New Ravens With 3.381 Million Cap Space?

[Ravens4Real]

Flacco does not deserve the money that Eli and Ben make. They are in a different tier and also have two SB rings a piece. The Ravnes FO would be asinine to give Flacco that when he has won absolutely nothing.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravens4Real' timestamp='1342773440' post='1100947']
Flacco does not deserve the money that Eli and Ben make. They are in a different tier and also have two SB rings a piece. The Ravnes FO would be asinine to give Flacco that when he has won absolutely nothing.
[/quote]
so your ignoring their deals were years ago, and therefore inflation. your ignoring eli only had one ring at the time of his deal, your ignoring that to win superbowls, we need to catch the ball (evans, boldin, housch), your ignoring at the time of their deals, the superbowls is the only difference between them and flacco, because play and stats are very similar, flacco possibly even better than eli, ben maybe slightly better again, but all similar.

You cant compare joe to them now to compare contracts, you compare at the time they got their deal. The superbowls are the only thing seperating them two then, and joe now, which is easily accounted for due to inflation. Its possibly even more...

[Yum Chickens]

I don't think Flacco is top 5, I think he's in the top 10. For now. Potential to be there? Yes. Will he though? We'll see.

However any agent wanting to stand up for his player is obviously going to say his QB is one of the best, they wouldn't have a job if they didn't.

[nk02442]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1342787088' post='1100966']
so your ignoring their deals were years ago, and therefore inflation. your ignoring eli only had one ring at the time of his deal, your ignoring that to win superbowls, we need to catch the ball (evans, boldin, housch), your ignoring at the time of their deals, the superbowls is the only difference between them and flacco, because play and stats are very similar, flacco possibly even better than eli, ben maybe slightly better again, but all similar.

You cant compare joe to them now to compare contracts, you compare at the time they got their deal. The superbowls are the only thing seperating them two then, and joe now, which is easily accounted for due to inflation. Its possibly even more...
[/quote]

You pay for production, not excuses. The difference is that both of those players (eli and ben) have incrementaly improved year to year. Joe has not. You can blame it on anything and the moon, but they are not going to pay a player beacuse of what shoulda or coulda happened. Produce and get paid. Thats how this league works.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1342795399' post='1101040']
You pay for production, not excuses. The difference is that both of those players (eli and ben) have incrementaly improved year to year. Joe has not. You can blame it on anything and the moon, but they are not going to pay a player beacuse of what shoulda or coulda happened. Produce and get paid. Thats how this league works.
[/quote]
Joe has improved. If you cant see that you arent paying attention. And no, you dont pay for production. You pay for future prouduction. There is a big difference.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1342795708' post='1101046']

Joe has improved. If you cant see that you arent paying attention. And no, you dont pay for production. You pay for future prouduction. There is a big difference.
[/quote]
Bingo! To say Joe hasnt improved is hilarious! I love this board. With a lot of the new folks (as we continue to gain popularity), this should be an intersting season!

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='Yum Chickens' timestamp='1342794015' post='1101015']
I don't think Flacco is top 5, I think he's in the top 10. For now. Potential to be there? Yes. Will he though? We'll see.

However any agent wanting to stand up for his player is obviously going to say his QB is one of the best, they wouldn't have a job if they didn't.
[/quote]

When you look at the entire situation, Joe Linta is right. Flacco will be paid as a top 5 QB, because he'll have a top 5 contract. Look at the top 5 contracts as they stand right now.

Drew Brees: 5yrs/100M 20 mil per 60M guaranteed
Peyton Manning: 5yrs/96M 19.2 Mil per 58M guaranteed
Sam Bradford: 5yrs/78M 13Mi per 50M guaranteed(Rookie)
Tom Brady: 5yrs/78M 15.7 Mil per 48M guaranteed
M. Stafford: 6yrs/72M 12 Mil per 41M guaranteed(Rookie)

These are the top QB contracts heading into 2013. No other QBs in the NFL are making 40M guaranteed. Bradford and Stafford got those deals as rookie. There has been some here that disagree with me that Flacco will and should get a contract similar to the ones Rivers, Ben, and Eli got in 2009. By the same standards of Flacco hasn't done what those guys have done, wouldn't you agree he's done more then a guy like Sam Bradford? Flacco has outperformed him. You don't think his people will ask to exceed that 13 Mil per? Then there is Stafford. Yea he had a great 2012 and showed tremendous potential moving forward, but you don't think that Flacco's people who will look to the overall accomplishments of Flacco as reason to atleast match that 40 M guaranteed?

If Flacco gets 15 mil per year with 40M guaranteed, that'd put him in the top 5 contracts for QBs. Now he won't stay there long, because guys like Rogers, Eli, Ben, and Rivers are about to get new deals, but for 2013, Flacco would have a top 5 contract.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1342795399' post='1101040']
You pay for production, not excuses. The difference is that both of those players (eli and ben) have incrementaly improved year to year. Joe has not. You can blame it on anything and the moon, but they are not going to pay a player beacuse of what shoulda or coulda happened. Produce and get paid. Thats how this league works.
[/quote]Your no understanding... Joe is worth the same contract eli and ben signed. They are probably due a new contract actually, he is worth what they are on now, simple as. He isnt worth what they are going to get in a year or two, well eli, ben may not due to health, but eli will be getting a new deal, and joe is right in that slot where eli/rives/ben sit now.

The slot below is kolb, fitzpatrick, sanchez and the likes. You can argue they are overpaid, but that doesnt change the fact they have set market value for that teir of QB, and joe is better, his agent wont accept that 12/13 mil range.

Eli will probably go up to about 17 or so, along wwith brady, peyton and brees in that 17 - 20 mil range. A Rod is on 8 and he will be getting a new deal and will be up in that 17 - 20 range as well unless he takes discount.

Matt Ryan will be in around the 14-16 along with Joe, Eli and Ben currently, and Rivers. That is where Joes value is, probably at the lowe of the range, 14 maybe 15 average a year.

Thats the market value, its the different tiers of QB, Joe is in that 2nd MV tier, no ifs or buts about it.

He may not be in the second teir of QBS in play, id say hes behind eli, ben and rivers, but because of the teir below him (sanchez kolb etc) being over paid, the 2nd and third tier QBS PAY will be merged, ie ben, eli, matt, joe, rivers...

You cant argue with MV values, and thats how his agent will be looking at it. Only way he will go into the third tier of QB pay (11-13 range) is if he gets a bigger signing bonus, and more guaranteed money, and therefore settles for a little less.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1342795399' post='1101040']
You pay for production, not excuses. The difference is that both of those players (eli and ben) have incrementaly improved year to year. Joe has not. You can blame it on anything and the moon, but they are not going to pay a player beacuse of what shoulda or coulda happened. Produce and get paid. Thats how this league works.
[/quote]

So Flacco didn't improve from his 08' rookie season to his 10' rookie season? I think we all agree that he had his worse statical season in 2011, with 57% and 80 QB Rating and he still passed for 3,600 yards. There has only been 3 QBs in Ravens franchise history to throw for 3,600 yards and Flacco did it in his "worse" season.

You say those players have incermentaly improved from year to year and they got their deals because they produced. Ok well lets look at Eli over the years he "produced" to get that big deal. Don't look at Eli in 2010-2011. Look at him from 2005-2008 the years he had to produce to get his deal.

Eli never completed atleast 60% of his passes until 08'. 53.8%, 57.7%, 56.1% and 60.3%. Is that what you call improvement from year to year? His passing totals over that time, 3,762-3,244-3,336-3,238. Is that improvement? He threw 17, 18, 20 and 10 INTs over that time frame. He had QB Rating of 75.9,77.0,73.9 and 86.4. Are you really gonna look at those numbers and tell me that Eli earned his deal because of those numbers?

Yea eli won a Super Bowl and Joe hasn't ok. But if you think that the superbowl is the sole reason why the Giants gave Eli 35M guaranteed and that's the only reason Flacco won't surpass that number, you're not being realistic imo.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1342805493' post='1101190']
Your no understanding... Joe is worth the same contract eli and ben signed. They are probably due a new contract actually, he is worth what they are on now, simple as. He isnt worth what they are going to get in a year or two, well eli, ben may not due to health, but eli will be getting a new deal, and joe is right in that slot where eli/rives/ben sit now.

The slot below is kolb, fitzpatrick, sanchez and the likes. You can argue they are overpaid, but that doesnt change the fact they have set market value for that teir of QB, and joe is better, his agent wont accept that 12/13 mil range.

Eli will probably go up to about 17 or so, along wwith brady, peyton and brees in that 17 - 20 mil range. A Rod is on 8 and he will be getting a new deal and will be up in that 17 - 20 range as well unless he takes discount.

Matt Ryan will be in around the 14-16 along with Joe, Eli and Ben currently, and Rivers. That is where Joes value is, probably at the lowe of the range, 14 maybe 15 average a year.

Thats the market value, its the different tiers of QB, Joe is in that 2nd MV tier, no ifs or buts about it.

He may not be in the second teir of QBS in play, id say hes behind eli, ben and rivers, but because of the teir below him (sanchez kolb etc) being over paid, the 2nd and third tier QBS PAY will be merged, ie ben, eli, matt, joe, rivers...

You cant argue with MV values, and thats how his agent will be looking at it. Only way he will go into the third tier of QB pay (11-13 range) is if he gets a bigger signing bonus, and more guaranteed money, and therefore settles for a little less.
[/quote]

Honestly it's not even the yearly average of the deal. It's the guaranteed money that determines the value of the contract imo. When you look at the break down these QB contract, it further cements the fact that they are getting paid on potential moreso then produce, especially on that 2nd contract coming out of the rookie deal.

Because I already have his contract up on my screen, I'll breakdown the Eli contract.

From 2009-2012. Eli's cap number was

2009-10.1M
2010-12.1M
2011-14.1M
2012- 9.6M

That is Franchise QB money. Really nothing special there. They gave Eli money based on his potential. His cap number sligthly increased from year to year until 2012. 2012 is the year that the Giants protected themselves against the reality that Eli might not reach that Elite level and they could cut ties with him, before paying him that elite money.

Now from years 2013-2015 Eli's contract breaks down like this.

2013-20.8M
2014-20.4M
2015-19.7M

That is elite level money. That's the same type of money that Brees, Peyton and Brady make. So if Eli continues his improved play, by the time he's due another contract, he'll be looking at the type of deal Drew Brees just signed.

The contract averages out to about 15.2 Mil per year, but it's really a contract that broken down into 2 parts, based on the develop of Eli Manning. The Ravens will do the same with Flacco. He might not even reach that 15 Mil cap number over the first couple years of his deal. But over the final part of his deal, he'll be earning big money.

[nk02442]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1342806253' post='1101201']
So Flacco didn't improve from his 08' rookie season to his 10' rookie season? I think we all agree that he had his worse statical season in 2011, with 57% and 80 QB Rating and he still passed for 3,600 yards. There has only been 3 QBs in Ravens franchise history to throw for 3,600 yards and Flacco did it in his "worse" season.

You say those players have incermentaly improved from year to year and they got their deals because they produced. Ok well lets look at Eli over the years he "produced" to get that big deal. Don't look at Eli in 2010-2011. Look at him from 2005-2008 the years he had to produce to get his deal.

Eli never completed atleast 60% of his passes until 08'. 53.8%, 57.7%, 56.1% and 60.3%. Is that what you call improvement from year to year? His passing totals over that time, 3,762-3,244-3,336-3,238. Is that improvement? He threw 17, 18, 20 and 10 INTs over that time frame. He had QB Rating of 75.9,77.0,73.9 and 86.4. Are you really gonna look at those numbers and tell me that Eli earned his deal because of those numbers?

Yea eli won a Super Bowl and Joe hasn't ok. But if you think that the superbowl is the sole reason why the Giants gave Eli 35M guaranteed and that's the only reason Flacco won't surpass that number, you're not being realistic imo.
[/quote]

Its not about the stats. You cant look at the stats and determine how well that translates to a team winning. Cam newton had a great year, but his team didnt even go .500. Its about the influence the person has on the team. Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Rivers/Eli and maybe Ben ARE the Team. Without them, the teams are garbage. If the ravens had any one of those QB's the years joe was here, we would have been multiple superbowl winners.

Joes Numbers suck. Granted he won some big games for us last year, he still looks like a rookie/2nd year player. He cant go through his progressions, he holds onto the ball to long and take unessisary sacks/fumbles and he still is not reading defenses like he should be at this point. With the physical atributes and where he was as a rookie, he should be one of the premier QB in the league at this point. I dont lay all the blame on him, but you guys need to take your heads out of the sand.

Eli won his city 2 superbowls
Ben won his city 2 superbowls

It doesnt matter if they have 10% complettion rate, their teams win with them at the helm. The only plays that matter are the ones that matter. Untill Joe can be the reason the ravens win consitantly, he is not worth what those players are.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1342808116' post='1101218']
[b]Its not about the stats[/b]. You cant look at the stats and determine how well that translates to a team winning. Cam newton had a great year, but his team didnt even go .500. Its about the influence the person has on the team. Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Rivers/Eli and maybe Ben ARE the Team. Without them, the teams are garbage. If the ravens had any one of those QB's the years joe was here, we would have been multiple superbowl winners.

[b]Joes Numbers suck[/b]. Granted he won some big games for us last year, he still looks like a rookie/2nd year player. He cant go through his progressions, he holds onto the ball to long and take unessisary sacks/fumbles and he still is not reading defenses like he should be at this point. With the physical atributes and where he was as a rookie, he should be one of the premier QB in the league at this point. I dont lay all the blame on him, but you guys need to take your heads out of the sand.

Eli won his city 2 superbowls
Ben won his city 2 superbowls

It doesnt matter if they have 10% complettion rate, their teams win with them at the helm. The only plays that matter are the ones that matter. Untill Joe can be the reason the ravens win consitantly, he is not worth what those players are.
[/quote]

I think you are confused.

[The Raven]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1342808116' post='1101218']
Its not about the stats. You cant look at the stats and determine how well that translates to a team winning. Cam newton had a great year, but his team didnt even go .500. Its about the influence the person has on the team. Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Rivers/Eli and maybe Ben ARE the Team. Without them, the teams are garbage. If the ravens had any one of those QB's the years joe was here, we would have been multiple superbowl winners.

Joes Numbers suck. Granted he won some big games for us last year, he still looks like a rookie/2nd year player. He cant go through his progressions, he holds onto the ball to long and take unessisary sacks/fumbles and he still is not reading defenses like he should be at this point. With the physical atributes and where he was as a rookie, he should be one of the premier QB in the league at this point. I dont lay all the blame on him, but you guys need to take your heads out of the sand.

Eli won his city 2 superbowls
Ben won his city 2 superbowls

It doesnt matter if they have 10% complettion rate, their teams win with them at the helm. The only plays that matter are the ones that matter. Untill Joe can be the reason the ravens win consitantly, he is not worth what those players are.
[/quote]

Oh my goodness...

If it's not about the stats, then what is it about? Winning? That is something Joe has proven that he is good at.

Joe will be paid like a Top 10 QB whether certain people like it or not. A deal that someone like Roethelisberger got would be very fair for Joe. For the hundred millionth time, when a player gets a contract, you are not paying him for what he's already done. You pay him for what he has the potential to do throughout the length of the contract. I thought that was obvious though.

Oh, and what you said about Joe not progressing just plain wrong. While his numbers decreased, many believe that he improved as a quarterback and as a leader last season.

You may think he sucks, but Ozzie doesn't. Ozzie is going to give him a nice contract, and you're going to have to get over it.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='nk02442' timestamp='1342808116' post='1101218']
Its not about the stats. You cant look at the stats and determine how well that translates to a team winning. Cam newton had a great year, but his team didnt even go .500. Its about the influence the person has on the team. Brady/Brees/Rodgers/Rivers/Eli and maybe Ben ARE the Team. Without them, the teams are garbage. If the ravens had any one of those QB's the years joe was here, we would have been multiple superbowl winners.

Joes Numbers suck. Granted he won some big games for us last year, he still looks like a rookie/2nd year player. He cant go through his progressions, he holds onto the ball to long and take unessisary sacks/fumbles and he still is not reading defenses like he should be at this point. With the physical atributes and where he was as a rookie, he should be one of the premier QB in the league at this point. I dont lay all the blame on him, but you guys need to take your heads out of the sand.

Eli won his city 2 superbowls
Ben won his city 2 superbowls

It doesnt matter if they have 10% complettion rate, their teams win with them at the helm. The only plays that matter are the ones that matter. Untill Joe can be the reason the ravens win consitantly, he is not worth what those players are.
[/quote]

Man on this rainy gloomy Friday, you gave me reason to laugh with that post. Thanks man. Eli Manning is the Giants. Picture that. Rivers is the Chargers. I bet LT, Gates and that consistent top 10 defense felt the same.

It gets to the point where I don't even think some of you guys actually think about the critics you throw at Flacco. You just read from the same script.

[JO_75]

I think something acceptable for Joe would be a deal of 7 Years $85 Million with $50 some million in Guarantees with escalators that can take it to $95 Million.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1342835662' post='1101428']
I think something acceptable for Joe would be a deal of 7 Years $85 Million with $50 some million in Guarantees with escalators that can take it to $95 Million.
[/quote]

I don't know where you stand on the whole is he or isn't he, when it comes to Flacco being elite. But if you give him $50M in Guarantees, the debate is over, the Ravens are basically saying Flacco is Elite.

Brees got 60, Manning got 58 and Brady is at 48.5 right now, with his contract coming up soon. 50M would give Flacco a top 3 contract. I love Flacco's potential, but I think 40-42 Mil per year is more his range right now.