ESPN Fantasy Football 2012

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345344776' post='1123566']
Didnt really have a choice. You had to lose value when trading for the most important position in fantasy. Thats why you draft a lot of rb's kiddies. But tbh you did get a pretty good deal. I could have left you to die and I showed you why Hillis has some very good upside.
[/quote]

I wouldn't label it as a pretty good deal. While there is upside in Hillis taking over down the stretch, should Charles either struggle to return to form or find himself on IR once again, Hillis still faces multiple questions coming into the season. Not only is he entrenched in a battle for touches against a very talented back, but he must also prove that he's back to 100% both mentally and physically. Granted that the reports about him have been positive thus far, his upside is still dependent on another player. Colston, on the other hand, will likely see an increased amount of targets with Robert Meachem out of the picture. And while they did draft WR Nick Toon, he's been held out due to foot concerns that have plagued him since his Wisconsin days. The only concern with Colston lies within his own health, as he'll almost certainly lead the pack in targets barring a serious injury. Either way, he's very likely to outproduce his trade counterpart and finish with solid #2 WR numbers. Lastly, the, "could have left you to die," comment is inapplicable. It's not as if he was attempting to trade Devery Henderson or Lance Moore, or another player with a relatively low stock, so I highly doubt that he would've had much trouble finding a trading partner before the beginning of the season. I commend you on the trade. You were able to draw in a starter by giving away a player who could have potentially spent more time on the bench than he would have on your active roster.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1345383469' post='1123685']
I wouldn't label it as a pretty good deal. While there is upside in Hillis taking over down the stretch, should Charles either struggle to return to form or find himself on IR once again, Hillis still faces multiple questions coming into the season. Not only is he entrenched in a battle for touches against a very talented back, but he must also prove that he's back to 100% both mentally and physically. Granted that the reports about him have been positive thus far, his upside is still dependent on another player. Colston, on the other hand, will likely see an increased amount of targets with Robert Meachem out of the picture. And while they did draft WR Nick Toon, he's been held out due to foot concerns that have plagued him since his Wisconsin days. The only concern with Colston lies within his own health, as he'll almost certainly lead the pack in targets barring a serious injury. Either way, he's very likely to outproduce his trade counterpart and finish with solid #2 WR numbers. Lastly, the, "could have left you to die," comment is inapplicable. It's not as if he was attempting to trade Devery Henderson or Lance Moore, or another player with a relatively low stock, so I highly doubt that he would've had much trouble finding a trading partner before the beginning of the season. I commend you on the trade. You were able to draw in a starter by giving away a player who could have potentially spent more time on the bench than he would have on your active roster.
[/quote]
This is a 14 team league in which most teams have 2 rbs. Finding a trading partner that has an extra rb that would suit his need wouldnt have been easy.

Also if you look at Thoma Jones' numbers from 2010, you will see that he got plenty of carries per game to be productive. The chiefs said the want to run the ball 500 times this year and split them evenly among the two. That averages out 15.5 a game.

In addition to Colston's health concerns he will fight for targets with Jimmy Graham in the red zone and Sproles (12th most targets overall last year). Colston will give me some solid production but im not entirely sure he will out produce Hillis. There is a very realy possibility that the chiefs will have 2 1000 yard rushers this year.

[Gordo52]

I never understood the hype for Vincent Brown...

[Mt. Crushmore]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1345395375' post='1123756']
I never understood the hype for Vincent Brown...
[/quote]

He will be good.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='Mt. Crushmore' timestamp='1345396281' post='1123763']
He will be good.
[/quote]
agreed

[JO_75]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345398612' post='1123786']
agreed
[/quote]

Well it's going to be hard to do that being out 8 weeks with a Broken ankle.

[url="http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/238328/vincent-brown-breaks-ankle-out-eight-weeks"]http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/238328/vincent-brown-breaks-ankle-out-eight-weeks[/url]

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345392323' post='1123736']
This is a 14 team league in which most teams have 2 rbs. Finding a trading partner that has an extra rb that would suit his need wouldnt have been easy.

Also if you look at Thoma Jones' numbers from 2010, you will see that he got plenty of carries per game to be productive. The chiefs said the want to run the ball 500 times this year and split them evenly among the two. That averages out 15.5 a game.

In addition to Colston's health concerns he will fight for targets with Jimmy Graham in the red zone and Sproles (12th most targets overall last year). Colston will give me some solid production but im not entirely sure he will out produce Hillis. There is a very realy possibility that the chiefs will have 2 1000 yard rushers this year.
[/quote]

For someone of Marques Colston's caliber? I doubt he would've had much of a problem moving him in the upcoming weeks, especially since he was willing to package him with another player. He advertised him for a mere day and was able to complete a trade. With that in mind, it's pretty difficult to argue that nobody else would've nibbled with a reasonable offer.

If Hillis does see 250 touches, crossing the 1,000 yard mark certainly would be possible. But I'm not sold on both RBs seeing an even split throughout the year. Charlie Weis was exceptional at utilizing all of his offensive tools, and I don't know if their current OC, Brian Daboll, can duplicate Weis' performance. While Daboll did oversee Hillis' breakout campaign in Cleveland, his last 3 offenses each had a designated rusher. Given how he handled Miami's backfield, I'd probably liken my projection of carries to that of the Reggie Bush/Daniel Thomas combination he had at his disposal, though Hillis will probably finish with better overall numbers. In addition, with Dwayne Bowe finally back in the fold and Jonathan Baldwin drawing rave reviews in camp, the Chiefs should enter the season with a solid stable of WRs. If their passing game takes off, Hillis would probably be the first to see a decrease in carries. Lastly, reportedly both Romeo Crennel and Hills have hinted that he'll serve as a lead blocker on occasion, as he did in Arkansas. There's promise with Hillis though. I'm not arguing that. But his role is far from being determined.

Yes, that is correct. But how do the circumstances change for Colston from last year? Every WR will have to contest with someone else for targets, and there is nothing more challenging about Colston's situation this year. He's already proven that he can produce with that group. It's hard to imagine that Graham and Sproles could have increased roles in 2012 given their insane production levels last season. Meachem saw 60 targets last season. How much the redistribution of those targets will benefit him is difficult to predict. But his situation is arguably better than it was in 2011. I agree. It's not a full blown guarantee that Colston will outproduce Hillis, but it's very, very likely. I could understand if Colston was declining or had an off year. But he was reliable as ever, dropping only 3 passes this season and reeling in a whopping 77.4% of his targets, which was the best in the NFL among starting wideouts. I'm not saying this trade is completely unfathomable. But there was an obvious winner, at least at this point.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345392323' post='1123736']
This is a 14 team league in which most teams have 2 rbs. Finding a trading partner that has an extra rb that would suit his need wouldnt have been easy.

Also if you look at Thoma Jones' numbers from 2010, you will see that he got plenty of carries per game to be productive. The chiefs said the want to run the ball 500 times this year and split them evenly among the two. That averages out 15.5 a game.

In addition to Colston's health concerns he will fight for targets with Jimmy Graham in the red zone and Sproles (12th most targets overall last year). Colston will give me some solid production but im not entirely sure he will out produce Hillis. There is a very realy possibility that the chiefs will have 2 1000 yard rushers this year.
[/quote]

For someone of Marques Colston's caliber? I doubt he would've had much of a problem moving him in the upcoming weeks, especially since he was willing to package him with another player. He advertised him for a mere day and was able to complete a trade. With that in mind, it's pretty difficult to argue that nobody else would've nibbled with a reasonable offer.

If Hillis does see 250 touches, crossing the 1,000 yard mark certainly would be possible. But I'm not sold on both RBs seeing an even split throughout the year. Charlie Weis was exceptional at utilizing all of his offensive tools, and I don't know if their current OC, Brian Daboll, can duplicate Weis' performance. While Daboll did oversee Hillis' breakout campaign in Cleveland, his last 3 offenses each had a designated rusher. Given how he handled Miami's backfield, I'd probably liken my projection of the split to that of the Reggie Bush/Daniel Thomas combination he had at his disposal, though Hillis will probably finish with better overall numbers. In addition, with Dwayne Bowe finally back in the fold and Jonathan Baldwin drawing rave reviews in camp, the Chiefs should enter the season with a solid stable of WRs. If their passing game takes off, Hillis would probably be the first to see a decrease in carries. Lastly, reportedly both Romeo Crennel and Hills have hinted that he'll serve as a lead blocker on occasion, as he did in Arkansas. There's promise with Hillis though. I'm not arguing that. But his role is far from being determined.

Yes, that is correct. But how do the circumstances change for Colston from last year? Every WR will have to contest with someone else for targets, and there is nothing more challenging about Colston's situation this year. He's already proven that he can produce with that group. It's hard to imagine that Graham and Sproles could have increased roles in 2012 given their insane production levels last season. Meachem saw 60 targets last season. How much the redistribution of those targets will benefit him is difficult to predict. But his situation is arguably better than it was in 2011. I agree. It's not a full blown guarantee that Colston will outproduce Hillis, but it's very, very likely. I could understand if Colston was declining or had an off year. But he was reliable as ever, dropping only 3 passes this season and reeling in a whopping 77.4% of his targets, which was the best in the NFL among starting wideouts. I'm not saying this trade is completely unfathomable. But there was an obvious winner, at least at this point.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345392323' post='1123736']
This is a 14 team league in which most teams have 2 rbs. Finding a trading partner that has an extra rb that would suit his need wouldnt have been easy.

Also if you look at Thoma Jones' numbers from 2010, you will see that he got plenty of carries per game to be productive. The chiefs said the want to run the ball 500 times this year and split them evenly among the two. That averages out 15.5 a game.

In addition to Colston's health concerns he will fight for targets with Jimmy Graham in the red zone and Sproles (12th most targets overall last year). Colston will give me some solid production but im not entirely sure he will out produce Hillis. There is a very realy possibility that the chiefs will have 2 1000 yard rushers this year.
[/quote]

For someone of Marques Colston's caliber? I doubt he would've had much of a problem moving him in the upcoming weeks, especially since he was willing to package him with another player. He advertised him for a mere day and was able to complete a trade. With that in mind, it's pretty difficult to argue that nobody else would've nibbled with a reasonable offer.

If Hillis does see 250 touches, crossing the 1,000 yard mark certainly would be possible. But I'm not sold on both RBs seeing an even split throughout the year. Charlie Weis was exceptional at utilizing all of his offensive tools, and I don't know if their current OC, Brian Daboll, can duplicate Weis' performance. While Daboll did oversee Hillis' breakout campaign in Cleveland, his last 3 offenses each had a designated rusher. Given how he handled Miami's backfield, I'd probably liken my projection of the ratio to that of the Reggie Bush/Daniel Thomas combination he had at his disposal, though Hillis will probably finish with better overall numbers. In addition, with Dwayne Bowe finally back in the fold and Jonathan Baldwin drawing rave reviews in camp, the Chiefs should enter the season with a solid stable of WRs. If their passing game takes off, Hillis would probably be the first to see a decrease in carries. Lastly, reportedly both Romeo Crennel and Hills have hinted that he'll serve as a lead blocker on occasion, as he did in Arkansas. There's promise with Hillis though. I'm not arguing that. But his role is far from being determined.

Yes, that is correct. But how do the circumstances change for Colston from last year? Every WR will have to contest with someone else for targets, and there is nothing more challenging about Colston's situation this year. He's already proven that he can produce with that group. It's hard to imagine that Graham and Sproles could have increased roles in 2012 given their insane production levels last season. Meachem saw 60 targets last season. How much the redistribution of those targets will benefit him is difficult to predict. But his situation is arguably better than it was in 2011. I agree. It's not a full blown guarantee that Colston will outproduce Hillis, but it's very, very likely. I could understand if Colston was declining or had an off year. But he was reliable as ever, dropping only 3 passes this season and reeling in a whopping 77.4% of his targets, which was the best in the NFL among starting wideouts. I'm not saying this trade is completely unfathomable. But there was an obvious winner, at least at this point.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1345400191' post='1123797']
Well it's going to be hard to do that being out 8 weeks with a Broken ankle.

[url="http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/238328/vincent-brown-breaks-ankle-out-eight-weeks"]http://rotoworld.com...out-eight-weeks[/url]
[/quote]
bummer.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1345400597' post='1123807']
For someone of Marques Colston's caliber? I doubt he would've had much of a problem moving him in the upcoming weeks, especially since he was willing to package him with another player. He advertised him for a mere day and was able to complete a trade. With that in mind, it's pretty difficult to argue that nobody else would've nibbled with a reasonable offer.

If Hillis does see 250 touches, crossing the 1,000 yard mark certainly would be possible. But I'm not sold on both RBs seeing an even split throughout the year. Charlie Weis was exceptional at utilizing all of his offensive tools, and I don't know if their current OC, Brian Daboll, can duplicate Weis' performance. While Daboll did oversee Hillis' breakout campaign in Cleveland, his last 3 offenses each had a designated rusher. Given how he handled Miami's backfield, I'd probably liken my projection of the ratio to that of the Reggie Bush/Daniel Thomas combination he had at his disposal, though Hillis will probably finish with better overall numbers. In addition, with Dwayne Bowe finally back in the fold and Jonathan Baldwin drawing rave reviews in camp, the Chiefs should enter the season with a solid stable of WRs. If their passing game takes off, Hillis would probably be the first to see a decrease in carries. Lastly, reportedly both Romeo Crennel and Hills have hinted that he'll serve as a lead blocker on occasion, as he did in Arkansas. There's promise with Hillis though. I'm not arguing that. But his role is far from being determined.

Yes, that is correct. But how do the circumstances change for Colston from last year? Every WR will have to contest with someone else for targets, and there is nothing more challenging about Colston's situation this year. He's already proven that he can produce with that group. It's hard to imagine that Graham and Sproles could have increased roles in 2012 given their insane production levels last season. Meachem saw 60 targets last season. How much the redistribution of those targets will benefit him is difficult to predict. But his situation is arguably better than it was in 2011. I agree. It's not a full blown guarantee that Colston will outproduce Hillis, but it's very, very likely. I could understand if Colston was declining or had an off year. But he was reliable as ever, dropping only 3 passes this season and reeling in a whopping 77.4% of his targets, which was the best in the NFL among starting wideouts. I'm not saying this trade is completely unfathomable. But there was an obvious winner, at least at this point.
[/quote]

Again I didnt say I wasn't the winner of this trade. I had to be otherwise I wouldnt have made the trade. Thats just good business.

You are right to assume Colston may see an increased work load, but acknowledging that means that you have to also acknowledge the same for Sproles (who was 12th in red zone targets in the nfl) and Graham (who had 149 targets last year). You have to also assume that lance moore and henderson will also get, an albeit smaller portion, of the pie.

Colston ended up with good stats last year, but if you look at his per week last year, his production came in bunches with 5 of his 8 touchdowns coming in the last 4 games of the season (2, 1, 2 it occured over a 3 game span). Even if Colston ends up with better overall numbers than Hillis, if Hillis outscores Colston on a per week basis, than who really ended up as the winner of this trade?

On paper, yes I won this trade, but thats it. All it is, is on paper.

Let's not forget tho, that Hillis was a second rounder a year ago. And in his break out year he only needed 270 carries to do the damage he did.

While Charles is the guy over there, Charles is very different than your traditional feature back. Charles is not a guy who needs 20 carries a game to do his damage. All he needs is that one long run to do damage and about 15 a game is enough for him to get that. That added on to acl means that the Chiefs are more likely lean on Hillis to do the dirty work and use Charles in a more explosive fashion ie give Hillis the bulk of the work, while giving Charles only as much as he needs or is required of him. This makes the most sense for the Chiefs and players given their skill set and scenarios.

I dont think its fair to compare this combo to the Reggie Bush/Daniel Thomas combo because of several factors.

1. One or the other was injured for a good portion of the season
2. The talent levels of those backs was nowhere near the talent levels of these backs
3. Chiefs backups are not really backups. It really is a double feature back system. They will run the ball 25-30+ times a game.

Thomas Jones in 2010 only had a few games (3 where he received less than 10 carries). However the majority of the time he received 15 or more. On a per week basis that is a great workload. Not mention in many games he out carried Charles. Also Hillis will get something that was solely Charles' a year ago, and thats passing down work.

As for the passing game, yes its evolved a little bit. Baldwin however is still 3rd on the depth chart behind Breaston and Bowe. Cassel is still there quarterback. The Chiefs are a running team, they have said they are a running team, and they are going to run a lot more than they throw because its how they win.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1345400191' post='1123797']
Well it's going to be hard to do that being out 8 weeks with a Broken ankle.

[url="http://rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/238328/vincent-brown-breaks-ankle-out-eight-weeks"]http://rotoworld.com...out-eight-weeks[/url]
[/quote]
Tough break for the chargers and the kid. He is a good receiver. Would really help them when Meachem and Floyd go down with injury,

[joeyravenstdotfan1]

Quick question, i need some advice on some fantasy football scenarios, So i havr a team wit andre johnson megatron vcruz and jblackmon however i have tamme as a te. Now would it ge wiser to trade cruz for a solid running back to bak up turner or trade.cruz n maybe tamme for a better te

[BMOREHAWAII]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1345353331' post='1123641']
Breaks a Finger nail lol, wow. Sorry but as Charles's owner I disapprove of your post.
[/quote]
LOL sorry JO, it was a joke. Feel like im at a loss for giving up Colston for Hillis but hey what's done is done, and i really needed a RB.
Anyone feel like the trade isn't correct everyone in the league has the right to veto.

[Sizzlebshu]

Anyone else noticed that it takes forever for trades to process on ESPN

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='joeyravenstdotfan1' timestamp='1345408237' post='1123873']
Quick question, i need some advice on some fantasy football scenarios, So i havr a team wit andre johnson megatron vcruz and jblackmon however i have tamme as a te. Now would it ge wiser to trade cruz for a solid running back to bak up turner or trade.cruz n maybe tamme for a better te
[/quote]
Tamme should be a fine TE. I wouldnt worry about it. As for rbs however, I would try to move a wideout for a better one than Turner. Need your whole roster and league settings tho to be sure.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='joeyravenstdotfan1' timestamp='1345408237' post='1123873']
Quick question, i need some advice on some fantasy football scenarios, So i havr a team wit andre johnson megatron vcruz and jblackmon however i have tamme as a te. Now would it ge wiser to trade cruz for a solid running back to bak up turner or trade.cruz n maybe tamme for a better te
[/quote]
I would try to trade Andre and Blackmon for a upper 2 tier RB if you can. Keep Tamme, he should be alright.

Unless you can do something like Andre and Tamme for Gronk/Graham and maybe asleeper rb.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345407241' post='1123862']
Again I didnt say I wasn't the winner of this trade. I had to be otherwise I wouldnt have made the trade. Thats just good business.

You are right to assume Colston may see an increased work load, but acknowledging that means that you have to also acknowledge the same for Sproles (who was 12th in red zone targets in the nfl) and Graham (who had 149 targets last year). You have to also assume that lance moore and henderson will also get, an albeit smaller portion, of the pie.

Colston ended up with good stats last year, but if you look at his per week last year, his production came in bunches with 5 of his 8 touchdowns coming in the last 4 games of the season (2, 1, 2 it occured over a 3 game span). Even if Colston ends up with better overall numbers than Hillis, if Hillis outscores Colston on a per week basis, than who really ended up as the winner of this trade?

On paper, yes I won this trade, but thats it. All it is, is on paper.

Let's not forget tho, that Hillis was a second rounder a year ago. And in his break out year he only needed 270 carries to do the damage he did.

While Charles is the guy over there, Charles is very different than your traditional feature back. Charles is not a guy who needs 20 carries a game to do his damage. All he needs is that one long run to do damage and about 15 a game is enough for him to get that. That added on to acl means that the Chiefs are more likely lean on Hillis to do the dirty work and use Charles in a more explosive fashion ie give Hillis the bulk of the work, while giving Charles only as much as he needs or is required of him. This makes the most sense for the Chiefs and players given their skill set and scenarios.

I dont think its fair to compare this combo to the Reggie Bush/Daniel Thomas combo because of several factors.

1. One or the other was injured for a good portion of the season
2. The talent levels of those backs was nowhere near the talent levels of these backs
3. Chiefs backups are not really backups. It really is a double feature back system. They will run the ball 25-30+ times a game.

Thomas Jones in 2010 only had a few games (3 where he received less than 10 carries). However the majority of the time he received 15 or more. On a per week basis that is a great workload. Not mention in many games he out carried Charles. Also Hillis will get something that was solely Charles' a year ago, and thats passing down work.

As for the passing game, yes its evolved a little bit. Baldwin however is still 3rd on the depth chart behind Breaston and Bowe. Cassel is still there quarterback. The Chiefs are a running team, they have said they are a running team, and they are going to run a lot more than they throw because its how they win.
[/quote]

I wasn't disputing the winner. I was stating that it's hard to label this as a, "pretty good deal," as that implies that both parties came out with a relatively equal outcome. Perhaps the term is relative, as I typically drive a hard bargain, but I still don't agree with it.

You are correct. But I already acknowledged it by stating that I wasn't sure how much the redistribution will favor him. My point about his situation still stands, as it is at least no worse than it was in 2011.

His TDs may have come down the stretch, but he was still relatively consistent. Outside of the goose egg performance in week 4, it's not as if he put up 30 yards every other week. And given the Fantasy format, are we really criticizing a player who lit it up in the Playoffs? Obviously if that happens, the owner of Hills could be seen as the winner, but that is a very big if at this point. Can it occur? Absolutely. Will it occur? That's much more difficult to answer.

Considering that nobody can predict the future, all that matters now is what is on paper.

Hillis' draft value one year ago is irrelevant. It's not as if he was a premier rusher for several years before succumbing to an injury plagued season. While he impressed in spurts, he was nothing more than a reserve in Denver. He had a terrific campaign in 2010, although he fizzled down the stretch. Then he followed it up with a disastrous season. And I don't see how you can use the word, "only," in front of 270 carries. That is a ton of carries, a feature back amount.

Yes, Charles may not need 20 carries to do his damage. But how does that mean that he wouldn't be even more effective in an expanded role? Contrary to the popular belief, he doesn't need to solely depend on enormous runs to have a solid outing. In 9 games of the 2010 season, his longest run equaled 20 or less yards. To put things in perspective, Ray Rice finished with the same number in 2011. Meaning Charles must've been effective enough on the other downs to have finished with his astounding YPC of 6.4. Now I'm not saying that he's guaranteed to continue that production with an increased workload. But he's definitely showed no signs that he would fare worse with an added amount of touches. The ACL tear means that they could lean on Hillis, which is the basis on my argument. While Hillis has the upside to see a significant amount of carries, there are no guarantees with his situation. And that is much more likely to happen should Charles struggle to return to form, of which he's shown no signs of such thus far. Colton's role is practically set in stone.

Concerning the aforementioned duo, they missed a combined 4 contests in 2011, so I don't see the injury concerns factoring into the difference between their ratio. Your point regarding the disparity in talent between Bush and Thomas and Charles and Hillis doesn't relate to my projection. My projection was regarding the differences between Bush and Thomas, not the two duos. And it goes against your projection of how things could occur in Kansas City, since Bush, whose running style is similar to Charles, had more touches than Thomas, whose running style is similar to Hillis.

The Chiefs were also Top 10 in Top in 2010, meaning they had more touches to spread around. They dropped to 22nd in 2011. This number could improve, but it also contributed to the number of carries they could spread around.

Baldwin may be third on the depth chart, but I don't put much stock into pre-season depth charts. For example, David Wilson has been arguably the Giants' most effective RB through the first 2 games, after drawing rave reviews in training camp and OTAs. Yet he sits 4th on the depth chart. This will not likely be the case coming into the season. In either case, as the 3rd on the WR depth chart, he should see significantly more targets than he did last year.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1345412895' post='1123935']
I wasn't disputing the winner. I was stating that it's hard to label this as a, "pretty good deal," as that implies that both parties came out with a relatively equal outcome. Perhaps the term is relative, as I typically drive a hard bargain, but I still don't agree with it.

You are correct. But I already acknowledged it by stating that I wasn't sure how much the redistribution will favor him. My point about his situation still stands, as it is at least no worse than it was in 2011.

His TDs may have come down the stretch, but he was still relatively consistent. Outside of the goose egg performance in week 4, it's not as if he put up 30 yards every other week. And given the Fantasy format, are we really criticizing a player who lit it up in the Playoffs? Obviously if that happens, the owner of Hills could be seen as the winner, but that is a very big if at this point. Can it occur? Absolutely. Will it occur? That's much more difficult to answer.

Considering that nobody can predict the future, all that matters now is what is on paper.

Hillis' draft value one year ago is irrelevant. It's not as if he was a premier rusher for several years before succumbing to an injury plagued season. While he impressed in spurts, he was nothing more than a reserve in Denver. He had a terrific campaign in 2010, although he fizzled down the stretch. Then he followed it up with a disastrous season. And I don't see how you can use the word, "only," in front of 270 carries. That is a ton of carries, a feature back amount.

Yes, Charles may not need 20 carries to do his damage. But how does that mean that he wouldn't be even more effective in an expanded role? Contrary to the popular belief, he doesn't need to solely depend on enormous runs to have a solid outing. In 9 games of the 2010 season, his longest run equaled 20 or less yards. To put things in perspective, Ray Rice finished with the same number in 2011. Meaning Charles must've been effective enough on the other downs to have finished with his astounding YPC of 6.4. Now I'm not saying that he's guaranteed to continue that production with an increased workload. But he's definitely showed no signs that he would fare worse with an added amount of touches. The ACL tear means that they could lean on Hillis, which is the basis on my argument. While Hillis has the upside to see a significant amount of carries, there are no guarantees with his situation. And that is much more likely to happen should Charles struggle to return to form, of which he's shown no signs of such thus far. Colton's role is practically set in stone.

Concerning the aforementioned duo, they missed a combined 4 contests in 2011, so I don't see the injury concerns factoring into the difference between their ratio. Your point regarding the disparity in talent between Bush and Thomas and Charles and Hillis doesn't relate to my projection. My projection was regarding the differences between Bush and Thomas, not the two duos. And it goes against your projection of how things could occur in Kansas City, since Bush, whose running style is similar to Charles, had more touches than Thomas, whose running style is similar to Hillis.

The Chiefs were also Top 10 in Top in 2010, meaning they had more touches to spread around. They dropped to 22nd in 2011. This number could improve, but it also contributed to the number of carries they could spread around.

Baldwin may be third on the depth chart, but I don't put much stock into pre-season depth charts. For example, David Wilson has been arguably the Giants' most effective RB through the first 2 games, after drawing rave reviews in training camp and OTAs. Yet he sits 4th on the depth chart. This will not likely be the case coming into the season. In either case, as the 3rd on the WR depth chart, he should see significantly more targets than he did last year.
[/quote]

I use the term only 270 because the difference between 270 and 250 over a 16 game span is roughly a carry or 2 a game. Given the upgrades he gets at o line the difference in his YPC should make up for the loss of some carries. Its not as if he was a volume carry guy like MJD who gains significant production only from a significant workload. Not saying MJD is a bad rb at all or anything like that, but his amazing production is based in his amazing workload. You dont get 1600 yards rushing without 300+ carries.

Are you seriously arguing the Chiefs 2010 division winners vs the injury riddles Chiefs in 2011. Its almost assured that it will turn around significantly.

As for Baldwin, he may ascend the depth chart, but that wont change the fact that team is a run first team. Also if you watched the Giants game last night, when Bradshaw got injured, D.J. Ware came in and replaced him not Wilson. Could that change? Maybe. But right now that what you have to go on.

My argument was not that Charles couldnt improve with an expanded role, but that it does not benefit the team or Charles for that matter to expand his role. He is coming off acl, is a back that likes to use break away speed, and will be fresher and ultimately more dangerous a weapon on fewer carries than more. If you have Hillis who is a talented back and pretty much designed for heavy pounding type workload, why not use him for what he is suited for as a bell cow guy and use Charles as what he is suited as a homerun hitter.

As for Hillis' disastrous season - what incentive did he have for a good one? Contract year, Cleveland wouldnt pay him. He missed games with strep throat for crying out loud.


As for Colston - I wont knock him for doing it during playoffs, but would you say Vjax was consistent? It was just a couple of boom or bust moments. Other than that he gave you about 50 yards or 5 points usually. Im not counting his goose egg weeks (injuries count in fantasy to be fair) or his boom weeks (double tds down the stretch or 8 reception 120 yard weeks). All I said was that more than half his tds came in bunches, which is a bit scary and ultimately doesnt help you win games every week. It wont matter if he scores 5 in playoffs, if you're not in playoffs.

[joeyravenstdotfan1]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345409684' post='1123893']

Tamme should be a fine TE. I wouldnt worry about it. As for rbs however, I would try to move a wideout for a better one than Turner. Need your whole roster and league settings tho to be sure.
[/quote]
qbs as follows; eli and flacco, wrs: vcruz megatron andre johnson jblackmon rbs: turner reggie bush
issac redmon david wilson(giants) 49ers def . Boldin and crabtree and rackers kicking for me

[joeyravenstdotfan1]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1345412205' post='1123924']

I would try to trade Andre and Blackmon for a upper 2 tier RB if you can. Keep Tamme, he should be alright.

Unless you can do something like Andre and Tamme for Gronk/Graham and maybe asleeper rb.
[/quote] turner im unsure.about but i have david wilson and bush and i think they could put up some points

[Mt. Crushmore]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1345412895' post='1123935']
Baldwin may be third on the depth chart, but I don't put much stock into pre-season depth charts. For example, David Wilson has been arguably the Giants' most effective RB through the first 2 games, after drawing rave reviews in training camp and OTAs. Yet he sits 4th on the depth chart. This will not likely be the case coming into the season. In either case, as the 3rd on the WR depth chart, he should see significantly more targets than he did last year.
[/quote]

Baldwin will be good this year. Also I heard David Wilson doesn't know the playbook very well which is why he is so far down. He should look like the best back when he is playing against all backups.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='joeyravenstdotfan1' timestamp='1345416099' post='1123982']
turner im unsure.about but i have david wilson and bush and i think they could put up some points
[/quote]
I would still try to get another RB.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Mt. Crushmore' timestamp='1345419350' post='1124006']
Baldwin will be good this year. Also I heard David Wilson doesn't know the playbook very well which is why he is so far down. He should look like the best back when he is playing against all backups.
[/quote]

He should be. He's still learning, but I think the issue is a little overblown. During their first game, they went into the huddle on the last drive with two potential plays. Wilson mistakenly thought it was the wrong one. He stated that he knew the plays, and that it was a communication error on his part. It was still obviously his fault, and it is a concern nonetheless, but it would've been worse had he not known the plays at all. That he should, but his explosiveness was on full display. Meanwhile, the RBs who were in front of him struggled against the second team defense. I was mistaken, however. He was listed as their second RB before the first contest.

[Sizzlebshu]

On another note, Reggie Wayne looks to be his normal self. 6 catches 74 yards in the first half against Pitt. I can dig it. Good value for me if this lasts. Could be this year's Steve Smith

[Gordo52]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345436807' post='1124296']
On another note, Reggie Wayne looks to be his normal self. 6 catches 74 yards in the first half against Pitt. I can dig it. Good value for me if this lasts. Could be this year's Steve Smith
[/quote]
I agree, he's a sleeper of mine.

[JO_75]

Remember folks, you only have a 4 trade limit and I can't believe two trades have been made based on assumptions and "what if" scenarios.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1345437957' post='1124308']
Remember folks, you only have a 4 trade limit and I can't believe two trades have been made based on assumptions and "what if" scenarios.
[/quote]
4 trades isnt a lot I agree, but its also not likely that all four trades will be used either. At least for some teams.

Anyway as for the second deal, my deal, great value in it for me that really improves my wr core, and a desperation move for Bmore whose only starting rb would have been rice due to injuries. Its a deal that kind of had to be made.

[-Truth-]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1345413841' post='1123950']
I use the term only 270 because the difference between 270 and 250 over a 16 game span is roughly a carry or 2 a game. Given the upgrades he gets at o line the difference in his YPC should make up for the loss of some carries. Its not as if he was a volume carry guy like MJD who gains significant production only from a significant workload. Not saying MJD is a bad rb at all or anything like that, but his amazing production is based in his amazing workload. You dont get 1600 yards rushing without 300+ carries.

Are you seriously arguing the Chiefs 2010 division winners vs the injury riddles Chiefs in 2011. Its almost assured that it will turn around significantly.

As for Baldwin, he may ascend the depth chart, but that wont change the fact that team is a run first team. Also if you watched the Giants game last night, when Bradshaw got injured, D.J. Ware came in and replaced him not Wilson. Could that change? Maybe. But right now that what you have to go on.

My argument was not that Charles couldnt improve with an expanded role, but that it does not benefit the team or Charles for that matter to expand his role. He is coming off acl, is a back that likes to use break away speed, and will be fresher and ultimately more dangerous a weapon on fewer carries than more. If you have Hillis who is a talented back and pretty much designed for heavy pounding type workload, why not use him for what he is suited for as a bell cow guy and use Charles as what he is suited as a homerun hitter.

As for Hillis' disastrous season - what incentive did he have for a good one? Contract year, Cleveland wouldnt pay him. He missed games with strep throat for crying out loud.


As for Colston - I wont knock him for doing it during playoffs, but would you say Vjax was consistent? It was just a couple of boom or bust moments. Other than that he gave you about 50 yards or 5 points usually. Im not counting his goose egg weeks (injuries count in fantasy to be fair) or his boom weeks (double tds down the stretch or 8 reception 120 yard weeks). All I said was that more than half his tds came in bunches, which is a bit scary and ultimately doesnt help you win games every week. It wont matter if he scores 5 in playoffs, if you're not in playoffs.
[/quote]

And I'm arguing against using the word, "only," because your comment implied that 270 carries (331 touches) isn't a lofty amount. An improved OL? I won't admit to have watched the Browns' 2010 OL, nor the Chiefs 2011 OL. But according to PFF, the best run blocking grade of all of the Chiefs' OL starters is a -1.0. The Browns' best OL starter graded out at +5.5 in this category. In fact, the Browns' 3rd best starter finished with a grade of -.4. The Chiefs' 3rd best? Finished with a -4.3. They don't get too flattering afterwards, falling into the double digits. And did you honestly just suggest that Maurice Jones-Drew only produces as well because of the workload? Jones-Drews' worst season yielded a YPC of 4.2. This equals out to Hillis' career average. A whopping 954 of Jones-Drew's rushing yards came after contact, which was the best in the league, 200+ better than the 3rd placer. He also finished the year with a very solid YPC of 4.7. Had it been a 4.1 or lower, then you would've had a point. But to make that statement about an RB who gets the most out of every carry is simply outlandish.

Which point are you referring to regarding the 2010 Chiefs vs the 2011 Chiefs? If it was the one regarding the TOP, I've already stated that the number could improve. I'll sub in the should for could. But there's no guarantee that they'll be the same as when Weis was the OC. I did forget to mention that the passing down work was far from being solely Charles'. Dexter McCluster was the 8th most targeted RB in the NFL, so he'll probably see a little time there again.

Even if Baldwin remains their 3rd option, he'll obviously be a factor. During his terrible Rookie season, he still saw over 50 targets, which is rather significant. Breaston's best role has always been as a slot WR, so with Baldwin's combination of size and athleticism, he'll likely see more time on the outside, opposite of Bowe. Since you've referred to the 2010 season, the Chiefs 2nd most targeted WR was the then-released Chris Chambers. He saw 41 targets, and he finished with 213 yards. I doubt we see the same performance out of their passing game with their current plethora of weapons. Yes, he did. And D.J. Ware ran for a remarkable 15 yards on 11 carries. I was mistaken, however, as Wilson was bumped up to second before the game, which according to your point, goes against the current depth chart, thereby demeaning its relevancy.

His ACL will be a concern for the entire season. There's no arguing that. And your logic makes sense, but if Charles is as healthy as he seems, I don't see the reason to keep the ball out of his hands. While Charles' speed may be his best attribute, his success doesn't come from shying away from contact. In fact, he finished 2010 with the 6th highest average in yards after contact with a 3.2. Hillis finished 12th with a 2.9. Charles also led the NFL with a 3.6 in this category in 2010. And my point is that Daboll could've been used the same logic in Miami, given Bush's extensive history of injuries while in a limited role and Thomas' bruiser-like running style. However, he didn't. Your plan definitely could be utilized this season. No question. But it's far from being as set in stone as Colston's role within the Saints' offense.

What did incentives did Hillis have for attempting to avoid a disastrous season? How about that it's his job, his responsibility to perform at his highest level? It is generally regarded that players perform their best during their contract years, as there are always other teams who are willing to shell out above market value. Perhaps his incentive was to not have performed so poorly that he would be on another team in yet another contract year. How many weeks did he miss with strep throat? The prognosis reads that the symptoms generally disappear after a few days. I can confirm this as I've just had strep throat the week before last. My fever rose to 104+ °F during the second day, until it began suddenly disappearing within the next 36 hours. Hillis, on the other hand, missed several weeks. If I remember correctly, the main issue behind his absence was depicted in multiple reports as a personal one. One that was so severe, his teammates even went as far as holding an intervention for him. So not only are there questions about his physical state, but there are questions about his mental state as well.

I was already on record for saying that Jackson was wildly inconsistent in this thread, so no, I would not say that he's consistent. Colston averaged 5 points per game? Outside of the aforementioned game, 5 points was his lowest output. And even without factoring in the last 4 games, which accounted for his best stretch of the season, Colston still averaged 80 yards and over 8 points per game. There's nothing scary about those numbers.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1345441420' post='1124327']
And I'm arguing against using the word, "only," because your comment implied that 270 carries (331 touches) isn't a lofty amount. An improved OL? I won't admit to have watched the Browns' 2010 OL, nor the Chiefs 2011 OL. But according to PFF, the best run blocking grade of all of the Chiefs' OL starters is a -1.0. The Browns' best OL starter graded out at +5.5 in this category. In fact, the Browns' 3rd best starter finished with a grade of -.4. The Chiefs' 3rd best? Finished with a -4.3. They don't get too flattering afterwards, falling into the double digits. And did you honestly just suggest that Maurice Jones-Drew only produces as well because of the workload? Jones-Drews' worst season yielded a YPC of 4.2. This equals out to Hillis' career average. A whopping 954 of Jones-Drew's rushing yards came after contact, which was the best in the league, 200+ better than the 3rd placer. He also finished the year with a very solid YPC of 4.7. Had it been a 4.1 or lower, then you would've had a point. But to make that statement about an RB who gets the most out of every carry is simply outlandish.

Which point are you referring to regarding the 2010 Chiefs vs the 2011 Chiefs? If it was the one regarding the TOP, I've already stated that the number could improve. I'll sub in the should for could. But there's no guarantee that they'll be the same as when Weis was the OC. I did forget to mention that the passing down work was far from being solely Charles'. Dexter McCluster was the 8th most targeted RB in the NFL, so he'll probably see a little time there again.

Even if Baldwin remains their 3rd option, he'll obviously be a factor. During his terrible Rookie season, he still saw over 50 targets, which is rather significant. Breaston's best role has always been as a slot WR, so with Baldwin's combination of size and athleticism, he'll likely see more time on the outside, opposite of Bowe. Since you've referred to the 2010 season, the Chiefs 2nd most targeted WR was the then-released Chris Chambers. He saw 41 targets, and he finished with 213 yards. I doubt we see the same performance out of their passing game with their current plethora of weapons. Yes, he did. And D.J. Ware ran for a remarkable 15 yards on 11 carries. I was mistaken, however, as Wilson was bumped up to second before the game, which according to your point, goes against the current depth chart, thereby demeaning its relevancy.

His ACL will be a concern for the entire season. There's no arguing that. And your logic makes sense, but if Charles is as healthy as he seems, I don't see the reason to keep the ball out of his hands. While Charles' speed may be his best attribute, his success doesn't come from shying away from contact. In fact, he finished 2010 with the 6th highest average in yards after contact with a 3.2. Hillis finished 12th with a 2.9. Charles also led the NFL with a 3.6 in this category in 2010. And my point is that Daboll could've been used the same logic in Miami, given Bush's extensive history of injuries while in a limited role and Thomas' bruiser-like running style. However, he didn't. Your plan definitely could be utilized this season. No question. But it's far from being as set in stone as Colston's role within the Saints' offense.

What did incentives did Hillis have for attempting to avoid a disastrous season? How about that it's his job, his responsibility to perform at his highest level? It is generally regarded that players perform their best during their contract years, as there are always other teams who are willing to shell out above market value. Perhaps his incentive was to not have performed so poorly that he would be on another team in yet another contract year. How many weeks did he miss with strep throat? The prognosis reads that the symptoms generally disappear after a few days. I can confirm this as I've just had strep throat the week before last. My fever rose to 104+ °F during the second day, until it began suddenly disappearing within the next 36 hours. Hillis, on the other hand, missed several weeks. If I remember correctly, the main issue behind his absence was depicted in multiple reports as a personal one. One that was so severe, his teammates even went as far as holding an intervention for him. So not only are there questions about his physical state, but there are questions about his mental state as well.

I was already on record for saying that Jackson was wildly inconsistent in this thread, so no, I would not say that he's consistent. Colston averaged 5 points per game? Outside of the aforementioned game, 5 points was his lowest output. And even without factoring in the last 4 games, which accounted for his best stretch of the season, Colston still averaged 80 yards and over 8 points per game. There's nothing scary about those numbers.
[/quote]

I mean we can go back and forth about this for days. Arguing about what the chiefs will do with Hillis and Charles, but we might as well just wait for next week when we will get a dress rehearsal type game to see how they will use everyone.

A note on the Chiefs o line tho, in 2010 this rushing attack behind a great o line led the league in rushing with 164.2 yards a game. Cleveland that year 102.9. Not sure if the drop off was due to personal or due to not having a decent back for awhile , but personal was at least addressed by signing Winston, I wouldnt be surprised if this attack led the league again.

Also with Hillis being a capable passing down back, I could see Mccluster's role diminishing unless he is split out as a wr. Hillis can block catch passes etc... Charles will obv be in on the passing downs, Mccluster's increased role last year was probably due to Charles going down. But again you could argue it either way so I wont go there.

Reasons behind Hillis missing games from what I heard were as follows

Strep Throat - at least 1 week maybe 2 not 100% on this
Hamstring-

I didnt hear about any personal reasons, maybe its cause other people were saying that his agent was telling him not to play and chalked it up to contract dispute reasons. But either way he missed 6 games that season which is significant.