KO at Tackle

[RavensWin09]

this move might have been to balance out the age between the 2 sides of the line. the left side definitely needed some youth. even with that reason, i am not really for this decision.

[GrimCoconut]

I think this was the plan all along. I remember back when we tried to sign the cut free agent RT from the Houston Texans earlier in the offseason. We were unable to beat out the Rams and he went there. I feel like the plan was for us to sign him and let McKinnie go and move Oher back to LT. There was a lot of speculation at the time why we would sign a RT with Oher. Now it makes sense.

Fast forward to the beginning of camp, where McKinnie was absent due to an "injury". The team did not release him but did dock his pay. Interesting. Then, after that he shortly arrives at the facility. He returns and is worked into the rotation. Meanwhile, Oher gets snaps at LT again. Oher even starts in the first two games and looks good doing it.

Fast forward to last week, where rumors swirled that McKinnie was cut and then later restructured for less upfront money. Now McKinnie is paid for his performance after his base salary.

My belief has been that we would ride McKinnie this season at LT then move on next year with Oher at LT again. Based upon this new info of Osemele at RT, I am beginning to see McKinnie as the back-up LT more than the starter. It would have been foolish to cut McKinnie because there is no one behind Oher at LT, but now with McKinnie behind Michael it makes more sense.

As for those who hate on Oher, I am with you. I'm not his biggest fan. With that said, if he will be our LT then I guess we have to wait and see. Let's hope it works out well for us.

[Gordo52]

I'm nervous about Oher at LT. But I trust that our coaches are doing the right moves and I can understand why they think this is the best available oline combination. We won't know until game time though. I think it could be a little better. Depending on how Williams and Oher play obviously.

Oher-Williams-Birk-Yanda-Osemele

McKinnie-Osemele/Williams-Birk-Yanda-Oher

I think I like the first/current formation better. sometimes you just gotta risk it to get the biscuit. :0

[Marc2k6]

So Oher will play LT? HHHHMMMMMM ! Who else is very afraid other than myself!!??

[Blex64]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1347141081' post='1142469']
Mckinney was not over weight? DId not fake an injury beacuse he was too lazy to loose the weight. I know it was hard going out and drinking every night in Miami when your suposed to be loosing weight, right after the team agreed to pick up a $500,000 option beacuse you promised them you would do everything to get your weight down and stay healthy. Screw BM. The ravens were the only team willign to give him a shot, payed him well and he will not be a man and hold up his end of the bargain.
[/quote]

While you were busy attacking Big Mac's character, I noticed you forgot to point out why he's oh so bad at LT. He was pretty good in pass protection last year. Average to below average in run blocking, but as far as pass pro goes he was more then serviceable.

[quote]Bobby Williams is not a 35 year old gaurd, coming off a broken ankle? He is going to get DOMINATED, just like birk does by guys 10 years younger and stronger. Teams do not cut starting Lineman unless they have a good reason.[/quote]

Lots of players come off injuries. I don't see what his broken ankle has to do with anything. He's an older guy, sure, but he's obviously outplayed Reid and KO and whoever else we had competing for that LG spot.

[quote]Birk was a 6 time pro bowler..... yup.... all in minosota before he came here. Ravens overpaid him and he has always been injured in some way. I really like Matt Birk, and he is the smartest player on the team, which I also respect. But he is undersized and really is overmatched. Did you conviently miss how Vince Willfork was steam rolling him last year in the AFCC. Ever wonder why we never run right up the gut, and ray is always bounching off his back or one of the guards. He gets beat 1-1 almost every snap.[/quote]

Pro Bowls are absolutely awful indicators of player skill, ESPECIALLY for O-linemen. Maurkice Pouncey has made the Pro Bowl 2 years in a row and he's atrocious (far worse then Birk). Michael Oher made the Pro Bowl his rookie year because his movie came out. Birk remains one of the league's better centers. He did very poorly in the postseason last year with the wear on his body, but he's been nothing but fantastic for us overall. We don't run up the gut because Ray is tiny and can't push the pile. He's not well suited to run up the gut constantly.


[quote]Last but not least Oher. Oher is dumb, thats not even disuputable. He dropped in the draft beacuse teams thought he couldnt handle the mental aspect of the game. He takes plays off. He is a bad LT. I would consider him an avg to slightly below avg right tackle. He needs to work on his pass pro. I wouldnt be opposed to keeping him around for 2 mill a year, but someone will overpay him based on that silly movie, so consider him gone.[/quote]

I don't think anyone at this point cares what you "consider" Oher to be. He's probably bordering on not being resigned, but he has a lot of potential and has been a solid right tackle. He had the most dominant game of all right tackles last season against Arizona, where he absolutely owned Darnell Dockett.



I don't know why I wasted my time on all this, its clear you don't really have a clue what you're talking about, but whatever.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Marc2k6' timestamp='1347146142' post='1142512']
So Oher will play LT? HHHHMMMMMM ! Who else is very afraid other than myself!!??
[/quote]
To be fair to #74, he played very well I thought against the Lions & Falcons in preseason against their pass rushers. I left those games saying "wait, that was Oher on the left?!" I was very impressed with him in those games. If he can play like he did in those games then he will be fine at LT

[gabefergy]

[i]KO starting is a good thing[/i]. At first, I found it curious that McKinnie would be benched instead of Williams but after giviing it some more thought it makes sense and further indicates the direction the offense will be taking this year. While Birk and Williams are older that doesnt mean they are bad at what they do, especially pass-protection. Over the past 3 seasons both Birk and Williams graded out as some of the best in the NFL in pass-pro.

I dont think Oher is necessarily an upgrade over McKinnie at LT in protection, but he definitely is in the running game and I think we will see more zone stretch plays to both sides of the field (McKinne is useless in space and struggles to get to the next level). This is just more evidence that the offense will be pass first instead of the power running attack we have used in the past.

[ravensfan520]

I think this has a lot to do with more no huddle offense and mckinnie may not be is good enough shape to keep up.

[jimmypowder]

I really thought McKinnie played well in the game against Jacksonville.

I feel more comfortable with him at LT and Oher at RT .

Insert Osmele in at LG . He said he's more comfortable there anyway and Oher
Said he's more comfortable at RT .

I would prefer McKinnie -Osmele-Birk-Yanda -Oher

[Tiz]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1347126854' post='1142339']
What about McKinnie? Didn't we just restructure his contract so he would stay? Why isn't he at Left Tackle with Oher at Right Tackle and KO at Left Guard? Harbs needs to stop moving the offensive line around and keep them at one position.
[/quote]

It was restructured to reflect his role as a reserve player

[Tiz]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1347147843' post='1142540']
[i]KO starting is a good thing[/i]. At first, I found it curious that McKinnie would be benched instead of Williams but after giviing it some more thought it makes sense and further indicates the direction the offense will be taking this year. While Birk and Williams are older that doesnt mean they are bad at what they do, especially pass-protection. Over the past 3 seasons both Birk and Williams graded out as some of the best in the NFL in pass-pro.

I dont think Oher is necessarily an upgrade over McKinnie at LT in protection, but he definitely is in the running game and I think we will see more zone stretch plays to both sides of the field (McKinne is useless in space and struggles to get to the next level). This is just more evidence that the offense will be pass first instead of the power running attack we have used in the past.
[/quote]

No huddle
More passing
Quick tempo
All things that don't suggest McKinnie to be the best choice we have on the ol

[PurpleCityLights]

[quote name='BmoreRav' timestamp='1347126888' post='1142340']
Maybe that was another reason behind the McKinnie restructure. They didn't want to pay $3.2m to a back-up since they've made the decision to go with Oher and KO at Tackle! The incentives added to McKinnie's contract are based on playing time I believe.
[/quote]

^^^This.

[mhead66]

There's been a lot of very insightful posts in this thread - giving me food for thought, on the possible mindset of the FO regarding our OLine.

I share others' concern about some of these moves. Oher is a good run-blocker, and (IMO) an "average-at-best" pass blocker. I know he's been shifted around, but this is his 4th season; it's time for him to play like a 1st rounder, and start becoming dominant. I don't think he'll ever be an "elite" LT - I just hope he can stop the speed OLBs.

Williams, at 35, signed a 2 year deal; four years ago, he was a dominating run blocker and an adequate pass blocker. I hope he can cheat Father Time for one more year. Same with Birk - at 36, he is technically superb, but he has had to battle injuries the last couple of years. He had surgery on his varicose veins in July... and I'm not certain he'll make it all year. Both of these guys are question marks, IMO, because of their age, and both suffered injuries in the last year.

KO has impressed me this preseason - he started slow, but he seemed to improve every game. I think the right side of the OLine should be solid - Yanda is Pro-Bowl worthy, and KO should be fine.

My concerns are the age of the talent and the left side - I'm not sure that Oher-Williams-Birk will be able to stop Cincy's [b]very[/b] [b]strong[/b] DLine... I agree with many others, that McKinnie-KO-Birk-Yanda-Oher may have been the better option. Oher is more dependable at RT.

I [b]really[/b] think we need to invest 1-2 first or second rounders in the next two drafts on the OLine.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1347150495' post='1142570']
There's been a lot of very insightful posts in this thread - giving me food for thought, on the possible mindset of the FO regarding our OLine.

I share others' concern about some of these moves. Oher is a good run-blocker, and (IMO) an "average-at-best" pass blocker. I know he's been shifted around, but this is his 4th season; it's time for him to play like a 1st rounder, and start becoming dominant. I don't think he'll ever be an "elite" LT - I just hope he can stop the speed OLBs.

Williams, at 35, signed a 2 year deal; four years ago, he was a dominating run blocker and an adequate pass blocker. I hope he can cheat Father Time for one more year. Same with Birk - at 36, he is technically superb, but he has had to battle injuries the last couple of years. He had surgery on his varicose veins in July... and I'm not certain he'll make it all year. Both of these guys are question marks, IMO, because of their age, and both suffered injuries in the last year.

KO has impressed me this preseason - he started slow, but he seemed to improve every game. I think the right side of the OLine should be solid - Yanda is Pro-Bowl worthy, and KO should be fine.

My concerns are the age of the talent and the left side - I'm not sure that Oher-Williams-Birk will be able to stop Cincy's [b]very[/b] [b]strong[/b] DLine... I agree with many others, that McKinnie-KO-Birk-Yanda-Oher may have been the better option. Oher is more dependable at RT.

I [b]really[/b] think we need to invest 1-2 first or second rounders in the next two drafts on the OLine.
[/quote]Well Dunlap is pretty much out which helps us hugely. Double up on Atkins every play and we should be fne

[Tiz]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1347128410' post='1142360']


Yeah like I said, Harbs messes everything up when he thinks he can move players around constantly without no harm. Oher hasn't been able to be as good as he can be because he keeps moving so much he can't get use to playing at one spot. I think KO makes a better Guard in the NFL and he should be our starting LG, not our RT. Oher should still be our RT and McKinnie shouldn't be our backup when he did so well for us last year.
[/quote]

McKinnie gave up the most sacks on our ol last year
McKinnie struggled with weight
McKinnie is not the athlete Oher is.
I'm assuming the move is due to the tempo and the passing of the new offense
I'm also going to assume that late in the game if the majority of the plays become run plays then McKinnie will find pt

As for the movement on the ol it's about the best 5 playing and if that means k.o. At rt and Oher at lt then that's what will be done.

If you look at every nfl team they tend to activate linemen that can play multiple spots on the ol
Not sure why it's being used to knock harbaugh just because you don't understand it.

[redlobster]

I would honestly prefer him at LG , I think his size and strength would be a great asset on the left side and the sum of those parts :

Mckinnie,KO,Birk,Yanda,Oher makes for a much stronger line when compared to Oher,Williams,Birk,Yanda,KO

[Free Agent]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1347149109' post='1142556']
I think this has a lot to do with more no huddle offense and mckinnie may not be is good enough shape to keep up.
[/quote]

Thats a great point. Hadn't thought of it like that.

[The Raven]

I'm kind of concerned about Oher starting at LT, but he did impress this preseason. Hopefully he straightens up and plays to his ability.

[Rav'n Maniac]

I have to agree with those who said these moves have something to do with the up-tempo offense. This was my thinking as well. It makes sense to me that the team would go with the more athletic bookends to start the game. Here's to supporting them both with hopes they have an excellent performance.

[cobrajet]

I'll keep an open mind, it is the first game and I know that the coaches know more than I know. I thought McKinnie was decent last year but I also know that Harewood was hurt and Reid was not ready. Maybe this change is for the best now that we have KO who seems like a really good young player. I know I may get some negatives, but I thought Grubbs was good but not a dominant LG (and yes I know he went to the pro bowl). Therefore, I still believe that we will not be losing much with Williams if he can stay healthy. Maybe that proceedure Birk had down with his veins will help him this year but I have not confidence in holding up through a Super Bowl, another year older. With all this said, I think the guys will play hard on Monday night and as I said I will keep an open mind, because maybe Oher can step up his game and be real athletic on the left side keeping those elite pass rushers off of Joe.

[Suggs Package]

Another thing about the no-huddle is that Flacco will be able to see what's happening better because I think he'll be working out of the shotgun more. In the shotgun, the risk of a blindside sack is far less than in a conventional set. So your priorities in a LT changes.

I still think McKinnie is the better pass protector, but he is a major liability in the running game. I think the shotgun will cancel out the pass protection risks in starting Oher at LT while improving considerably in the running game.

[reediddy]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1347150495' post='1142570']
There's been a lot of very insightful posts in this thread - giving me food for thought, on the possible mindset of the FO regarding our OLine.

I share others' concern about some of these moves. Oher is a good run-blocker, and (IMO) an "average-at-best" pass blocker. I know he's been shifted around, but this is his 4th season; it's time for him to play like a 1st rounder, and start becoming dominant. I don't think he'll ever be an "elite" LT - I just hope he can stop the speed OLBs.

Williams, at 35, signed a 2 year deal; four years ago, he was a dominating run blocker and an adequate pass blocker. I hope he can cheat Father Time for one more year. Same with Birk - at 36, he is technically superb, but he has had to battle injuries the last couple of years. He had surgery on his varicose veins in July... and I'm not certain he'll make it all year. Both of these guys are question marks, IMO, because of their age, and both suffered injuries in the last year.

KO has impressed me this preseason - he started slow, but he seemed to improve every game. I think the right side of the OLine should be solid - Yanda is Pro-Bowl worthy, and KO should be fine.

My concerns are the age of the talent and the left side - I'm not sure that Oher-Williams-Birk will be able to stop Cincy's [b]very[/b] [b]strong[/b] DLine... I agree with many others, that McKinnie-KO-Birk-Yanda-Oher may have been the better option. Oher is more dependable at RT.

I [b]really[/b] think we need to invest 1-2 first or second rounders in the next two drafts on the OLine.
[/quote]

Good post. I disagree with the coaches' decision though. BM showed last year that he still has what it takes to be a very serviceable left tackle. Oher, on the other hand, has been average to above-average and yet makes too many boneheaded mistakes. I'd rather not change what worked last year and "hope" that he is able to stop the speed-rushers we will face tomorrow and continue to face through the season. I feel like the coaching staff is penalizing BM for his poor offseason conditioning and dedication, and he'll be back in the lineup as our starting LT sooner rather than later, but that's just my gut.

I don't have much insight on KO but I'll take your word, and that of many others, that he's been impressive and showing steady improvement. The fact that he is versatile enough to play G or T is a plus. I feel he will eventually move into LG given Bobbie Williams' injury history.

As for your last point, 100% agree. Geno Atkins is a beast. Lucky for us that Dunlap is out. It's a very good test, I want this situation to be solid come the games against DAL and PHI

[BloodRaven]

Harbaugh - "Looking good at left guard KO."

Osemele - "Thanks Coach, I'm really getting in a groove"

Harbaugh - "Now move your a** over to right tackle!"

[gabefergy]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1347208539' post='1142957']
Harbaugh - "Looking good at left guard KO."

Osemele - "Thanks Coach, I'm really getting in a groove"

Harbaugh - "Now move your a** over to right tackle!"
[/quote]

Hes spent considerably more time at Tackle than Guard in TC and preseason.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1347208539' post='1142957']
Harbaugh - "Looking good at left guard KO."

Osemele - "Thanks Coach, I'm really getting in a groove"

Harbaugh - "Now move your a** over to right tackle!"
[/quote]
Yeah, he looks good everywhere. Dude's just a beast plain and simple.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1347208818' post='1142964']
Hes spent considerably more time at Tackle than Guard in TC and preseason.
[/quote]

He also said he prefers guard and lacks range to play tackle. On the plus side he's the best rookie lineman so far from what I've heard of the others.

[mhead66]

[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1347208285' post='1142952']
Good post. I disagree with the coaches' decision though. BM showed last year that he still has what it takes to be [b]a very serviceable left tackle[/b]. Oher, on the other hand, has been average to above-average and yet makes too many boneheaded mistakes. [b]I'd rather not change what worked last year and "hope" that he is able to stop the speed-rushers we will face tomorrow and continue to face through the season[/b]. I feel like the coaching staff is penalizing BM for his poor offseason conditioning and dedication, and he'll be back in the lineup as our starting LT sooner rather than later, but that's just my gut.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, I agree. As you pointed out, we have Dallas, with DeMarcus Ware, as an example of a speed + power rusher. I'm not certain Oher can handle that. If James Harrison is healthy, he could be problematic. I think - at this point in his development - that Oher isn't the pass blocker that McKinnie is.
[quote name='reediddy' timestamp='1347208285' post='1142952']
I don't have much insight on KO but I'll take your word, and that of many others, that he's been impressive and showing steady improvement. The fact that he is versatile enough to play G or T is a plus. I feel he will eventually move into LG given Bobbie Williams' injury history.

As for your last point, 100% agree. Geno Atkins is a beast. Lucky for us that Dunlap is out. It's a very good test, I want this situation to be solid come the games against DAL and PHI
[/quote]

As you said, it's questionable whether Oher at LT and KO at RT will be ready to face some of our schedule's pass rushers. Next week we get Philthydelphia, where Babin and Trent Cole - coming from the edges - combined for 29 sacks. Harrison + Woodley, DeMarcus Ware, Dumervil and Von Miller - they'll have to face them all.

Right now, at this point, I think McKinnie is a better LT than Oher against the pass rush, and Oher is a better RT than KO against the rush...

[nk02442]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1347146235' post='1142514']
While you were busy attacking Big Mac's character, I noticed you forgot to point out why he's oh so bad at LT. He was pretty good in pass protection last year. Average to below average in run blocking, but as far as pass pro goes he was more then serviceable.



Lots of players come off injuries. I don't see what his broken ankle has to do with anything. He's an older guy, sure, but he's obviously outplayed Reid and KO and whoever else we had competing for that LG spot.



Pro Bowls are absolutely awful indicators of player skill, ESPECIALLY for O-linemen. Maurkice Pouncey has made the Pro Bowl 2 years in a row and he's atrocious (far worse then Birk). Michael Oher made the Pro Bowl his rookie year because his movie came out. Birk remains one of the league's better centers. He did very poorly in the postseason last year with the wear on his body, but he's been nothing but fantastic for us overall. We don't run up the gut because Ray is tiny and can't push the pile. He's not well suited to run up the gut constantly.




I don't think anyone at this point cares what you "consider" Oher to be. He's probably bordering on not being resigned, but he has a lot of potential and has been a solid right tackle. He had the most dominant game of all right tackles last season against Arizona, where he absolutely owned Darnell Dockett.



I don't know why I wasted my time on all this, its clear you don't really have a clue what you're talking about, but whatever.
[/quote]

Nice way to skirt around what I was saying and making arguements out of thin air. Let me simplify this for you.

1. BM does have weak character. Use google if your so inclined and you can see his history of doing stupid [profanity deleted]. He is on this team out of desperation. Ravens should have never messed with Moving Gaither to RT. We had at that time, the best Oline in the league. If we kept that line together, we would be have been champs one of last two years. He is slow and gets beat easy by 1 move DE/OLB and speed rushers. He is too fat and old to react and gets beat.

2. Yes players do come off injuries all the time. The fact that he is at the end of his carrear and his body doesnt heal like a 25 year old is why they cut him. Lineman can have over 500 pounds of pressure on their ankles at times. You think he is going to be able to dig in and push a 320 DT back like a young healthy guy? As someone who has broken his ankle 7 times (army+sports is not forgiving) and sprained it over a dozen, it is never the same afterwards.

3. Why are you arguing about his probowls, all it does is weaken your arguement. Birk is one of the WORST C in the league, physicially. He is old , undersized and injury prone. His name reconignition and ability to call out assignments (beacuse Joe has never had to do it) is the reason he is still there. He is the smartest player on the team and the coaches reconize that.

4. Yes we all know MO is a little slow. 1 decent game does not make off for 10 other bad ones and poor undisiplined penalties. Stop making excuses for him and call a spade a spade.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1347211182' post='1143014']
He also said he prefers guard and lacks range to play tackle. On the plus side he's the best rookie lineman so far from what I've heard of the others.
[/quote]
Actualy he said he prefers Tackle, but he said that Guard is easier (duh).

[baltravens]

This is the way it should be:

RT-Oher
RG-Yanda
C-Birk
LG-KO or Williams (I honestly don't know who is better.)
LT-McKinnie

*Closing words: Please don't mess with our line.