Pass Rush?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I think one thing to consider that hasn't been talked about much with regards to our pass rush is our improved offense.

Granted we have to win the 1-on-1s but I think we're fine. Yes we lost Suggs but he'll be back and pretty darn good this season. Have faith.

And until then our offense will pick up the slack in a couple ways. One we'll sustain drives keeping our D more fresh. More importantly we're gonna play with more leads which means teams will have to play catch up and pass more often. Knowing that frees us up to blitz more and really get after the QB. I think that alone will carry us over without much drop off til Suggs gets back. And when he does he's gonna put up monster numbers.

McPhee, Kruger, Ngata, Upshaw, and kindle all put up good sack numbers this year. I really think Kindles gonna surprise us as a rush specialist.

[wayne]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1346524965' post='1136654']
The lack of pass-rush from our 3-4 OLBs is very concerned, though I don't think it's as doom & gloom as people make it out to be. There are many ways to get pressure in the 3-4 not just the OLBs. Personally, I think (hope) we adapt to the weaknesses of our OLBs.

One way of masking our weakness is to become creative with our fronts and use our personnel to an advantage. Just because Kruger hasn't been very good at covering or because Upshaw has appeared slow and Kindle seems lost doesn't mean the Ravens defense will become the Rams' from last year. I expect Pees to use our defensive line to acquire the pressure since our OLBs don't seem capable of doing it. While our pass-rushers are ineffective at OLB, I like our pass-rushers on the DL. Ngata, McPhee, Kemoeatu, Hall, and even Tyson have all shown they can rush the passer. Hall even played at linebacker in this last game. Also, remember that Cody has actually improved this preseason in collapsing the pocket, which is mildly surprising and a welcomed trait. Perhaps we can use that to rush our ILBs up the middle, such as Ray Lewis or Jameel McClain, both of whom can apply pressure up the middle from previous years (let's not discuss Lewis' age here, either...).

I'm just saying that just because our OLBs don't appear to be great doesn't mean we're done. Remember, we have some pretty good CBs, too. I really like what I've seen from Webb, Pollard, and Reed at rushing the passer. Maybe we will use them more on blitzes. Webb & Reed are both fast enough in the game to force fumbles.

I'm really excited to see our pass-rush. I know most people are worried, but I believe this will get fixed. That's not saying I don't want some insurance. I'd like to get a guy like Carter, if not for anything but insurance.
[/quote]

Yea, you can create pressure in other ways but when you facing QBs like Brady, you actually want to keep things pretty vanilla as far as just rushing 4 or 5 and the more people you are able to drop back and still get pressure, the better obviously. OLB is probably the most important position of a 3-4 defense IMO . Hopefully, Pees can draw up D schemes where we can get a lot of coverage sacks and I'm all for blitzing but when facing QBs like Brady, IDK about that ( see how he carves up the Jets against one of the best blitzing masterminds in the business )

[CapoRocky]

You guys seem to be on-track with identifying the need to pick up a veteran pass rush specialist that may have been released due to having too many players at that position on a team. We really need to plan to draft someone at OLB in the first or second round next year again. Also, let's try to trade for someone soon if we are going to make an impact on the first half of the year. Ideally, Suggs would have been the answer to all the problems. Some of you don't think that he will be back or up to speed after his time on the PUP list is up. I think that just having him in there makes a difference whether he's 100% or not. We can't rush him and cause another injury. There is a fine line between ready and shouldn't play yet. It seems that in the past our worst games have come when we have let a good QB have too much time to pick apart our secondary. Still, there will be losses this year regardless of how good we play.

[Radinho84]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1346586424' post='1137128']
You guys seem to be on-track with identifying the need to pick up a veteran pass rush specialist that may have been released due to having too many players at that position on a team. We really need to plan to draft someone at OLB in the first or second round next year again. Also, let's try to trade for someone soon if we are going to make an impact on the first half of the year. Ideally, Suggs would have been the answer to all the problems. Some of you don't think that he will be back or up to speed after his time on the PUP list is up. I think that just having him in there makes a difference whether he's 100% or not. We can't rush him and cause another injury. There is a fine line between ready and shouldn't play yet. It seems that in the past our worst games have come when we have let a good QB have too much time to pick apart our secondary. Still, there will be losses this year regardless of how good we play.
[/quote]
it isn´t done with drafting an olb in the first round. those guys that make an impact on their position very early an being a big factor of a team are often picked in the top 10-15. guys like miller are never available for us in the draft. there is a reason why upshaw dropped that far and as of right now i can understand why.

i hope he wasn't just a big bodied guy that outmuscled his opponents in college like gholston. this is very early and he has a lot of time to show his potential but as of right now i am really disappointed with him.

i didn´t expect a ten+ sack season out of him like some other guys in here but i thought he would be more flashy in training camp. basically he was outplayed be un undrafted player from two years ago.

at the end of the day i think that our pass rush will be good with ngata, mcphee, kruger and albert. i have much more confidence in our secondary at this point of the year than i had last year at this time.

i am really looking forward to get the season started. big year is coming for us. i can feel it!!! :-)

[CapoRocky]

The Patriots have released Bobby Carpenter. He's not a pass rush specialist but might catch on with someone when one of their LBs go down. Not the right kind of player for us.

[Rav'n Maniac]

I've just seen on the home page someone posted that Adrian Hamilton waived by the Cowboys was on his way to town to sign on the PS. 20-1/2 sacks in his senior year. Visited the Cowboys site and some of their fans are upset with his leaving. Some say he will be a beast for us considering we could use a pass rush specialist. Hope he developes quickly and we can retain him on the PS till he's ready.

[mhead66]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' timestamp='1346567374' post='1137113']
I think one thing to consider that hasn't been talked about much with regards to our pass rush is o[b]ur improved offense.[/b]

Granted we have to win the 1-on-1s but I think we're fine. Yes we lost Suggs but he'll be back and pretty darn good this season. Have faith.

And until then our offense will pick up the slack in a couple ways. One we'll sustain drives keeping our D more fresh. More importantly [size=5][b]w[/b][/size][size=4][size=5][b]e're gonna play with more leads [/b][/size]w[/size]hich means teams will have to play catch up and pass more often. Knowing that frees us up to blitz more and really get after the QB. I think that alone will carry us over without much drop off til Suggs gets back. And when he does he's gonna put up monster numbers.

McPhee, Kruger, Ngata, Upshaw, and kindle all put up good sack numbers this year. I really think Kindles gonna surprise us as a rush specialist.
[/quote]

It's good to be an optimist, concerning our offense, but a good offense isn't a [b]solution[/b] to a problem on defense - it just masks it.

Look at Green Bay last year - they had the [u][b]worst[/b][/u] pass defense in history last year (they gave up the most passing yards in history) and yet, they went 15-1... because of their offense.

However, their ability to score didn't "fix" their defense, it just covered for it. And I'm not certain we've taken [b]THAT[/b] much of a leap in our offense. Ten of our starters are [u][b]the same[/b][/u] as last year, with Osemele replacing Ben Grubbs as the [b]only[/b] change... I don't think you can say that the addition of Osemele makes up for the loss of Terrell Suggs...

[mhead66]

[quote name='Rav'n Maniac' timestamp='1346598511' post='1137203']
I've just seen on the home page someone posted that Adrian Hamilton waived by the Cowboys was on his way to town to sign on the PS. 20-1/2 sacks in his senior year. Visited the Cowboys site and some of their fans are upset with his leaving. Some say he will be a beast for us considering we could use a pass rush specialist. Hope he developes quickly and we can retain him on the PS till he's ready.
[/quote]
Yes, he's definitely worth a look... and may develop into an asset, with some seasoning.

But I put him in the same category as Mike McAdoo - a kid with lots of upside, that needs an opportunity to learn an NFL defense. Given that chance, he may develop into a pass-rushing demon... eventually.

Of course, the problem is now... because of the loss of T-Sizzle. Suggs will be back next year, so we don't need a developmental rookie to compensate for Suggs. Like I said, though - I agree with you - Hamilton is worth the effort, for the future.

[mhead66]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1346594272' post='1137154']
The Patriots have released Bobby Carpenter. He's not a pass rush specialist but might catch on with someone when one of their LBs go down. Not the right kind of player for us.
[/quote]

Matt Roth is still unsigned. He's had 11 sacks the last 3 years, with Jacksonville and Cleveland. He's only 29 - his only problem is concussions. If he's healthy, he may be worth a look.

[mhead66]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1346541399' post='1136841']
I agree that the DL is crucial for us with the loss of Suggs even more than it was before. We must get pressure with them or else we're in serious trouble. I don't think this will be a problem because I really like our DL more than our OLBs.

I agree with mostly everything you said except Lewis and McClain being unable to rush up the middle. I think they can do it, especially McClain. McClain used to be an OLB/DE in college and even put up respectable numbers doing it. I have a little hope he can muster something if we did use him like that, though I feel that will be few and far between since he will be even more responsible for covering TEs due to the weak OLB coverage.

I agree with the secondary blitzes; I just see us using them to compensate for the lack of pressure I feel our OLBs will get. If everything works out well, one or two of our OLBs will hold it down until Suggs returns (hopefully to form).

I'm glad we agree that the Ravens defense isn't done nor will our sacks plummet due to the loss of Suggs.
[/quote]
Good post.

Ya, I think McClain can definitely pass rush up the middle, with his combination of speed and size. Ellerbe, too. I think we should try it, 2-3 times/game. However, it comes with a risk - if you need more than the 3 DLinemen and 2 OLBs to generate pressure - if you have to bring 6 - then you leave your DBs terribly exposed. [b]That[/b] was my concern... but, yep - I agree with everything in your post.

[BloodRaven]

I don't think Art Jones should be starting if McPhee is healthy, at this point he's just a nose tackle. It was really sad watching him try to get to the QB over and over again.

[RavenManiac#7]

I think that all you people who keep saying "it's only preseason" are just deceiving yourselves. I love my Ravens and will back them with the best of you, but I'm telling you, we have serious concerns. This lack of a pass rush is serious business folks. And worse yet, that's not the only shortcoming we have on defense. We will be run on unless we set the edge better. Don't forget the strength of schedule we have and the QBs we will face. If we don't pressure them they will stand back there and pick us apart. The way Ozzie loves draft choices it is highly doubtful he will give up high picks to trade for top quality pass rushers. And even if he would, they are so highly valued in this pass happy league who do you think would be willing to trade them? The Giants won the SB last year and their ability to put so much pressure on QBs was one of the biggest reason why they did. I have Never said this about the Ravens, but this year I actually have more confidence in our offense than our defense. And that's even taking my concerns about the OL into consideration. I was thinking just last year when Ominyuri (I can't spell his name, sorry) was unhappy with the Giants that we should have done whatever it took to get him. More than ever, I wish we would have. I believe our only hope is for our improved offense to score more points, because I definitely think we'll be giving up more than we're accustomed to.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1346606199' post='1137287']


It's good to be an optimist, concerning our offense, but a good offense isn't a [b]solution[/b] to a problem on defense - it just masks it.

Look at Green Bay last year - they had the [u][b]worst[/b][/u] pass defense in history last year (they gave up the most passing yards in history) and yet, they went 15-1... because of their offense.

However, their ability to score didn't "fix" their defense, it just covered for it. And I'm not certain we've taken [b]THAT[/b] much of a leap in our offense. Ten of our starters are [u][b]the same[/b][/u] as last year, with Osemele replacing Ben Grubbs as the [b]only[/b] change... I don't think you can say that the addition of Osemele makes up for the loss of Terrell Suggs...
[/quote]

Our defense also doesn't have nearly as many holes as green bays. They don't have a ngata, Lewis, Reed, pollard, webb, ect.

We're not talking a deficient defense. Just a slacking pass rush

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='RavenManiac#7' timestamp='1346629151' post='1137563']
I think that all you people who keep saying "it's only preseason" are just deceiving yourselves. I love my Ravens and will back them with the best of you, but I'm telling you, we have serious concerns. This lack of a pass rush is serious business folks. And worse yet, that's not the only shortcoming we have on defense. We will be run on unless we set the edge better. Don't forget the strength of schedule we have and the QBs we will face. If we don't pressure them they will stand back there and pick us apart. The way Ozzie loves draft choices it is highly doubtful he will give up high picks to trade for top quality pass rushers. And even if he would, they are so highly valued in this pass happy league who do you think would be willing to trade them? The Giants won the SB last year and their ability to put so much pressure on QBs was one of the biggest reason why they did. I have Never said this about the Ravens, but this year I actually have more confidence in our offense than our defense. And that's even taking my concerns about the OL into consideration. [b]I was thinking just last year when Ominyuri (I can't spell his name, sorry) was unhappy with the Giants that we should have done whatever it took to get him.[/b] More than ever, I wish we would have. I believe our only hope is for our improved offense to score more points, because I definitely think we'll be giving up more than we're accustomed to.
[/quote]

Would you feel that way if we hadn't lost Suggs? We have very little cap space, and other important guys on this team have been paid while others are next. There's no room for Osi, especially since we'll be down Suggs for just a season, if that. I wouldn't give up a high draft pick for a one year replacement, or a number 2 pass rusher.

[mhead66]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' timestamp='1346631406' post='1137596']
Our defense also doesn't have nearly as many holes as green bays. They don't have a ngata, Lewis, Reed, pollard, webb, ect.

We're not talking a deficient defense. Just a slacking pass rush
[/quote]

Oh, I totally agree. I still think we can be a top-10 defense... if we can generate a pass rush. My only point in comparing us with Green Bay was to say that GB has a terrible defense... but they remain competitive with a powerful offense. We don't have enough offense to ignore the defense, like they do.

But our defense is [b]MUCH[/b] better than GBs!

[beasy2487]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1346633302' post='1137629']
Oh, I totally agree. I still think we can be a top-10 defense... if we can generate a pass rush. My only point in comparing us with Green Bay was to say that GB has a terrible defense... but they remain competitive with a powerful offense. We don't have enough offense to ignore the defense, like they do.

But our defense is [b]MUCH[/b] better than GBs!
[/quote]

Mmm you could also make the opposite argument. We've seen some of the worst passing defenses in history over the past few years in NE, NO, and GB. What do these teams have in common? New era passing offenses. You can say oh that's because those teams invested so much in the offense they couldn't concentrate on D. I'll give you that for the Saints, but the Pats and GB have been about 50-50 in the draft, neither are the type of team trade away a lot of picks, and in the Pats' case they tend to stockpile later picks so it can't really be argued they're skewing offense over defense.

I think a factor that is underrated is that [i]because [/i]of these unprecedented offenses, the offenses they face have an unprecedented amount of opportunities to strike through the air. Moreover, because prolific quarterbacks lead those teams their opponents are forced to pass whether it's a high percentage play or not. This inflates passing stats, particularly those that are gained in garbage time because teams are just trying to make scores respectable.

So while I agree that we are not in that situation because our defense is far better than those two fundamentally, I don't think any of those were defenses are quite as bad as they seem now looking at the stats.

[Donte]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1346633302' post='1137629']
Oh, I totally agree. I still think we can be a top-10 defense... if we can generate a pass rush. My only point in comparing us with Green Bay was to say that GB has a terrible defense... but they remain competitive with a powerful offense. We don't have enough offense to ignore the defense, like they do.

But our defense is [b]MUCH[/b] better than GBs!
[/quote]

The main reason GB has a bad defense is because they offense puts up points...they defense gives up alot of passing because teams was playing catch up all game

and nice to see you live in Glen burnie...i was raised there

[The Raven]

[quote name='mhead66' timestamp='1346606622' post='1137293']
Matt Roth is still unsigned. He's had 11 sacks the last 3 years, with Jacksonville and Cleveland. He's only 29 - his only problem is concussions. If he's healthy, he may be worth a look.
[/quote]

11 sacks in three years? That's pretty average. That would be a slight upgrade over JJ.

Also, if he was unsigned at the start of camp, its probably for a good reason.

[flynismo]

I think that you are under rating Kruger big time. And lets see Upshaw play a season before we give up on him. We will be stacked at OLB when Suggs returns.

[KillaBirdTJ]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1346690720' post='1138087']
I think that you are under rating Kruger big time. And lets see Upshaw play a season before we give up on him. We will be stacked at OLB when Suggs returns.
[/quote]

I hope so Fly... I hope so.

[flynismo]

[quote name='KillaBirdTJ' timestamp='1346692726' post='1138143']


I hope so Fly... I hope so.
[/quote]

Then again, I was also the one who cursed up a storm when we drafted Torrey ... lol

[flynismo]

See, I like Pees, but at the same time, I also worry about how he is going to fit as the man in charge of this defense. I am very confident that the talent is there to produce a defense that.we are accustomed to having in Baltimore. But, I am a little worried having our third different DC in as many seasons...we need stability

[krrock10]

I think sacks are a pretty irrelevant stat. There have been games in past years where we may have had 2 sacks, but got zero pressure the rest of the game.

What scares me is our complete lack of ability to get into the back field. Whether it be pressuring the QB or getting to the RB in the back field, we seem to be missing that explosive playmaking ability from the line.

In my mind, I would like to see the Ravens rotating players more often. If we can get fresh legs in there (and keep Ngata fresh), I think it will help our pass rush considerably. I really don't understand why teams dont rotate the Dline more often. It seems exhausting trying to get after the QB so often.

[flynismo]

[quote name='krrock10' timestamp='1346697355' post='1138227']
I think sacks are a pretty irrelevant stat. There have been games in past years where we may have had 2 sacks, but got zero pressure the rest of the game.

What scares me is our complete lack of ability to get into the back field. Whether it be pressuring the QB or getting to the RB in the back field, we seem to be missing that explosive playmaking ability from the line.

In my mind, I would like to see the Ravens rotating players more often. If we can get fresh legs in there (and keep Ngata fresh), I think it will help our pass rush considerably. I really don't understand why teams dont rotate the Dline more often. It seems exhausting trying to get after the QB so often.
[/quote]


No, I'd say sacks are a very important stat. A sack more often than not will kill a drive, especially against a tough defense like ours. Not to mention the phsycological effects it has on a defense when you need to swing the momentum back in your favor.
Hurries and hits are important too, but we cant pretend that finishing and getting that sack isnt important.

[krrock10]

My point (which should have been worded better) is that sacks can be deceiving sometimes. Even though we had a lot of sacks as a team last year, there were still numerous times where I felt we had no pressure.

Either way, I don't see the Ravens generating nearly enough pressure, let alone, recording many sacks this year.

[The Raven]

[quote name='krrock10' timestamp='1346699088' post='1138261']
My point (which should have been worded better) is that sacks can be deceiving sometimes. [b]Even though we had a lot of sacks as a team last year, there were still numerous times where I felt we had no pressure.[/b]

Either way, I don't see the Ravens generating nearly enough pressure, let alone, recording many sacks this year.
[/quote]

I think you could say that about every team in the NFL...

[flynismo]

[quote name='krrock10' timestamp='1346699088' post='1138261']
My point (which should have been worded better) is that sacks can be deceiving sometimes. Even though we had a lot of sacks as a team last year, there were still numerous times where I felt we had no pressure.

Either way, I don't see the Ravens generating nearly enough pressure, let alone, recording many sacks this year.
[/quote]

Fair enough, I agree that pretty much any stat can be decieving.

As for getting pressure, I think we will struggle at times, but I don't think it will be too bad either...especially if The Jimmy (Smith) steps it up and shows why he is one of my main man crushes; we should see some morecoverage sacks this year.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1346690720' post='1138087']
I think that you are under rating Kruger big time. And lets see Upshaw play a season before we give up on him. We will be stacked at OLB when Suggs returns.
[/quote]

Thank you.

Let's give Upshaw time to get reps and play healthy before we're declaring him a bust. He played hurt and because he didn't blow your minds you think he's no good?? The kid will be a stud in time for the Patriots, trust me

Kruger can play, but its his first year with a large role. Let him adjust. Kindle may add some pass rush.

Suggs is a great player but I think our defense makes him even better. Our current guys have the talent. We may see a drop initially but give it a few games before mortgaging the future for a player that will be a waste once Suggs returns... Which he will this season. Book it

[BMORElegacy]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1346694696' post='1138176']
Then again, I was also the one who [b]cursed up a storm[/b] when we drafted Torrey ... lol
[/quote]You and me both. My brother had to talk me off the edge that night.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='BOLDnPurPnBlacK' timestamp='1346817100' post='1139785']


Thank you.

Let's give Upshaw time to get reps and play healthy before we're declaring him a bust. He played hurt and because he didn't blow your minds you think he's no good?? The kid will be a stud in time for the Patriots, trust me

Kruger can play, but its his first year with a large role. Let him adjust. Kindle may add some pass rush.

Suggs is a great player but I think our defense makes him even better. Our current guys have the talent. We may see a drop initially but give it a few games before mortgaging the future for a player that will be a waste once Suggs returns... Which he will this season. Book it
[/quote]If your referring to me about upshaw, I thought he wouldn't translate to the Nfl before we even drafted him. Nothing to do with his injury or how he played in preseason, I just didn't think he would fit to well and didn't want him here, was disappointed when we took him