Merged: Justin Tucker

[gabefergy]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1343869080' post='1108334']




I would say based off those numbers in practice as of now, I actually would feel comfortable with Justin Tucker as our Kicker if it came down to Game Winning situations in the 4th quarter. I mean he has missed 2 compared to 7 missed for Cundiff. Right now I think Tucker is showing that while he is a rookie Kicker, that we can trust him to make that Kick when it counts, but hopefully we have enough offensive power to where we only need Tucker for Extra Points.
[/quote]
Big difference between TC kicks and a 4th quarter kick against the Steelers with the division title on it the line. Its easy for us to say we trust a rookie kicker. We dont bear any responsibility if the decision goes awry.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1343869080' post='1108334']
I would say based off those numbers in practice as of now, I actually would feel comfortable with Justin Tucker as our Kicker if it came down to Game Winning situations in the 4th quarter. I mean he has missed 2 compared to 7 missed for Cundiff. Right now I think Tucker is showing that while he is a rookie Kicker, that we can trust him to make that Kick when it counts, but hopefully we have enough offensive power to where we only need Tucker for Extra Points.
[/quote]

Yea whats even more impressive about Tucker's numbers is that, both of his missed were from 50+ which is a difficult kick for any kicker. On one of his kicks he had a misstep with led to the miss. So he's definitely showing a lot of consistency.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1343868554' post='1108331']
There is a reason...Tucker is a rookie. Very rarely do teams with Championship aspirations go into the regular season with a kicker that has never made an NFL kick. If he folds under the pressure of the NFL kicking game Harbs will be crucified. I'm not saying that Cundiff should win necessarily, but his experience gives him an edge. We all remember his misses of course, but he has also made a lot of big kicks.
[/quote]

There has been a long list of teams who entered the playoffs with a rookie kicker and I don't think Harbs cares one bit about what people outside of the Ravens Organization thinks about his decision making.

Either way Harbs will be curcifed if one of these Kickers buckle. If Cundiff folds under pressure again, it'll be asked why didn't Harbs learn his lesson from before.

So it's a situation where the Ravens will take the guy they feel gives them the best option at Kicker. Right now that's Tucker, but that could change with a miss or 2 in the preseason game.

[blitzking33]

I feel that if we keep Cundiff and let Tucker go somewhere else, we will regret it.

[blitzking33]

Most of you guys keep talking about Tucker being a rookie. That has nothing to do with the competition at kicker! Please stop referring to him being a rookie because if he is more accurate than Cundiff, he's the better kicker, period! His experience is irrelevant at his position. Just go out, make the kick that you've been making your whole high school and college career and you'll be fine.

On a side note, I saw somewhere that Tucker hit a 60 yarder the other day and Cundiff's been wide left and right from 30's and 40's.

Check out his 70 yarder:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28wQOvEu2PU

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='blitzking33' timestamp='1343870881' post='1108368']
Most of you guys keep talking about Tucker being a rookie. That has nothing to do with the competition at kicker! Please stop referring to him being a rookie because if he is more accurate than Cundiff, he's the better kicker, period! His experience is irrelevant at his position. Just go out, make the kick that you've been making your whole high school and college career and you'll be fine.

On a side note, I saw somewhere that Tucker hit a 60 yarder the other day and Cundiff's been wide left and right from 30's and 40's.

Check out his 70 yarder:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28wQOvEu2PU[/media]
[/quote]

Aaron Wilson tweeted that both Tucker and Cundiff hit from roughly 60 yards yesterday in practice. As for Tucker being a rookie, if the Ravens were willing to start a rookie QB, i doubt they'll use Tucker's rookie status against him.

[Gordo52]

I like Tucker alot, but I would feel more comfortable entering the season with both kickers. Let Cundiff play until he messes up. Rookie kickers rarely do good their rookie season. I know it's unlikely to happen but I can't trust a rookie kicker, the same way I can't trust Cundiff with the game on the line.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1343872101' post='1108379']


Aaron Wilson tweeted that both Tucker and Cundiff hit from roughly 60 yards yesterday in practice. As for Tucker being a rookie, if the Ravens were willing to start a rookie QB, i doubt they'll use Tucker's rookie status against him.
[/quote]:
Of course they will use his rookie status against him. He has zero experience and that could end up being a huge issue. Look at dallas last year. They carried a rookie kicker and he missed a huge kick that may have kept them out of the playoffs. Its a risk despite how amazing he may look in practice.

[Dubs]

I absolutely love what I have seen/heard of Tucker but what are our options of not allowing him to hit the open market, but not be our starter. I ask this because I have a hard time seeing us cut Cundiff after the contract and the inexperience of Tucker. If I had a choice like many of you I would take Tucker, but I think our coaching staff and FO may need alot more convincing to make such a decision. This is all very early though and preseason will be a big time to test them both, hopefully we kick alot of FGs and are in position to test them both on several occassions. This may be one of the few times I will be happy to see our offense to falter once it gets into the opponents side of the field.

However, if he is a practice squadder I know other teams can go after him, is there any other options of keeping him in Baltimore while not having him as our starting kicker as he seems to have everything we would want in a long term kicker. Or am I wrong with how the practice squad operates?

[rmw10]

[quote name='Dubs' timestamp='1343872579' post='1108386']
I absolutely love what I have seen/heard of Tucker but what are our options of not allowing him to hit the open market, but not be our starter. I ask this because I have a hard time seeing us cut Cundiff after the contract and the inexperience of Tucker. If I had a choice like many of you I would take Tucker, but I think our coaching staff and FO may need alot more convincing to make such a decision. This is all very early though and preseason will be a big time to test them both, hopefully we kick alot of FGs and are in position to test them both on several occassions. This may be one of the few times I will be happy to see our offense to falter once it gets into the opponents side of the field.

However, if he is a practice squadder I know other teams can go after him, is there any other options of keeping him in Baltimore while not having him as our starting kicker as he seems to have everything we would want in a long term kicker. Or am I wrong with how the practice squad operates?
[/quote]

Basically, he needs to be on the roster or IR to guarantee he'll be a Raven. He likely won't pass through waivers, as the interest in him is supposedly high around the league if we choose Cundiff. Even if he was to pass through waivers and end up on our practice squad, any team could pick him up at any moment.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1343872447' post='1108382']
:
Of course they will use his rookie status against him. He has zero experience and that could end up being a huge issue. Look at dallas last year. They carried a rookie kicker and he missed a huge kick that may have kept them out of the playoffs. Its a risk despite how amazing he may look in practice.
[/quote]

And carrying so many young WRs isn't a risk, having inexperienced backup RBs isn't a risk, possibility starting KO at RT isn't a risk, having Upshaw start as a rookie isn't a risk?

There is always risk, but how great is the reward? That's the question that has to be asked. Because if Tucker proves he can be a reliable Kicker during the preseason, the Ravens won't get a chance to have him kick for them once he has more experience because some other team will snatch him up.

This isn't a position where you can stash a young guy and hope he develops for you, it's a make or miss position. Either you have a guy you feel can make 80-90% of his kicks or you don't.

If Tucker is the Kicker, he'll take his fair share of lumps, but you are willing to except that from a rookie because he know he's growing. Now of course you won't tolerate him missing a lot of kicks but a couple here or their is understandable. Nobody is prefect.

[Ravensfan23]

Hey gabefergy, here's what i posted a few weeks ago. It applies to the whole rookie kicker thing.

It's not often you see rookie kickers even getting a chance in the NFL, because the age isn't that important at the Kicker position. So no you're not gonna see many rookie kickers on Playoff teams.

However I do know that in 2006, the Patriots drafted a kicker in the 4th round and he made their team. He connected on like 76% of his kicks and that team went all the way to the AFC Championship game.

His name is Stephen Gostkowsi and he was prefect in the playoffs his rookie season. Somthing like 8 for 8 including a late 4th quarter FG that game the Pats the lead over the Colts.

In 2000 The Oakland Raiders made the playoffs with Sebastian Janikowski as a rookie kicker. He made 3 of 4 FGs in the postseason that year, including one against the Ravens.

Don Bailey was a rookie last season and the Cowbody came within a game of the Playoffs. He connected on 86.5% of his kicks last season. I don't think anyone would fault him for the Cowbodys missing the playoffs.

In 2008 the Dolphins went to the Playoffs with a rookie kick named Dan Carpenter. He made 84% in the regular season and hit his only attempt against the Ravens in the playoffs.

In 2005 the Bears when to the playoffs with Robbie Gould as thier kicker. He connected on 77%.

In 2007 the Packers made it to the NFC Championship game with Mason Crosby as a rookie. 79% regular season 100% playoffs.

In 2007 the Cowboys made the playoffs with a pro bowl rookie Kicker named Nick Folk.

So why it doesn't happen often it does happen and based off of these cases, it's usually successful. As long as it's a true competition, Justin Tucker has every chance to be the 2012-13 Kicker for the Baltimore Ravens.

I'm sure Harbs and the coaches will look at these stats and situations when determining if they wanna go with a rookie kicker.

[Crabcakes&Football]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1343872447' post='1108382']
:
Of course they will use his rookie status against him. He has zero experience and that could end up being a huge issue. Look at dallas last year. They carried a rookie kicker and he missed a huge kick that may have kept them out of the playoffs. Its a risk despite how amazing he may look in practice.
[/quote]

Sounds very familiar...

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1343873009' post='1108391']
And carrying so many young WRs isn't a risk, having inexperienced backup RBs isn't a risk, possibility starting KO at RT isn't a risk, having Upshaw start as a rookie isn't a risk?

There is always risk, but how great is the reward? That's the question that has to be asked. Because if Tucker proves he can be a reliable Kicker during the preseason, the Ravens won't get a chance to have him kick for them once he has more experience because some other team will snatch him up.

This isn't a position where you can stash a young guy and hope he develops for you, it's a make or miss position. Either you have a guy you feel can make 80-90% of his kicks or you don't.

If Tucker is the Kicker, he'll take his fair share of lumps, but you are willing to except that from a rookie because he know he's growing. Now of course you won't tolerate him missing a lot of kicks but a couple here or their is understandable. Nobody is prefect.
[/quote]

To your first point, position players are completely different situations and are not really comparable to the kicking game. There are a lot more ways to critique and develop a rookie WR or OLineman than there is with a kicker so that really doesnt apply.

There is always going to be risk when making decisions in the NFL, and the wise thing the majority of the time is to go with whatever minimizes that risk. Kicking is a really tough position to evaluate because it is different than every other aspect of the game. You can look at stats and percentages and what-not, but in the end none of that may even apply. We have seen kickers have great seasons and they completely fall apart the next year. There really is not much rhyme or reason to it. A lot of it has to do with confidence and it seems right now young Mr. Tucker is brimming with it.

You said yourself that Tucker will likely have his issues in a rookie season. Well, is that something that the coaches really want to have looming over the season. Every single time he comes on to make a kick, there will be some doubt because it is a new situation for him. That is the decision the coaches have to make. Go with the player who has been there before and had both success and failures or go with the new guy who has felt neither. What happens if we go with Tucker and he misses a big kick in a pivotal game and it wrecks his confidence? He has never had to deal with that before and it could potentially ruin him.

[1/28/01]

May have been answered already (and normally Im the type to look this up myself), but what sort of cap hit would we incur if we cut Billy?

[FerrariFan87]

Usually it's the prorated portion of whatever bonus money he's still due... so, not sure lol.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1343874749' post='1108404']
Usually it's the prorated portion of whatever bonus money he's still due... so, not sure lol.
[/quote]
Thanks for giving me absolutely zero additional insight into my question (you know Im just messin')

[FerrariFan87]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1343874830' post='1108405']
Thanks for giving me absolutely zero additional insight into my question (you know Im just messin')
[/quote]

Always happy to oblige

Tweet @RavensInsider... he could help ya!

http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/42331/ravens-cant-fully-commit-to-cundiff

^ Says we only gave Billy a $3M bonus, so if we cut him it won't hurt us much at all.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1343873963' post='1108397']
To your first point, position players are completely different situations and are not really comparable to the kicking game. There are a lot more ways to critique and develop a rookie WR or OLineman than there is with a kicker so that really doesnt apply.

There is always going to be risk when making decisions in the NFL, and the wise thing the majority of the time is to go with whatever minimizes that risk. Kicking is a really tough position to evaluate because it is different than every other aspect of the game. You can look at stats and percentages and what-not, but in the end none of that may even apply. We have seen kickers have great seasons and they completely fall apart the next year. There really is not much rhyme or reason to it. A lot of it has to do with confidence and it seems right now young Mr. Tucker is brimming with it.

You said yourself that Tucker will likely have his issues in a rookie season. Well, is that something that the coaches really want to have looming over the season. Every single time he comes on to make a kick, there will be some doubt because it is a new situation for him. That is the decision the coaches have to make. Go with the player who has been there before and had both success and failures or go with the new guy who has felt neither. What happens if we go with Tucker and he misses a big kick in a pivotal game and it wrecks his confidence? He has never had to deal with that before and it could potentially ruin him.
[/quote]

I feel as though you are making an argument on both sides. What you are saying is 100% correct, but you are also supporting my viewpoint as well.

The kicking position is about confidence as you said, but it's not just the confidence the play has, it's also the confidence the coaches have in that player. When the Ravens were in position to tie the AFC Championship game late in the 4th quarter with a 50+ FGA, the coaches didn't have much confidence in Billy, and listening to his post game comments, he was ok with that.

Other then that guy going out and nailing 50+ yard FGAs in big situations, who does he earn that confidences of his coaches and teammates back? I can' say for certain, but what if Cundiff is mentally shaken from that miss and he's showing it now at camp? What if he misses a big kick on MNF or against NE a couple weeks later?

You don't think their will be the same type of wait and see approach to Billy when he steps up to attempt a kick this year? Because even if he makes 10 striaght, you'll always have that notion of.......yeah that's good, but lets see what happens with the game on the line.

You are right, with Tucker you just don't know, but the thing is you'll never know until you know. It sounds strange but it's true. If/when Tucker is announced as the Kicker, the Ravens have to have 100% confidence that he'll be able to make kicks in any situation. They won't know that, because they haven't seen it, but they will have seen enough from him in camp and preseason to feel that his ready.

[hawkprey]

He hits everything, he's got a big foot. What more do you want from the kid? Less money and more accuracy or more money and less accuracy? Sign him up! Billy's been missing chip shots since his first game against Indy.

[Ravensfan23]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1343874830' post='1108405']
Thanks for giving me absolutely zero additional insight into my question (you know Im just messin')
[/quote]

I posted the numbers back on page 6.

[blitzking33]

[quote name='Ravensfan23' timestamp='1343873009' post='1108391']
And carrying so many young WRs isn't a risk, having inexperienced backup RBs isn't a risk, possibility starting KO at RT isn't a risk, having Upshaw start as a rookie isn't a risk?

There is always risk, but how great is the reward? That's the question that has to be asked. Because if Tucker proves he can be a reliable Kicker during the preseason, the Ravens won't get a chance to have him kick for them once he has more experience because some other team will snatch him up.

This isn't a position where you can stash a young guy and hope he develops for you, it's a make or miss position. Either you have a guy you feel can make 80-90% of his kicks or you don't.

If Tucker is the Kicker, he'll take his fair share of lumps, but you are willing to except that from a rookie because he know he's growing. Now of course you won't tolerate him missing a lot of kicks but a couple here or their is understandable. Nobody is prefect.
[/quote]

This is amazing.
I don't understand why people take his experience as a factor in competition to Billy. Billy has bounced around on many teams, getting cut, and there was a point where he was out of football. People tend to forget how he got his fat contract in the first place, he nailed touchbacks not go 100% on FGs. There's a big difference. Like you said, kicker is hit or miss position. You got it or you don't. You don't have an advantage because you know more plays, or you're bigger than the other person. Kickers rely on pure skills. Kicking power and accuracy. If you don't have that, then your on your way out of the league. That's where Cundiff was before we scooped him up.

[blitzking33]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1343875156' post='1108413']
He hits everything, he's got a big foot. What more do you want from the kid? Less money and more accuracy or more money and less accuracy? Sign him up! Billy's been missing chip shots since his first game against Indy.
[/quote]
I was thinking the same. Boy he was terrible against IND.

[RavensAllTheWay]

Here's the thing with Billy. The miss against NE by itself is not a large enough sample size to be able to conclude that he can't make high pressure kicks or isn't clutch or is a choker, etc.......not to mention, regardless of who's fault it was that he was rushed, he was rushed.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='blitzking33' timestamp='1343875425' post='1108422']
I was thinking the same. Boy he was terrible against IND.
[/quote]

Hope you're joking. He was 5/6 that day and scored all our points.

[blitzking33]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1343875575' post='1108426']
Here's the thing with Billy. The miss against NE by itself is not a large enough sample size to be able to conclude that he can't make high pressure kicks or isn't clutch or is a choker, etc.......not to mention, regardless of who's fault it was that he was rushed, he was rushed.
[/quote]

He doesn't know how to make a letter T with his hands to stop the clock?

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='blitzking33' timestamp='1343875811' post='1108431']
He doesn't know how to make a letter T with his hands to stop the clock?
[/quote]

Still, only one time did this happen to him. I also acknowledged in an earlier post that he should've called a TO.

[The Raven]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1343875575' post='1108426']
Here's the thing with Billy. The miss against NE by itself is not a large enough sample size to be able to conclude that he can't make high pressure kicks or isn't clutch or is a choker, etc.......not to mention, regardless of who's fault it was that he was rushed, he was rushed.
[/quote]

However, his career stats as well as his reputation would indicate that he is a very inconsistent kicker known for missing high pressure kicks.

And it was a 32 yarder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He should have made it, end of story. How anyone can defend him for missing that blows my mind.

[ravensfan2424]

I'm all for keeping Justin Tucker, but I'm not exactly sure how we rid ourselves of Billy. He has a large contract and we can't cut him because we'd have a huge cap penalty correct?

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1343876407' post='1108435']
However, his career stats as well as his reputation would indicate that he is a very inconsistent kicker known for missing high pressure kicks.

And it was a 32 yarder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He should have made it, end of story. How anyone can defend him for missing that blows my mind.
[/quote]

The vast majority of those misses were not 32 yarders to tie AFC championship games.

I'm not absolving him of the responsibility of making the kick, but it's not like a TO wouldn't have been quite beneficial. Now people might knock him for not calling a TO, but it would be a crime if one failed instance would be enough to conclude that he doesn't know to call one and stop the clock or doesn't know the rules or something ridiculous. You learn from these things, they don't necessarily become habits. If they do, [i]then[/i] there's a problem.