Merged: Justin Tucker

[The Raven]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1343877177' post='1108441']
The vast majority of those misses were not 32 yarders to tie AFC championship games.

I'm not absolving him of the responsibility of making the kick, but it's not like a TO wouldn't have been quite beneficial. Now people might knock him for not calling a TO, but it would be a crime if one failed instance would be enough to conclude that he doesn't know to call one and stop the clock or doesn't know the rules or something ridiculous. You learn from these things, they don't necessarily become habits. If they do, [i]then[/i] there's a problem.
[/quote]

His career FG percentage is 76%. That's not too good. He has a reputation for missing clutch kicks, AFCCG or not.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1343875277' post='1108416']


I posted the numbers back on page 6.
[/quote]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1343863477' post='1108280']


per [url="http://ravens24x7.com/columns/Camp-Notes/CAMP-NOTES-Near-fisticuffs-in-Owings-Mills"]Tom Lombardi[/url], Ravens would save $2.2M in cap space with Cundiff’s departure. They would have to carry dead money of $600K in '12, $1.8M in '13 to offset the bonus paid to Cundiff in 2011.

hope that helps.
[/quote]

Thanks!

[JO_75]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1343877266' post='1108442']
His career FG percentage is 76%. That's not too good. He has a reputation for missing clutch kicks, AFCCG or not.
[/quote]

Yeah and I believe Tucker said that he is a very good clutch Kicker and that he has never missed a 4th quarter kick.

Honestly, all this stuff about him being a Rookie Kicker, who cares. If he is the best man for the job, then he'll earn it rookie kicker or veteran kicker. There was several kickers drafted which saw veterans being cut so that they can start, so it's not like we would be the only team this season to start a rookie kicker.

I just hope we don't let him go and keep Cundiff for the sole reason that someone else picks him up and Tucker ends up a great Kicker and down the road ends up kicking a game winning FG against us. Please Harbs, make the right decision and keep Tucker!

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1343877266' post='1108442']
His career FG percentage is 76%. That's not too good. He has a reputation for missing clutch kicks, AFCCG or not.
[/quote]

I can't think of any other high pressure misses off the top of my head, and my stupid research isn't helping. Point is, the only way to honestly conclude that he's unclutch is to identify more big misses than just that one. Career percentage doesn't directly correlate with high pressure kicks because not all of them were high pressure.

[The Raven]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1343877736' post='1108447']
I can't think of any other high pressure misses off the top of my head, and my stupid research isn't helping. Point is, the only way to honestly conclude that he's unclutch is to identify more big misses than just that one. Career percentage doesn't directly correlate with high pressure kicks because not all of them were high pressure.
[/quote]

However, it would indicate that he misses a pretty substantial amount of field goals regardless of the amount of pressure. He misses almost 1 FG in every 4 attempts. That is awful!

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1343875111' post='1108411']
I feel as though you are making an argument on both sides. What you are saying is 100% correct, but you are also supporting my viewpoint as well.

The kicking position is about confidence as you said, but it's not just the confidence the play has, it's also the confidence the coaches have in that player. When the Ravens were in position to tie the AFC Championship game late in the 4th quarter with a 50+ FGA, the coaches didn't have much confidence in Billy, and listening to his post game comments, he was ok with that.

Other then that guy going out and nailing 50+ yard FGAs in big situations, who does he earn that confidences of his coaches and teammates back? I can' say for certain, but what if Cundiff is mentally shaken from that miss and he's showing it now at camp? What if he misses a big kick on MNF or against NE a couple weeks later?

You don't think their will be the same type of wait and see approach to Billy when he steps up to attempt a kick this year? Because even if he makes 10 striaght, you'll always have that notion of.......yeah that's good, but lets see what happens with the game on the line.

You are right, with Tucker you just don't know, but the thing is you'll never know until you know. It sounds strange but it's true. If/when Tucker is announced as the Kicker, the Ravens have to have 100% confidence that he'll be able to make kicks in any situation. They won't know that, because they haven't seen it, but they will have seen enough from him in camp and preseason to feel that his ready.
[/quote]
You make a good point about the coaches maybe not having confidence in Billy's ability to hit 50+ kicks. I think that is an issue. However, I still think experience is a factor here. If it wasnt than why is there even a debate? Why were no veteran kickers interested in coming to camp? I think the FO is very confident in Billy and it will take an amazing preseason by Tucker to go along with a shaky preseason from Billy to unseat him.

As to someone else's point about why Billy got a contract. It wasnt just because he was booming touchbacks, he also hit 89.7% of his kicks as well which is a very high percentage.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='blitzking33' timestamp='1343875298' post='1108417']
This is amazing.
I don't understand why people take his experience as a factor in competition to Billy. Billy has bounced around on many teams, getting cut, and there was a point where he was out of football. People tend to forget how he got his fat contract in the first place, he nailed touchbacks not go 100% on FGs. There's a big difference. Like you said, kicker is hit or miss position. You got it or you don't. You don't have an advantage because you know more plays, or you're bigger than the other person. Kickers rely on pure skills. Kicking power and accuracy. If you don't have that, then your on your way out of the league. That's where Cundiff was before we scooped him up.
[/quote]

I like Billy, but i've said before that he came to the Ravens at just the right time. In the 2009 season the Ravens had allowed Stover to walk and we were searching for the answers to the ? left at that position. Graham Gano nor Huashcka were the answer, and after the huge miss by Haushcka at the end of the Vikings game, Billy came in and added some consistency to the kicking position.

However, because Huashcka was so bad, we somehow missed the fact that Cundiff missed a big 30 yard FGA late in the 3rd quarter against the Colts, when we lost by 2. We didn't fault Cundiff for going 0 for 2 against the Raiders in a Win and In game to make the players.

Then he wowed us all with this touchbacks that year and everyone tought we'd found our guy. He only missed 3 kicks that year and the Ravens thought Cundiff had finally put it all together. Now we're right back in the same situation we were in 09' and Cundiff is back to trying to prove he can get the job done for yet another team.

I think Billy is a pretty good kicker, and I was very happy with him in 2010, however, I'm not sure that 2010 wasn't just a aberration for him and now he'll be back to the true Billy.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1343875575' post='1108426']
Here's the thing with Billy. The miss against NE by itself is not a large enough sample size to be able to conclude that he can't make high pressure kicks or isn't clutch or is a choker, etc.......not to mention, regardless of who's fault it was that he was rushed, he was rushed.
[/quote]

The problem is, it's not just the NE miss. That's just the most recognizable play. I personally think the fact that Harbs was unwilling to trust Cundiff from 50+ with basically our Super Bowl hopes in the balance, was more daming. The kicking position is all about confidence, and I didn't sense that anyone was overly confident about the kicking game last year.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1343878050' post='1108449']
You make a good point about the coaches maybe not having confidence in Billy's ability to hit 50+ kicks. I think that is an issue. However, I still think experience is a factor here. If it wasnt than why is there even a debate? Why were no veteran kickers interested in coming to camp? I think the FO is very confident in Billy and it will take an amazing preseason by Tucker to go along with a shaky preseason from Billy to unseat him.

As to someone else's point about why Billy got a contract. It wasnt just because he was booming touchbacks, he also hit 89.7% of his kicks as well which is a very high percentage.
[/quote]

Oh no doubt Tucker will definitely have to out-kick Cundiff. I think everyone will agree with that. My point is, if that does indeed happen, the coaches won't use Tucker's rookie status against him.

Being a vet matters, because coaches will give you the benefit of the doubt, if the competition is dead even at the end. However it also works against you when you're in Billy's situation. The pressure is on for Billy to prove he's over the miss and he's the kicker the coaches believed him to be. If he allows a rookie to come into camp and out-kick him, that speak volumes imo.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1343879034' post='1108456']
The problem is, it's not just the NE miss. That's just the most recognizable play. I personally think the fact that Harbs was unwilling to trust Cundiff from 50+ with basically our Super Bowl hopes in the balance, was more daming. The kicking position is all about confidence, and I didn't sense that anyone was overly confident about the kicking game last year.
[/quote]

That's where I'm more concerned as well. Billys history suggests that accuracy and range are bigger issues for him than clutch vs. unclutch.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1343879549' post='1108462']
That's where I'm more concerned as well. Billys history suggests that accuracy and range are bigger issues for him than clutch vs. unclutch.
[/quote]

Yea Billy has made some big kicks for us, and the fact that he's perfect in the playoffs, before last season and is like 95% in the 4th quarter says lot about him being clutch. He's made overtime kicks for us before, he's kicked game winning kicks before.

It's just his consistency and long range kicking that's the issue. Unfortunately for Billy, JT seems to be really strong in those areas early on. So we'll see

[FerrariFan87]

I like Tucker's confidence... the NFL doesn't seem too big for him, or his leg.

[sameoldbull]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1343875575' post='1108426']
Here's the thing with Billy. The miss against NE by itself is not a large enough sample size to be able to conclude that he can't make high pressure kicks or isn't clutch or is a choker, etc.......not to mention, regardless of who's fault it was that he was rushed, he was rushed.
[/quote]

But even if he were or felt rushed he had the chance to call a time out. He did not and the rest is history. I would have thought such an experienced kicker would have kept his cool and could tell if he felt rushed/couldn't make the kick and called the time out. Experience isn't enough as some people already has said. A big leg with accuracy is in my humble opinion more important.

And of course the kick in the AFCCG isn't the only reason why we are looking at a new kicker. All season long Cundiff had a kinda up and down year. Let's see who has the strongest leg and then decide whom to keep.

Plus then there is the whole cap issue. Does anyone know what would happen if we release him?

[TheMadRaven]

Team Tucker here.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1343880187' post='1108467']
I like Tucker's confidence... the NFL doesn't seem too big for him, or his leg.
[/quote]

This is exactly why I think him being a rookie is a non-issue. As a kicker you have one job, Kick. it's not like position players where you have to know your position, know the defense, know your responsibility, all while trying to beat the opponent in front of you.

Kicking is different. It's all about confidence and consistency. It basically comes down to you vs yourself. Yes sometimes the elements play a role, the different fields and stadiums play a role, but ultimately it's you vs yourself. If you are battling yourself to think about your mechanic, think about your form, keep your head on the ball, think about your last miss you had and all of that you're probably missing a lot of kicks.

However if you are confidence without your form, your process and yourself, then all of that other stuff falls into place. As a rookie you'll take lumps, because each stadium is different and you haven't kicked in any of them. But If Tucker were to win the job, i'd have 100% confidence in him over the course of the season.

[20ravens52]

tucker tucker TUCKER!! baby!

[JO_75]

Just saw this on Rotoworld, Tucker is putting "a little distance" between himself and Billy Cundiff.

[quote][color=#0000FF][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Verdana][size=3]Tucker, an undrafted free agent out of Texas, has made 35-of-37 attempts through Wednesday's practice. Cundiff, who shanked a game-tying kick in last year's AFC Championship game, has gone 29-for-35. [/size][/font][/color]

[color=#0000FF][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Verdana][size=3]"I think you go by your instincts a little bit, but we know the stats inside out, and you certainly factor all that in," said coach John Harbaugh.[/size][/font][/color][/quote]

[url="http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8241/justin-tucker"]http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8241/justin-tucker[/url]

[1/28/01]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1343921426' post='1108607']
Just saw this on Rotoworld, Tucker is putting "a little distance" between himself and Billy Cundiff.



[url="http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8241/justin-tucker"]http://rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8241/justin-tucker[/url]
[/quote]
Sounds like Harbs way of saying "Im going with Billy still...". Hope not, though!

[Crabcakes&Football]

No hate for Billy, but I'm ready to move on. He's a career journeyman with one good season. Just have no faith in the guy anymore as our starting kicker. Tucker has shown a big leg and a lot of promise not only now but in the future. Going with Billy over him would be like saying 'Better the devil we know..'. I'm actually more comfortable with the devil I don't.

[BALTIMOREFLACCO]

Tucker is going to get a job somewhere if it's not here. He was great at UT. Heard nothing but good things so far. Keeping my fingers crossed

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1343878050' post='1108449']
You make a good point about the coaches maybe not having confidence in Billy's ability to hit 50+ kicks. I think that is an issue. However, I still think experience is a factor here. If it wasnt than why is there even a debate? Why were no veteran kickers interested in coming to camp? I think the FO is very confident in Billy and it will take an amazing preseason by Tucker to go along with a shaky preseason from Billy to unseat him.

As to someone else's point about why Billy got a contract. [b]It wasnt just because he was booming touchbacks, he also hit 89.7% of his kicks as well which is a very high percentage.[/b]
[/quote]

He also has a career 76.7% completion rate and a career worst of 63.2% (over a full season).

Pretty much everything in Cundiff's past suggests that his terrific 2010 season was a fluke and that he is, quite simply, not that good.

I want Tucker because I'd rather have someone who hasn't tried, than someone who has tried and failed.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1343932582' post='1108839']
He also has a career 76.7% completion rate and a career worst of 63.2% (over a full season).

Pretty much everything in Cundiff's past suggests that his terrific 2010 season was a fluke and that he is, quite simply, not that good.

I want Tucker because I'd rather have someone who hasn't tried, than someone who has tried and failed.
[/quote]

A reasonable argument to be sure, and if Tucker continues to do better than Cundiff in training camp that's obviously who the fans would want. There is the problem of Harbaugh and his protection of "his guys" though. Even if Tucker was hitting everything and Cundiff was sitting below 50% I bet Harbs would still take Cundiff over Tucker.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1343932779' post='1108843']
A reasonable argument to be sure, and if Tucker continues to do better than Cundiff in training camp that's obviously who the fans would want. There is the problem of Harbaugh and his protection of "his guys" though. Even if Tucker was hitting everything and Cundiff was sitting below 50% I bet Harbs would still take Cundiff over Tucker.
[/quote]
If Cundiff is that bad, I dont see how he would be kept over Tucker. I do think there will have to be a significant difference though.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1343932779' post='1108843']
A reasonable argument to be sure, and if Tucker continues to do better than Cundiff in training camp that's obviously who the fans would want. There is the problem of Harbaugh and his protection of "his guys" though. Even if Tucker was hitting everything and Cundiff was sitting below 50% I bet Harbs would still take Cundiff over Tucker.
[/quote]

I don't get the whole "his guys" thing. At this point, the team is so young that everyone expect for Ray, Ed and Yanda are his guys because he either drafted them or brought them in as FAs/trade.

Harbs is one of those coaches that truly allow his players to compete and the better guy will play. McClain vs Ellerbe, the better guy won and played. Pollard vs Zibby, the better guy won and played, Cary Williams vs CBs, Cary outplayed everyone in camp/preseason so he started. Danny Gorrer outplayed Chris Carr, so he played more towards the end of the season. Now Carr isn't here.

Harbs isn't protecting Cundiff imo, he's just not letting everyone run away with the notion that Tucker is ahead right now. But like he said, judging the Kickers is simple. When they make it, they're doing good, when they miss they aren't. Tucker has been doing good more then Cundiff. If that continues throughout PS, Tucker is the man.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1343934038' post='1108862']
I don't get the whole "his guys" thing. At this point, the team is so young that everyone expect for Ray, Ed and Yanda are his guys because he either drafted them or brought them in as FAs/trade.
[/quote]

If he doesn't have his guys, which he most certainly does, explain to me how someone like David Reed who single-handedly lost us a game is still on the team.

[The Raven]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1343936023' post='1108881']
If he doesn't have his guys, which he most certainly does, explain to me how someone like David Reed who single-handedly lost us a game is still on the team.
[/quote]

It's this thing called potential. A lot of people can't see it because they can't see past his game against Seattle. But, he averages 30 yards a kick return and has high potential. Reed is talented, and he can get even better. You simply don't cut a guy for costing the team [b]ONE[/b] loss. That's asinine, stupid, and just not a great decision.

He probably will end up being cut due to a crowded WR position. But, the potential is there, and that's why he's still here.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1343936023' post='1108881']
If he doesn't have his guys, which he most certainly does, explain to me how someone like David Reed who single-handedly lost us a game is still on the team.
[/quote]

Because David Reed is a talent young player entering his 3rd NFL season. The guy is averaging 29.7 kick return yards, that's tops in the NFL over the last 2 seasons. Yes he had a tough game against the Seahawks, but he bounced back and actually show have scored a TD against the Browns but he got hurt.

All players make mistakes, especially young ones, but that's not reason to case off talent. Fans are the only ones that wanna give up on talent. I don't get it, we cry all time time about letting young guys play and take they're lumps, then when a young guy like Reed has some rough patches you want to cast him aside.

How does that make sense? The process of developing means guys will struggle at times, have a bad game or two. Where would Torrey Smith be if Flacco didn't go back to him after he dropped the potential game winning TD against the Steelers? Fans would have been all over his case, just like they were in preseason when he was labeled a bust.

The same thing is happening with Oher, the guy got one opportunity to play LT for a full season as a 2nd year player. He had his bad moments but the good far outweighed the bad. All fans wanna harp on is the bad in most cases. Coaches know what it means to allow a guy to develop, but fans just want young guys to be Studs or Pro Bowl caliber from day one.

Hell it's even people who wanted to get rid of Ed Dickson after his 1st year starting last season because he had some key drops. It's crazy. But coaches stay the course because they know stardom doesn't happen overnight. Young players need time to develop.

You and others act as if David Reed has been here 4 or 5 years, he's a 3rd year players who struggled picking up the playbook early, but that doesn't take away his talent and potential. You say he single-handedly lost us a game, and is still on the team

Well Flacco threw 4 picks against the Bengals week 2 of the 2010 season, you wanna get rid of him too?

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1343936435' post='1108889']
It's this thing called potential. A lot of people can't see it because they can't see past his game against Seattle. But, he averages 30 yards a kick return and has high potential. Reed is talented, and he can get even better. You simply don't cut a guy for costing the team [b]ONE[/b] loss. That's asinine, stupid, and just not a great decision.

He probably will end up being cut due to a crowded WR position. But, the potential is there, and that's why he's still here.
[/quote]

That's why we as fans read updates, and watch games, while coaches give the updates and decide with players should play the game. Regardless of what people want to say about Reed, there isn't a single guy on this team who has proven to be as dynamic a return as he is. Nobody, yet fans expect Ozzie and Harbs to ship the guy out because he had a bad game.

Then when the Steelers or Pats pick the guy up and he bites us in the butt, the same fans will scream how stupid Ozzie and Harbs are for letting a talented young player leave.

I agree with you that Reed will find it hard to make the 53 with the young talent at WR, but people have to understand that Reed is also one of those young talented guys, the coaches aren't given up on him just yet.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Clutch Ravens' timestamp='1343932582' post='1108839']
He also has a career 76.7% completion rate and a career worst of 63.2% (over a full season).

Pretty much everything in Cundiff's past suggests that his terrific 2010 season was a fluke and that he is, quite simply, not that good.

I want Tucker because I'd rather have someone who hasn't tried, than someone who has tried and failed.
[/quote]
It wasn't a fluke. Last year the Ravens had a coach come in part time who worked with David Akers to help Billy on his kicking. There was a hulu video about it, but I think hulu abandoned NFL videos and now I can't find it or remember his name. But you can tell he was definitely correcting Billy's technique. Last year he must've forgotten some of that. He was terrible on away games, but we were also losing in our away games, so there was more pressure. Coaching could've helped Billy perform better under pressure this year but that hasn't happened. When you look at most of Billy's misses, they come when the game is close. That said, if Billy is going to get back to 2010 form he's going to need outside help that we might not have anymore.

[Ravensfan23]

So Justin Tucker didn't kick today because he had the day off(rest). Billy Cundiff had his opportunity to gain some ground on the young guy. Cundiff stayed true to what he's shown so far in camp. 4-for-5, missing a long FGA wide Right.

By my count that's now, 5 consective days where Billy has missed a FGA. I know that nobody is prefect, but 5 straight days with at least 1 miss, while Tucker has been prefect in 4 of the 6 days he's been allowed to kick.