dunlap has. My point is I hope we can pick up on where our scouts are going wrong, they've built a dominant pass rushing line without spending any 1st round picks.

[flynismo]

I know, it is ridiculous to use stats to evaluate a player, especially when ngata is on a pace to record 80 tackles and 6 sacks as a 3 - 4 DE! Those stats are amazing, considering that in a 3-4, the LB are the ones who are supposed to pile up the tackles and sacks, not the linemen.
But if you want to pretend that just because he hasnt been perfect every single snap, he isnt playing at an elite level, thats fine with me..

[izvoodoo]

Yeah, Cody seems to have regressed. Not sure why. I thought he played well last year. Not consistently, but run defense was in no way a problem.

[reediddy]

Our DL was getting mauled in the first half but I was very encouraged by their play in the second. Stuffed the run game for the most part. There will be some growing pains obviously with a new DC, but I think we will continue to improve. Those who are calling out Ray, though, very uneducated (I'm talking about in the media, not here). Ray, at least in my opinion, was never the guy who took on guards and blew them up. His success was always predicated on strong DL play. We haven't had that yet this year but once we do, the results will be stunning.