Phil Simms: Run First Offense Hurts Flacco

[gabefergy]

I think Simms makes a good point here. You all can say of course if the Ravens pass more his numbers will go up, but it's not just a matter of volume. In pass first offenses, the play-calling and offensive scheme revolve around putting the QB in position to succeed. In our offense, we routinely see Flacco asked to complete 3rd and longs to sustain drives because the running game cant get it going. How often do we pass on First down? It seems last year we almost completely abandoned the vertical 10-20 yard attempts in favor of short dump-offs and deep throws. I would really like to see what Flacco could do in some variation of a West Coast offense that actually utilized 3 WR sets other than on 3rd down.

[Ravens Lover]

coming from a great Super Bowl winning QB who was on the same type of team as the Ravens this is nice to see

[Yum Chickens]

[quote name='codizzle' timestamp='1342361469' post='1098339']
Pretty sure Brady had a top d when he won his titles and Rodgers still has a pretty good d
[/quote]


[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342360066' post='1098335']
But then again... Those QB's didnt have a top tier D... You gotta account that.. Those QB's has to carry their teams because their D is less then average... I know most feel like Flacco can carry your teams (raven fans) but those guys do carry their team.
[/quote]



They had D's that created lots of turnovers true. But their QB rating was also off the charts.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Yum Chickens' timestamp='1342377632' post='1098405']
They had D's that created lots of turnovers true.[b] But their QB rating was also off the charts.[/b]
[/quote]

Not true in Brady's case. He didn't post a QB rating over 90 until his 5th season, 4th as a starter, and by that time he'd already won 2 rings. He didn't reach even 30 TDs in a season until his record-setting 2007 season. In 10 seasons as a starter, he's eclipsed a QB rating over 95 4 times - 2007, 2009-2011. And his defense has largely fallen off since then. Early 2000s Brady (01-06) who won all his Superbowls was about the same as Flacco - 20-25 TDs a season, completion percentage in the low 60s, 12-14 INTs, double-digit fumbles. Then you factor in how good the Steelers have been since 2008 and how good the Bengals passing defense has been, plus how good the Browns have become in the last 2 seasons, and I'd say Flacco can be compared favorably to Brady early on in their careers.

Not to mention, Rodgers sat for 3 full seasons and LEARNED his offense before ever taking an NFL snap. Notice Matt Flynn did the same and looked better than Rodgers in that one start. And remember Matt Cassel, a guy who hadn't started a single game since high school, came in and went 10-5 with a QB rating almost 90 in New England's system.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1342363022' post='1098351']
You kidding me? This is the best offense we've ever had. I can't even fathom how you can think the defense is sick of the offense sabotaging them. Seriously? Did you ever see a Pre-Flacco Ravens game? Do you enjoy watching Flacco lead game-winning drives against Pittsburgh all the time? Or does it disappoint you knowing that Flacco's proving you wrong?

Keep taking shots at Flacco all you want, but he comes up big in the clutch, usually for his receiver to let him down. (Clayton vs New England, Boldin vs Pitt, Housh vs Pitt and Evans vs New England, to name but a few). The few times we've run a hurry-up offense/spread attack he's been at his best.
[/quote]

Come on, dude, this is the guy who still thinks Troy Smith should be our starting QB. His list of quarterbacks he wanted over Flacco included Tim Tebow, Troy Smith, and Michael Vick - notice a theme here?

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1342361550' post='1098340']
Yeah, but will those "staggering numbers" be good numbers or bad numbers? I mean... how many 3 and outs do you people need to see before you see what the rest of us see?

Are those "great, not good throws" great for the Ravens, or the other team?

Sorry, but Simms is wrong. I'm thinking the reason the Ravens offense can't maintain a drive anymore is because they've gotten away from the run game and tried to force Flacco down our throats and "prove" he's the answer! It's so reminiscent of Kyle Boller the way they completely go away from their strength to try and prove something. Not saying Flacco is as bad as Kyle Boller, but the way they insist on letting him be "the man" is very similar.

Remember how divisive the locker-room was at the end of the Brian Billick era? In my opinion, it's getting that way again. Defense sick of the offense sabotaging them.
[/quote]

All I can say to.this is lol. You clearly don't watch our games. You can't. One game that happened last year at Jacksonville and that was hardly all flacco...and the next two weeks he converted how many 3rd and 4th downs to.bring us back in both games? Simms is dead on. Flacco can throw, its just our offense isn't designed to get receivers open consistently and we have had a lot if turn around with replacing old players with younger ones who need to learn and adjust to the NFL.still.

[atljbo]

[quote name='codizzle' timestamp='1342361469' post='1098339']
Pretty sure Brady had a top d when he won his titles and Rodgers still has a pretty good d
[/quote]

Brady just made it to the superbowl with the WORST D in the league... The D Flacco have fun with.. I still dont see how yall lost that game... Bady had a bad game and Flacco did his thing


But the point is those guys carry they team... I feel like they gotta get props for that... Dont get me wrong... It wasnt like that for Brady 1st 3 years or so...

[atljbo]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1342367421' post='1098360']
First, we're talking about Flacco's stats. When you have a good defense, your numbers always go down. So that's not an excuse, it's double counting. Joe puts up worse stats in part because of lack of receivers, a run first offense, and a good defense.

Second, we went 7-0 against teams with top-5 passing defenses, and 6-0 against teams with top-5 defenses overall last year. So if we only win because of defense, and our defense was similarly matched those games, what do you think it was that put us over the edge?
[/quote]

Lets slow down.... Im not taking anything from Flacco... In the situation he is in.. Dude is shining... But you cant have it all as a fan... If your team is known as a Defensive team (which you are) and rightfully so... They will get most of the credit .... It doesnt mean Joe is not doing his thing in that system... He is playing his part,... But do i guy that is asked to do more in another system should get more credit... Ofcourse

Thats not a knock on Flacco... Thats just like big ben... Most have him in that elite QB category but most have him the least dude there and he is there because of his rings.. He was alone for the ride during that 1st SB but did his thing in the other SB... But lets listen to James Harrison comments on big ben after that super bowl lose.

"[size="3"]..Hand the ball off and stop trying to be [url="http://bleacherreport.com/peyton-manning"]Peyton Manning[/url]. You ain’t that and you know it, man; you just get paid like he does.[/size]"

Im just saying in general.. Guys that produce big numbers and is known for carrying their team more generally gets more credit.

[codizzle]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342382389' post='1098429']


Brady just made it to the superbowl with the WORST D in the league... The D Flacco have fun with.. I still dont see how yall lost that game... Bady had a bad game and Flacco did his thing


But the point is those guys carry they team... I feel like they gotta get props for that... Dont get me wrong... It wasnt like that for Brady 1st 3 years or so...
[/quote]
Well I was comparing flacco to you know QB's from his "age group" like Brady early on not Brady after 10 seasons starting.

And yes Brady had the worst defense yards wise but he hardly had the worst defense according to PPG. They were top 15 in that category which is the one that matters.

[H8R]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1342361550' post='1098340']
Yeah, but will those "staggering numbers" be good numbers or bad numbers? I mean... how many 3 and outs do you people need to see before you see what the rest of us see?

Are those "great, not good throws" great for the Ravens, or the other team?

Sorry, but Simms is wrong. I'm thinking the reason the Ravens offense can't maintain a drive anymore is because they've gotten away from the run game and tried to force Flacco down our throats and "prove" he's the answer! It's so reminiscent of Kyle Boller the way they completely go away from their strength to try and prove something. Not saying Flacco is as bad as Kyle Boller, but the way they insist on letting him be "the man" is very similar.

Remember how divisive the locker-room was at the end of the Brian Billick era? In my opinion, it's getting that way again. Defense sick of the offense sabotaging them.
[/quote]

I'd love to meet you in person, that way I can see if you're this negative all the time or when it's just about Joe Flacco. I mean, come on Troy .. I understand it was your job if you wouldn't have gotten that nasty tonsil infection. I know things didn't workout for you in SanFran or Oakland or Pittsburgh , I'm sorry for that . Maybe you can lead the Tuscaloosa Tyrants to a Corn Cob Bowl this year? There's still hope, no need to harbor this pain. Set it free, it will be best for you in the long run. I mean... you did win a Heisman, heck... you went to THEEEE Ohios Stat university! Be proud of that.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342383035' post='1098430']
Lets slow down.... Im not taking anything from Flacco... In the situation he is in.. Dude is shining... But you cant have it all as a fan... If your team is known as a Defensive team (which you are) and rightfully so... They will get most of the credit .... It doesnt mean Joe is not doing his thing in that system... He is playing his part,... But do i guy that is asked to do more in another system should get more credit... Ofcourse

Thats not a knock on Flacco... Thats just like big ben... Most have him in that elite QB category but most have him the least dude there and he is there because of his rings.. He was alone for the ride during that 1st SB but did his thing in the other SB... But lets listen to James Harrison comments on big ben after that super bowl lose.

"[size=3]..Hand the ball off and stop trying to be [url="http://bleacherreport.com/peyton-manning"]Peyton Manning[/url]. You ain’t that and you know it, man; you just get paid like he does.[/size]"

Im just saying in general.. Guys that produce big numbers and is known for carrying their team more generally gets more credit.
[/quote]
Well what's asked of Joe is to perform in an offense without the correct pieces in place. Joe still belongs in the category of QBs who can be called upon to carry their team. We've seen that several times this year - when the Ravens go into a hurry-up offense that starts to resemble the offenses of the elite QBs.

Just a personal grudge of mine... I don't think guys like Rodgers or Brady should get brownie points for carrying a terrible defense when they have stacked offenses around them, and their defense plays in a way to keep the offense shining. As mentioned many times before the AFC Champ game, despite lagging in yards, the Pats were were at the top of the league in interceptions. So was Rodgers' crew. Brees in 09. Everything on these QBs teams are designed to get them to succeed statistically. So, as I said, it's double-counting to say Rodgers/Brady/Brees put up great numbers AND carry their defense. Just as it's double-counting to say Joe put up pedestrian numbers AND his defense/run game makes it easy for him to win games. I know that's how people are going to think though.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342382389' post='1098429']
[b]Brady just made it to the superbowl with the WORST D in the league... The D Flacco have fun with.[/b]. I still dont see how yall lost that game... Bady had a bad game and Flacco did his thing


But the point is those guys carry they team... I feel like they gotta get props for that... Dont get me wrong... It wasnt like that for Brady 1st 3 years or so...
[/quote]

The Pats didn't have the worst defense in the league last season. They were last in a number of categories but they were one of the better play-making defenses in the league. When most of their better defenders were healthy in the post-season, they stepped up as well.

As for the AFC title game, considering Joe was forced to move around in the pocket and make throws into tight windows all game, I wouldn't say he had fun against them. He played well on an individual basis and finished with impressive numbers, but they were well-earned.

I can't take anything from what Brady and other elite QBs do. But I wouldn't say they carry their teams either. Brady looked quite ordinary in the Super Bowl when his freak TE was hobbled and his o-line was getting abused.

[flynismo]

[quote name='The King' timestamp='1342342839' post='1098311']
It seems like an obvious point, but I think the degree of confidence Phil Simms shows in Flacco is pretty impressive. He's not just saying that Flacco's numbers would be better, but that they would be "staggering."
[/quote]

That's the main point that I hope doesn't get lost in the inevitable debate this will cause.

For all the armchair QBs who call Flacco mediocre, we have former star QBs like Jaws and Simms who see quite unabashedly how good Flacco is.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342360066' post='1098335']
But then again... Those QB's didnt have a top tier D... You gotta account that.. Those QB's has to carry their teams because their D is less then average... I know most feel like Flacco can carry your teams (raven fans) but those guys do carry their team.
[/quote]

Superbowl winning defenses

2001 Patriots - 6th in INTs and PPG
2003 Patriots - 1st in INTs and PPG
2004 Patriots - 2nd in PPG, 7th in INTs
2005 Steelers - 2nd in PPG, 19th in INTs
2007 Giants - 17th in PPG, 20th in INTs
2008 Steelers - Ist in PPG, 6th in INTs
2009 Saints - 20th in PPG, 3rd in INTs
2010 Packers - 2nd in PPG, 2nd in INTs

As you can see, only 2 of those 8 superbowl winning teams finished outside of the top 6 in PPG allowed, and only the 2007 Giants finished outside of the top 10 in both PPG allowed and INTs. The one team that isn't on that is is the 2006 Colts, and as a longtime Ravens fan I can tell you first hand Peyton Manning was absolute GARBAGE in the 2006 post-season. It was embarrassing losing to the Colts the way Manning played. He finished with 4 TDs, 7 picks in the postseason, had a quarterback rating higher than 80 ONCE in 4 games (including a rating of 39 against the Ravens), and yet his TEAM still won the Superbowl. So no, quarterbacks hardly ever CARRY their teams to victory in the Superbowl.

[CapoRocky]

We all know that Simms needs to shut up about Flacco. We are a run first, pass second, and dump it off to Ray out of the backfield third offense. The Patriots knew that in the playoffs but still would have lost the game if Evans had ball control or Cundiff would have make that kick followed by a decent drive. Cameron actually showed a little variety in his play calling last year. I see us scoring more touchdowns with Pitta, Dickson and T. Smith only getting better this year.

[atljbo]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1342386435' post='1098444']
Well what's asked of Joe is to perform in an offense without the correct pieces in place. Joe still belongs in the category of QBs who can be called upon to carry their team. We've seen that several times this year - when the Ravens go into a hurry-up offense that starts to resemble the offenses of the elite QBs.

Just a personal grudge of mine... I don't think guys like Rodgers or Brady should get brownie points for carrying a terrible defense when they have stacked offenses around them, and their defense plays in a way to keep the offense shining. As mentioned many times before the AFC Champ game, despite lagging in yards, the Pats were were at the top of the league in interceptions. So was Rodgers' crew. Brees in 09. Everything on these QBs teams are designed to get them to succeed statistically. So, as I said, it's double-counting to say Rodgers/Brady/Brees put up great numbers AND carry their defense. Just as it's double-counting to say Joe put up pedestrian numbers AND his defense/run game makes it easy for him to win games. I know that's how people are going to think though.
[/quote]

When a D have a powerful offense.. They should get more ints... Times have to pass more to compete with them... Its like the Peyton Manning affect... The Colts D looked good (except vs the run) because teams had to pass the ball more to hang with Peyton.


TRUST ME.... I hate the Saints with every bone in my body... I mean every bone but Brees is one bad man... The Saints D would be way worst then Average if it wasnt for Brees... If you dont have a top tier D... Your offense will have to put up numbers to compete with that offense... Their D benefits from that BIG TIME... I see it every week...

[atljbo]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1342394281' post='1098463']
Superbowl winning defenses

2001 Patriots - 6th in INTs and PPG
2003 Patriots - 1st in INTs and PPG
2004 Patriots - 2nd in PPG, 7th in INTs
2005 Steelers - 2nd in PPG, 19th in INTs
2007 Giants - 17th in PPG, 20th in INTs
2008 Steelers - Ist in PPG, 6th in INTs
2009 Saints - 20th in PPG, 3rd in INTs
2010 Packers - 2nd in PPG, 2nd in INTs

As you can see, only 2 of those 8 superbowl winning teams finished outside of the top 6 in PPG allowed, and only the 2007 Giants finished outside of the top 10 in both PPG allowed and INTs. The one team that isn't on that is is the 2006 Colts, and as a longtime Ravens fan I can tell you first hand Peyton Manning was absolute GARBAGE in the 2006 post-season. It was embarrassing losing to the Colts the way Manning played. He finished with 4 TDs, 7 picks in the postseason, had a quarterback rating higher than 80 ONCE in 4 games (including a rating of 39 against the Ravens), and yet his TEAM still won the Superbowl. So no, quarterbacks hardly ever CARRY their teams to victory in the Superbowl.
[/quote]

Dude you need a D to win in the playoffs... Thats without a doubt... But if you are telling me a QB that helps his D (by the points and pressure he puts on other teams does not deserve more credit... Thats just crazy to me.. No one is discrediting your QB...

I do give guys who put up points (which helps Defenses) props... Thats what make those guys ELITE to me (except big ben)

[The Raven]

I wish we could put Flacco on the Saints for a year. Let him have the offensive line, running backs, and receiving threats that Brees has. Let him play the soft and sorry defenses that Brees plays against. I guarantee you that Flacco would make a killing with that supporting cast and against those defenses. Not to take anything away from Brees, but I completely doubt he would have had as great a season if he had Flacco's offense and played in the AFC North.

[atljbo]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1342397678' post='1098477']
I wish we could put Flacco on the Saints for a year. Let him have the offensive line, running backs, and receiving threats that Brees has. Let him play the soft and sorry defenses that Brees plays against. I guarantee you that Flacco would make a killing with that supporting cast and against those defenses. Not to take anything away from Brees, but I completely doubt he would have had as great a season if he had Flacco's offense and played in the AFC North.
[/quote]

Dude Brees put up 462 passing Yards and 4 Tds on the 49ers to go ahead on the score board..... Then his D made Alex Smith look like Johnny U.

I think Flacco or any QB would look better then they look now under Sean Peyton Coaching... The same with Rodgers under McCarthy but i dont think anybody can just be a brees and Rodgers... You are short changing them over something you think.. I think Matt Ryan would look good behind Brees line not getting hit the 3rd or 4th most of any QB last year... But i cant short change what Brees do... Thats his situation.... Just like Flacco has his.


You cant have it all

[da#1ravensfan]

Flacco makes great throws every game because he has to. Flacco is ask to make some of the most difficult throws in the league because receivers struggles to gain separation and the plays are slow to develop. Flacco has to fit the ball in the most difficult places and tightest windows in the league. He also have to deal with the toughest pass defenses in the league every year in the afc north. If anyone thinks that Flacco cant be a great quarterback have to be a hater because he proves time and time again that he can get it done despite the extra critism.

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='da#1ravensfan' timestamp='1342401013' post='1098488']
Flacco makes great throws every game because he has to. Flacco is ask to make some of the most difficult throws in the league because receivers struggles to gain separation and the plays are slow to develop. Flacco has to fit the ball in the most difficult places and tightest windows in the league. He also have to deal with the toughest pass defenses in the league every year in the afc north. If anyone thinks that Flacco cant be a great quarterback have to be a hater because he proves time and time again that he can get it done despite the extra critism.
[/quote]

No man...it's all about the stats and he cant run like all new qbs are supposed to...see this is why I stopped posting on here for a while. People like you and me have eyes to see and ears to hear, but some people see Flacco and say he's not flashy, not fast, he must suck.

[Suggs Package]

I think Phil is right regarding not only Flacco, but every above average QB in the NFL in a run-first offense. Simply, passing the ball is more efficient than running (Flacco: 6.7 Yards per passing attempt; Rice: 4.7 yards per rushing attempt). If you have a somewhat capable QB, you should be throwing it most of the time. In today's NFL, you should only use a run-first offense if your QB sucks, is turnover prone, or if your QB scrambles like Vick/Newton/etc.

[Greatness]

See? Phil Simms is saying what I've been telling cats since 2008. No worries though, that corner of Baltimore and the entire world will soon learn.

[Sizzlebshu]

This article is nothing new. We are a run first offense because we have invested so much into our D. Flacco will never be Rodgers because he doesn't have what Rodger's has to work with. He arguably has the best receiver core in the league along with probably a top 5 if not top 10 TE. In addition to that he has an o line that is especially adept at pass blocking. For our run offense we invest considerably less and have our D keep games close so that our offense can function. If we invested less into our D and more into our offense then im sure Flacco would flourish into an elite qb.

Part of what makes Big Ben such an elite qb is that their scouts are good at finding Wide Receiver talent. As said before Ben's numbers will never be equivalent to Rodgers, but the reason the team is so resilient is because when they are down, they have the talent to switch into a passing offense (both wallace and brown topped the 1000 yd receiving mark, something we have yet to do in Flacco's tenure)

This is all on our scouting department though. We need to get people that can find this talent and then we need to find a way to make it a priority to draft these people.

[Renediffie]

werent Ravens one teams of that passed the most per attempt last year?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Renediffie' timestamp='1342433004' post='1098548']
werent Ravens one teams of that passed the most per attempt last year?
[/quote]ohhh that gave me a headache

[Ravenseconbeast]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1342397678' post='1098477']
I wish we could put Flacco on the Saints for a year. Let him have the offensive line, running backs, and receiving threats that Brees has. Let him [b]play the soft and sorry defenses that Brees plays against. I guarantee you that Flacco would make a killing with that supporting cast and against those defenses. Not to take anything away from Brees[/b], but I completely doubt he would have had as great a season if he had Flacco's offense and played in the AFC North.
[/quote]


Just lol.

Flacco would get ripped apart if he was in Saints. Do you know how much points flacco will need to accumulate in order to just win games for Saints? Just to give you a perspective, how many TD has Flacco made that was over +2 TD's a game last season compare to Brees +2 TD's.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1342454201' post='1098641']
Just lol.

Flacco would get ripped apart if he was in Saints. Do you know how much points flacco will need to accumulate in order to just win games for Saints? Just to give you a perspective, how many TD has Flacco made that was over +2 TD's a game last season compare to Brees +2 TD's.
[/quote]you failed to comprehend te whole point he was making

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342397424' post='1098476']
Dude you need a D to win in the playoffs... Thats without a doubt... But if you are telling me a QB that helps his D (by the points and pressure he puts on other teams does not deserve more credit... Thats just crazy to me.. No one is discrediting your QB...

I do give guys who put up points (which helps Defenses) props... Thats what make those guys ELITE to me (except big ben)
[/quote]

No, but you said that those winners didn't have a top-teir D, and I merely pointed out that quite a few of them, in fact, had top-10 defenses - in fact, Aaron Rodger's team finished 2nd in the league in total defense in 2010 and TWO of Brady's defenses were top 2 in the league when he won. And I would strongly disagree on scoring points as the criteria for putting someone in the elite category. Trust me, I lived through THAT debacle in 2001 after we signed Elvis Grbac. in 2000, only Jeff Garcia, Peyton Manning, and Kurt Warner threw for more yards, only those 3 and Donte Culpepper had more passing TDs, and none of those three threw fewer interceptions. He made the probowl, and threw for 7500 yards and 50 TDs in 1999 and 2000 - then he came to Baltimore and played worse than Dilfer had the year before. You have to look at the teams around them and the competition they face, and how they fared head to head. Flacco played 13 of 18 games against defenses ranked in the top 10 in passing in 2011, including twice against the Texans. And he did it with a receiver and two tight ends who had exactly ZERO NFL starts between them going into the season. An elite quarterback, to me, MAKES PLAYS against the best CONSISTENTLY. Flacco is not elite because he hasn't shown me that consistency, but he has made a lot of plays in 4 years.

[CalvinSmoke]

sigh... ever since the salary cap was installed, teams have to follow schemes for their team to be successful, no one will have the perfect team in the NFL anymore, and if someone does pull it off, it wont last very long. Greed will always win.

What schemes you ask? Well the Ravens play a field posession/Time of possesion style of football. Teams that do it well are the Steelers, Texans, 49'ers, used to be Jets. Teams that try to do it but aren't as consistent are the Jaguars, Buccaneers, Raiders, Seahawks etc.

These teams like to get a defense that get the opposing team off of the field quickly, and then have their offense grind you down the field, having the ball as long as possible. They play like bullies, they take your lunch money and then hold it over their heads and play keep away. This keeps their defense fresh, and the offense in rhythem. A lot of money is pumped into the defense, the offenses are often patch-worked.

Now the other, more popular scheme is that blitzkrieg style of play that the Saints, Packers, and Patriots kill at. And the Redskins, Falcons, try to do it. Get as many receiving threats on the field as you possibly can at one time and wear that defense out. Make the opposing offense try to keep up, and play a game they aren't built for. Turnovers are bound to happen.

We can't compare a QB of our bruiser style to the QB's of that blitzkrieg style. It's apples and oranges... Much like comparing Lebron to Jordan.