Phil Simms: Run First Offense Hurts Flacco

[BALTIMOREFLACCO]

Via Rotoworld:

[quote][color=#0000FF][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Verdana][size=3]"Put Flacco on a team where it's all about the quarterback and the offense and he will put up staggering numbers," Simms said. "I never look at his completion percentage and say he's inaccurate. I look at him as a guy who makes great throws, not good ones, every single game. If someone gets open, he hits them. He can throw the football with basically anybody in the NFL. If that's not a franchise quarterback, I don't know what one is."[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

Interesting stuff. I do wish we incorporated more spread considering Flacco is a spread QB. Thoughts??????????

[RivenHale]

Much as I hate to see another Flacco thread, this one I like. Makes a lot of sense, thanks for bringing it up. Never would have seen it otherwise.

[K-Dog]

I would say the article is stating the obvious.

We are generally a run first team, which means pass less. When you pass less, your QB numbers are also less.

[Guest RBates]

Interesting,

Coming from Phil Simms hurts the cause.

[rmw10]

Tell me something I didn't know Simms. A team who runs more will have a QB that doesn't put up as great of numbers? Wow!

[kassaiscool]

Ravens don't draft good Wr's, simple as that. Besides Torrey Smith we really never drafted a good wide out. Both Wide outs we signed in free agency don't fit Cams offense that being Q and Dmase. This is the reason we are a "run first offense" instead of a passing one.

[The King]

It seems like an obvious point, but I think the degree of confidence Phil Simms shows in Flacco is pretty impressive. He's not just saying that Flacco's numbers would be better, but that they would be "staggering." The Ravens simply ask less of him than he is capable of delivering, and in games like the AFC Championship we can clearly see the way he could carry the team.

Phil Simms knows a bit about being a great QB, and especially an accurate one. If he says Flacco makes great throws I'd be apt to believe him.

[Yum Chickens]

Yeah. Whenever people point to better QBs than Flacco like Rodgers or Brady I point to their WRs and then I point to our extensive depth last year at wide receiver (That was a joke).

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Yum Chickens' timestamp='1342351447' post='1098316']
Yeah. Whenever people point to better QBs than Flacco like Rodgers or Brady I point to their WRs and then I point to our extensive depth last year at wide receiver (That was a joke).
[/quote]

You could also look at the division we play in compared to the others, and the fact that we have a dynamic running back in Rice that the others don't have (not to mention that they all have great OCs that are routinely scooped up for HC gigs, and we have a guy that nobody wants).

[atljbo]

Simms didnt say anything any run first offense fan think about their QB...lol..


I will say this... Big Ben is the prefect example ... His stats will never be with the top guys BUT dude makes his attempts count racking up 7.9 yards a pass. Rodgers averaged 9.2 yards a pass... You gotta make each pass count... Flacco def has the arm to do that.

[atljbo]

[quote name='Yum Chickens' timestamp='1342351447' post='1098316']
Yeah. Whenever people point to better QBs than Flacco like Rodgers or Brady I point to their WRs and then I point to our extensive depth last year at wide receiver (That was a joke).
[/quote]

But then again... Those QB's didnt have a top tier D... You gotta account that.. Those QB's has to carry their teams because their D is less then average... I know most feel like Flacco can carry your teams (raven fans) but those guys do carry their team.

[codizzle]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342360066' post='1098335']


But then again... Those QB's didnt have a top tier D... You gotta account that.. Those QB's has to carry their teams because their D is less then average... I know most feel like Flacco can carry your teams (raven fans) but those guys do carry their team.
[/quote]
Pretty sure Brady had a top d when he won his titles and Rodgers still has a pretty good d

[edreedfromtheu]

Yeah, but will those "staggering numbers" be good numbers or bad numbers? I mean... how many 3 and outs do you people need to see before you see what the rest of us see?

Are those "great, not good throws" great for the Ravens, or the other team?

Sorry, but Simms is wrong. I'm thinking the reason the Ravens offense can't maintain a drive anymore is because they've gotten away from the run game and tried to force Flacco down our throats and "prove" he's the answer! It's so reminiscent of Kyle Boller the way they completely go away from their strength to try and prove something. Not saying Flacco is as bad as Kyle Boller, but the way they insist on letting him be "the man" is very similar.

Remember how divisive the locker-room was at the end of the Brian Billick era? In my opinion, it's getting that way again. Defense sick of the offense sabotaging them.

[edreedfromtheu]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342359833' post='1098333']
Simms didnt say anything any run first offense fan think about their QB...lol..


I will say this... Big Ben is the prefect example ... His stats will never be with the top guys BUT dude makes his attempts count racking up 7.9 yards a pass. Rodgers averaged 9.2 yards a pass... You gotta make each pass count... Flacco def has the arm to do that.
[/quote]

The arm... maybe. The vision, intellect, understanding, and awareness... I'm still waiting to see that.

[Cville-Raven]

Matthew stafford is a good example of this, he sat in the shotgun 40+ times a game with the 29th ranked rushing offense; so all he did was pass every down.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Run first = we win

Pass first = we lose


Just watch all the +60 passing game last year and you tell me. Seattle,Jets,Jaguars all pass oriented, all astoundingly torrid games.

[Cville-Raven]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1342361641' post='1098342']


The arm... maybe. The vision, intellect, understanding, and awareness... I'm still waiting to see that.
[/quote] there's no maybe with Flaccos arm: it's there

[Cville-Raven]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1342361813' post='1098344']
Run first = we win

Pass first = we lose


Just watch all the +60 passing game last year and you tell me. Seattle,Jets,Jaguars all pass oriented, all astoundingly torrid games.
[/quote] well Ray played terribly in the Jags game so you can't really fault us. He fumbled the ball like twice.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1342361813' post='1098344']
Run first = we win

Pass first = we lose


Just watch all the +60 passing game last year and you tell me. Seattle,Jets,Jaguars all pass oriented, all astoundingly torrid games.
[/quote]sorry what?

Games with more 45 attempts

St louis - Win
Arizona - Win
Pittsburgh @ Pitts - Win
Seattle - Loss

Games with more 35

St louis - Win
Arizona - Win
Pittsburgh @ Pitts - Win
Seattle - Loss
Jax - Loss

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1342361550' post='1098340']
Yeah, but will those "staggering numbers" be good numbers or bad numbers? I mean... how many 3 and outs do you people need to see before you see what the rest of us see?

Are those "great, not good throws" great for the Ravens, or the other team?

Sorry, but Simms is wrong. I'm thinking the reason the Ravens offense can't maintain a drive anymore is because they've gotten away from the run game and tried to force Flacco down our throats and "prove" he's the answer! It's so reminiscent of Kyle Boller the way they completely go away from their strength to try and prove something. Not saying Flacco is as bad as Kyle Boller, but the way they insist on letting him be "the man" is very similar.

Remember how divisive the locker-room was at the end of the Brian Billick era? In my opinion, it's getting that way again. Defense sick of the offense sabotaging them.
[/quote]

You kidding me? This is the best offense we've ever had. I can't even fathom how you can think the defense is sick of the offense sabotaging them. Seriously? Did you ever see a Pre-Flacco Ravens game? Do you enjoy watching Flacco lead game-winning drives against Pittsburgh all the time? Or does it disappoint you knowing that Flacco's proving you wrong?

Keep taking shots at Flacco all you want, but he comes up big in the clutch, usually for his receiver to let him down. (Clayton vs New England, Boldin vs Pitt, Housh vs Pitt and Evans vs New England, to name but a few). The few times we've run a hurry-up offense/spread attack he's been at his best.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1342361813' post='1098344']
Run first = we win

Pass first = we lose


Just watch all the +60 passing game last year and you tell me. Seattle,Jets,Jaguars all pass oriented, all astoundingly torrid games.
[/quote]
When we pass first it's because we're behind. All you're saying is we tend to lose games when we're behind.

Just look at the NE game as a great example. We go run, run, pass for our first three drives and they all result in lost yardage and punts. Then on our fourth possession we go pass first and drive down the field.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1342360066' post='1098335']
But then again... Those QB's didnt have a top tier D... You gotta account that.. Those QB's has to carry their teams because their D is less then average... I know most feel like Flacco can carry your teams (raven fans) but those guys do carry their team.
[/quote]
First, we're talking about Flacco's stats. When you have a good defense, your numbers always go down. So that's not an excuse, it's double counting. Joe puts up worse stats in part because of lack of receivers, a run first offense, and a good defense.

Second, we went 7-0 against teams with top-5 passing defenses, and 6-0 against teams with top-5 defenses overall last year. So if we only win because of defense, and our defense was similarly matched those games, what do you think it was that put us over the edge?

[big hits and ball hawks]

[quote name='Cville-Raven' timestamp='1342361773' post='1098343']
Matthew stafford is a good example of this, he sat in the shotgun 40+ times a game with the 29th ranked rushing offense; so all he did was pass every down.
[/quote]

Let's not forget, he gets to throw it to Megatron all day.

Anyway, Simms stated the obvious, but I appreciate it because no one else in the media brings up all the variables. They just look at numbers.

I believe Joe is going to be great this season.

[Ravenseconbeast]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1342367421' post='1098360']
[b]First, we're talking about Flacco's stats. When you have a good defense, your numbers always go down. So that's not an excuse,[/b] it's double counting. Joe puts up worse stats in part because of lack of receivers, a run first offense, and a good defense.

[b]Second, we went 7-0 against teams with top-5 passing defenses, and 6-0 against teams with top-5 defenses overall last year.[/b] So if we only win because of defense, and our defense was similarly matched those games, [b]what do you think it was that put us over the edge[/b]?
[/quote]

No it doesnt...look at steelers/texans/bears/packers game then look at their stats in past 2 years.

Look at jets/texans game. How do you account Flacco's game vs Jets/texans and give him credit on that?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1342369062' post='1098368']
No it doesnt...look at steelers/texans/bears/packers game then look at their stats in past 2 years.

Look at jets/texans game. How do you account Flacco's game vs Jets/texans and give him credit on that?
[/quote]ill say it again, when flacco attempted 45 or more passes, we are 3-1. so explain how when we pass we lose?

[TreTheRaven]

[i]I've seen some people here say they wish Flacco played more in a shotgun formation -- with 3 to 4 to 5 wide receiver sets.[/i] The more I watch Flacco play, the more I start to wish the same thing.

[codizzle]

[quote name='TreTheRaven' timestamp='1342369830' post='1098371']
[i]I've seen some people here say they wish Flacco played more in a shotgun formation -- with 3 to 4 to 5 wide receiver sets.[/i] The more I watch Flacco play, the more I start to wish the same thing.
[/quote]
Did u see him in that no huddle 3 WR drive in Pitt?? Just saying..

Boy is built for that stuff

[Purple Nurple]

Please, god. Let the season start already.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1342369062' post='1098368']
No it doesnt...look at steelers/texans/bears/packers game then look at their stats in past 2 years.

Look at jets/texans game. How do you account Flacco's game vs Jets/texans and give him credit on that?
[/quote]
Do you think it's a coincidence that the QBs with the best numbers all have defenses with the worst numbers? And that, in fact, the opposite is clearly true as well? It comes because:
a) teams with great QBs tend to put pieces around them on offense as a priority. Alternatively, teams with great offensive pieces have an easy time putting up good QB statistics.

b ) teams with bad defenses and good offenses get more points put on them, so the opposition is more likely to play a bend-but-don't-break type of defense that limits possessions, since the good offense is more prone to score if given the opportunity. This kind of defense makes it even easier for QBs to compile short passing stats that are flashy but not really that important in terms of wins and losses. Hence why guys like Stafford can throw 5000 yards and only win 10 games. Hence why elite QBs have had terrible games against solid defenses that don't need to lay back. Look at Rodgers vs NYG and Brady vs us in the playoffs. Or either side of the NFC championship game.

c) Having a bad defense means you need to score at a premium, leading to more spread formation which makes it easier to pass. Pretty easy to find someone open when you have 5 guys running routes at the same time, and at least one of them is either covered by a linebacker, strong safety, or the team's 5th cornerback.

Rivers and Roethlisberger have put up good numbers recently, and both have good defenses. However, neither had a good running game. And as Simms said, having a run-first offense can drastically hurt your stats. Joe's best passer rating came last year, not so coincidentally with our worst running game of Joe's career.

How do I give Joe credit for throwing 9.2 yards per attempt against a top 3 defense? Or do you mean the playoff Texans game where he had a 97.1 passer rating? I admit the Jets game was a clunker, but you have to treat the passing offense as a whole. Show me where Joe missed open targets. Show me where he had all day to throw and couldn't make the play.

[redrum52]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1342369062' post='1098368']


No it doesnt...look at steelers/texans/bears/packers game then look at their stats in past 2 years.

Look at jets/texans game. How do you account Flacco's game vs Jets/texans and give him credit on that?
[/quote]

I know I'm going to be seen as a Flacco apologist but the first Texans game he game through with some big passes when the line was being DESTROYED. I have no excuses for the Jets game, it was just terrible. The oline as a whole started getting dominated in the lost season which explained Rices drop and productivity and Flacco scrambling for dear life. Don't act like that wasn't the same defense that rattled Brady 2 years ago in the playoffs and held Eli the elite to a total of 9 completions. If the line plays as good as Byrne said they might be Flacco will be in for a big year.