Trade Ray Rice?

[Gordo52]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1337860932' post='1081749']
You must have missed the Steelers game, and the playoffs where Rice did [i]absolutely nothing[/i], and Joe carried us to victory/put us in position for victory.
[/quote]
You must have missed the whole season when Ray Rice carried our offense on his back.

[Militant X 1]

a trade Rice thread? wow! we need football quick, fast and in a hurry! smh!

~Mili

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1337872793' post='1081830']
You must have missed the whole season when Ray Rice carried our offense on his back.
[/quote]

Rice was a sizeable part of it, but he didn't carry the offense.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1337875138' post='1081867']
Rice was a sizeable part of it, but he didn't carry the offense.
[/quote]

I think it was made evident in the playoffs that our offense does not [i]need[/i] Rice to perform.

[AsianRice]

Possibly, this thread would be legit if Rice is following CJ's holdout.....

No doubt, Rice is one of the very important pieces in our offense.....

Rice is deserved to get paid but how much is the ultimate question.....

It would be stupid to think about trading for Rice right now when the season hasn't started yet.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1337875138' post='1081867']
Rice was a sizeable part of it, but he didn't carry the offense.
[/quote]
He carried us. Joe got it done when he needed to, but our offense ran through Ray Rice...We saw the results when he got under 10 carrys.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1337878593' post='1081899']
He carried us. Joe got it done when he needed to, but our offense ran through Ray Rice...We saw the results when he got under 10 carrys.
[/quote]

It's a [i]team[/i] game. Rice would have done nothing about Leach and the o-line (even with the latter's relative inconsistencies).

I'm not going to look at him receiving less than 10 carries in a vacuum. He had 9 against the Rams because he wasn't needed, and the team won comfortably. Cam's pass-happy game-plan against the Jags and Seahawks made no sense, but those games ended as losses for more reasons than Rice's lack of involvement.

Conversely, there were games where he pounded the rock without any notable success (49ers, Jets, Cardinals, second Steelers match-up), and the team still won. I won't put those performances all on his shoulders, but they're just more examples of Rice not being the end-all-be-all.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1337878593' post='1081899']
He carried us. Joe got it done when he needed to, but our offense ran through Ray Rice...We saw the results when he got under 10 carrys.
[/quote]
Ray rice did not carry us. Only in 3 games did he run the ball over 25 times, his attempts in total were down from last year.

Joes attempts rose considerably. We are moving further away from RR carrying us.

MJD carries Jax, RR does not, i repeat does not carry this offense.

Having Ray helps joe no doubt, having a passing game which can be a threat like ours helps ray out. Without Ray joes play may drop, without joe rays play may drop.

MJD gets zero, zero help. He carries that team. his passing game cant get any worse.

Ray doesnt carry this offense, thats absurd.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1337879717' post='1081912']
It's a [i]team[/i] game. Rice would have done nothing about Leach and the o-line (even with the latter's relative inconsistencies).

I'm not going to look at him receiving less than 10 carries in a vacuum. He had 9 against the Rams because he wasn't needed, and the team won comfortably. Cam's pass-happy game-plan against the Jags and Seahawks made no sense, but those games ended as losses for more reasons than Rice's lack of involvement.

Conversely, there were games where he pounded the rock without any notable success (49ers, Jets, Cardinals, second Steelers match-up), and the team still won. I won't put those performances all on his shoulders, but they're just more examples of Rice not being the end-all-be-all.
[/quote]just for one example. we beat the cards, ray rice had 18 carries. yea ray carried us, he averaged 3.5 for 63 yards. It was Joe that "carried" the offense if you want to pick out anyone, but at the same time, joe may not have done what he did, had ray not got the 18 touches prior...

See how this works Ravens <3??? One leads off from the other. No one man carries our offense, no one man carries any offense, with minor exceptions being P Manning (colts) and MJD to name a few.

Ray or Joe dont carry this offense, theyy work together and off eachother

[sameoldbull]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337880298' post='1081921']
just for one example. we beat the cards, ray rice had 18 carries. yea ray carried us, he averaged 3.5 for 63 yards. It was Joe that "carried" the offense if you want to pick out anyone, but at the same time, joe may not have done what he did, had ray not got the 18 touches prior...

See how this works Ravens <3??? One leads off from the other. No one man carries our offense, no one man carries any offense, with minor exceptions being P Manning (colts) and MJD to name a few.

Ray or Joe dont carry this offense, theyy work together and off eachother
[/quote]

Or was it Boldin. Damn he turned on the beast mode!

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='sameoldbull' timestamp='1337881178' post='1081930']
Or was it Boldin. Damn he turned on the beast mode!
[/quote]
he wouldnt have caught anything without joe, joe couldnt have got the yards with out boldin.. thats the point, we arent a one man offense, but argubaly due to the value of the position, Joe is thee most important. i dont think that can be argued

[Gordo52]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337880071' post='1081914']
Ray rice did not carry us. Only in 3 games did he run the ball over 25 times, his attempts in total were down from last year.

Joes attempts rose considerably. We are moving further away from RR carrying us.

MJD carries Jax, RR does not, i repeat does not carry this offense.

Having Ray helps joe no doubt, having a passing game which can be a threat like ours helps ray out. Without Ray joes play may drop, without joe rays play may drop.

MJD gets zero, zero help. He carries that team. his passing game cant get any worse.

Ray doesnt carry this offense, thats absurd.
[/quote]
Ok, good point. MJD definetely carries the Jags and when comparing him and Rice its no doubt.

Carry was the wrong word to use. I'm lost for words to try and describe what I'm saying but you can't honestly tell me that the offense didnt live through Rice last year.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1337882016' post='1081936']

Ok, good point. MJD definetely carries the Jags and when comparing him and Rice its no doubt.

Carry was the wrong word to use. I'm lost for words to try and describe what I'm saying but you can't honestly tell me that the offense didnt live through Rice last year.
[/quote]While you could argue that if we didn't have ray rice who's to say Joe and our passing game doesn't improve because they, as in cam and Joe don't rely on ray

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337883329' post='1081947']
While you could argue that if we didn't have ray rice who's to say Joe and our passing game doesn't improve because they, as in cam and Joe don't rely on ray
[/quote]
I would argue that Ray Rice is our greatest matchup nightmare in the passing game. In fact I would say it's the only reliable matchup we have in the passing game.

[BMORElegacy]

The FO can't do ANYTHING until he has signed his Franchise tag..

[BMORElegacy]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1337882016' post='1081936']
Ok, good point. MJD definetely carries the Jags and when comparing him and Rice its no doubt.

Carry was the wrong word to use. I'm lost for words to try and describe what I'm saying but you can't honestly tell me that the offense didnt live through Rice last year.
[/quote]All the more reason not to give him upwards of 30 million guaranteed.... The kind of touches he's gotten through college and the pros DO NOT bode well for a running back of his stature and build. If Rice gets the deal he wants we'd be one awkward cut away from a cap crisis.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1337884194' post='1081955']
I would argue that Ray Rice is our greatest matchup nightmare in the passing game. In fact I would say it's the only reliable matchup we have in the passing game.
[/quote]
I agree. I think a lot of people are under-rating Rice's ability to be a receiver and just harping on his somewhat pedestrian rushing ability. I'm not an expert by any means, but I really do think his versatility is what makes Ray Rice such a weapon. He isnt just a check-down back, he is frequently lined up as a receiver and used either as a decoy or a mis-match depending on the coverage.

On the flip-side, it would be interesting to see if our offense would be forced to evolve if we lacked a weapon like Rice. I think Cam tends to lean too heavily on him (despite what the media may think) and this takes away from the development of our receivers and QB.

I dont want to make this into a Cam-bashing argument, but I think other OC's might find more creative ways to implement Rice's talents and the talents of the other skill players in our offense.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1337884610' post='1081958']
I agree. I think a lot of people are under-rating Rice's ability to be a receiver and just harping on his somewhat pedestrian rushing ability. I'm not an expert by any means, but I really do think his versatility is what makes Ray Rice such a weapon. He isnt just a check-down back, he is frequently lined up as a receiver and used either as a decoy or a mis-match depending on the coverage.

On the flip-side, it would be interesting to see if our offense would be forced to evolve if we lacked a weapon like Rice. I think Cam tends to lean too heavily on him (despite what the media may think) and this takes away from the development of our receivers and QB.

I dont want to make this into a Cam-bashing argument, but I think other OC's might find more creative ways to implement Rice's talents and the talents of the other skill players in our offense.
[/quote]

I want a better runner and ray rice. I wouldn't be sick if it were 25 guaranteed. But 30... I'd flip tables.

And I'll give Cam this, he is good with motion and using Rice. It's the receivers he struggles with.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='BMORElegacy' timestamp='1337884440' post='1081957']
All the more reason not to give him upwards of 30 million guaranteed.... The kind of touches he's gotten through college and the pros DO NOT bode well for a running back of his stature and build. If Rice gets the deal he wants we'd be one awkward cut away from a cap crisis.
[/quote]
I dont think anyone on this board, maybe with a couple of exceptions, think Rice should get 30M guaranteed, and I also am fairly confident that the FO knows the value of Rice and has offered him fair compensation. Personally, I hope Rice's side is willing to come down if he is indeed looking for such a lucrative pay-day because I really do think Rice is an exceptional talent and the Ravens are a better team when he is on the field.

[TZMou]

This year could be Ray Lewis' last chance to get another superbowl ring, I want my best guys on the field and Rice is one of those guys.

[BMORElegacy]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1337884766' post='1081960']
I dont think anyone on this board, maybe with a couple of exceptions, think Rice should get 30M guaranteed, and I also am fairly confident that the FO knows the value of Rice and has offered him fair compensation. Personally, I hope Rice's side is willing to come down if he is indeed looking for such a lucrative pay-day because I really do think Rice is an exceptional talent and the Ravens are a better team when he is on the field.
[/quote]I don't think anybody with an objective perspective on the matter would think that Rice should get 30 M guaranteed. But there in lies the issue with contract negotiations. If Ray Rice has a number that he deems reflects his worth (that being closer to 30M), and the FO sees that number being significantly lower, then Houston, we have a problem. All the logic in the world doesn't mean a diddly poo if the player has a price in mind and refuses to budge. If Rice is dead set on a price that the Ravens aren't willing to meet (and shouldn't meet because it would be putting this organization in financial crisis), then nothing is going to happen and Rice will remain unsigned.

I must admit though, with all this talk about money with Rice, Reed, and Joe it could always be worse. We could have the money hungry Revis on this team. He held out for the entire offseason two years ago for a new deal and is preparing to do the same thing this year because he wants even more money.... Haven't these players ever heard of the 7 Deadly Sins? Last time I checked greed was on that list.

[BMOREHAWAII]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337883329' post='1081947']
While you could argue that if we didn't have ray rice who's to say Joe and our passing game doesn't improve because they, as in cam and Joe don't rely on ray
[/quote]
LOL! Are you serious? Ray was the checkdown guy who bailed them out in a sticky situatution, majority of the time the LAST LOOKED for player when other receivers aren't open. How would our passing game [i]improve[/i]?

Ray obviously had a considerable drop of carries, obviously thats good for longevity. But still his statistics like improved since last year. And we would trade him for who?

[gabefergy]

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1337887661' post='1081992']
LOL! Are you serious? Ray was the checkdown guy who bailed them out in a sticky situatution, majority of the time the LAST LOOKED for player when other receivers aren't open.[b] How would our passing game [i]improve[/i][/b]?

Ray obviously had a considerable drop of carries, obviously thats good for longevity. But still his statistics like improved since last year. And we would trade him for who?
[/quote]

Simply put, our passing game could potentially improve because we dont have the workhorse back to fall back on. Without Rice, our offense would have to evolve and get past the run-run-pass formula that Cam falls into. This would require some creativity out of the OC, but it's not un-reasonable to think the passing game would makes strides.

Take the Steelers as a prime example, they got past their run-first mantra recently and their offense, specifically their passing attack, has greatly improved. You could argue they have better weapons in the passing game, but I really think our WRs/TEs are talented enough to be leaned on in a smart pass-first offense.

That said, I dont think we should trade Rice, but I would still like to see our offense evolve this upcoming season.

[tsizzle95]

i think a lot of people are underestimating ray rice's value to this team. like people have already said, he was 35% of our offense last year, he finished first in yards from scrimage, and i think the thing that most people take for granted is that he is really durable. you dont often come across a rb who doesnt get hurt. yeah you can make an argument that forte, foster, peterson, and mcfadden are better then him, but they are all injury prone. this offense really benefits from his production. dont worry the front office will be able to make a long term deal with him without breaking the bank. relax people

[BMOREHAWAII]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1337888468' post='1082017']
Simply put, our passing game could potentially improve because we dont have the workhorse back to fall back on. Without Rice, our offense would have to evolve and get past the run-run-pass formula that Cam falls into. This would require some creativity out of the OC, but it's not un-reasonable to think the passing game would makes strides.

Take the Steelers as a prime example, they got past their run-first mantra recently and their offense, specifically their passing attack, has greatly improved. You could argue they have better weapons in the passing game, but I really think our WRs/TEs are talented enough to be leaned on in a smart pass-first offense.

That said, I dont think we should trade Rice, but I would still like to see our offense evolve this upcoming season.
[/quote]
I understand completely of the picture your'e trying to paint for me. But like you said, Pittsburgh obviously improved in the passing attacked but they [i][size=3]did [/size][/i][size=3][size=4]have better receivers than we did, and i wouldn't blame them from getting away from it because Mendenhall isn't exactly someone i would trust to carry the offensive load.[/size][/size]

[size=3][size=4]Anyway, my point being is that if we do go pass heavy over/run heavy and Ray isn't there like he has been over the past few years to be that "security blanket" when nobody gets open[/size][/size], i think it would spell disaster for the offense. That's just IMO..

[BMOREHAWAII]

[quote name='tsizzle95' timestamp='1337888919' post='1082022']
i think a lot of people are underestimating ray rice's value to this team. like people have already said, he was 35% of our offense last year, he finished first in yards from scrimage, and i think the thing that most people take for granted is that he is really durable. you dont often come across a rb who doesnt get hurt. yeah [b]you can make an argument that forte, foster[/b], peterson, and mcfadden are better then him, but they are all injury prone. this offense really benefits from his production. dont worry the front office will be able to make a long term deal with him without breaking the bank. relax people
[/quote]
McFadden IMO is THE complete back and if not injury prone like you stated would probably be the best RB in the league, and AP obviously the league elite runner.

But what you said about Foster/Forte maybe being better than Ray...Thats theres fightin' words!!

[rmw10]

[quote name='tsizzle95' timestamp='1337888919' post='1082022']
i think a lot of people are underestimating ray rice's value to this team. like people have already said, he was 35% of our offense last year, he finished first in yards from scrimage, and i think the thing that most people take for granted is that he is really durable. you dont often come across a rb who doesnt get hurt. yeah you can make an argument that forte, foster, peterson, and mcfadden are better then him, but they are all injury prone. this offense really benefits from his production. dont worry the front office will be able to make a long term deal with him without breaking the bank. relax people
[/quote]

Well that's the issue. A RB should not account for 35% of an offense. Him accounting for 35% of an offense is completely terrible news down the road, which is where durability comes in. He's been run into the ground at Rutgers and here, and it's hard to imagine him staying that durable as the next few seasons go on, especially with his size. I'm not saying to trade him, but you have to look at the future prospectives of the deal, not just what he'd offer now.

[Kwothdaraven]

I would for a higg to mid first rd pick

[Grapple Raven]

[i]Don't get me wrong, I appreciate what Ray Rice has done for the Ravens, but the bottom line in contract negoiations is you aren't paying a player for what he has done, you pay a player based on his future potential worth to the team.[/i]

[i]Agents are a necessary evil I guess. The public relations game was in place and Rice played it well during the season, saying and doing the right things in public, and he still is. The Stacey Keibler promo is a classic example. Rice and his PR people are shrewd, make no mistake about it! They have done a great job keeping him in the public's eye even in the off-season with a positive spin. [i]This past season, in his contract year, Rice got ALOT of attention right or wrongfully so and I think that has somewhat inflated his feeling of self-worth as a player, and his value to the team, you could see it in his attitude on the field...the SF game comes to mind first. That attitude may be the underlying pervasive factor currently at play with the negoiations, and it is a shame is has to come down to that because I really feel that isn't the real Ray Rice. Leaks concerning contract negoiations whether true and valid or not, never serve a positive end. This is a matter best done in private. Money doesn't always bring out the best side in people unfortunately. The best we can hope for is fairness on both sides and no colateral damage to team morale. [/i][/i]
[i][i](Just my two cents on a different perspective.)[/i][/i]

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337858800' post='1081746']
I'd try and get Joe done this year tag rice next year then trade him for a 1st in the top 15 or 20 and then we will come out of the draft with 2 from Wr LT Ilb and FS in the first.
[/quote]

This would be an ideal scenario, but I stand by my previous statement. Joe is going to do his best to show that he's worth Top 5 QB money. His deal will not get done this season and he will be tagged. Interesting side note is I think Joe will actually show up to OTAs under the tag, unlike Rice.

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1337862347' post='1081755']
It would be easier to replace Rice than it would be to get another franchise QB, look at Mojo he was last seasons leading rusher and we all know how far he went without a QB, and I don't even know who the starting HB for the Pats and Saints are.

We have to see what Rice can do without Grubbs before we pay him.
[/quote]

Both the Saints and the Pats used a stable of backs to get their rushing yards. Green-Ellis was the Pats starter, but it's difficult to say who the Saints used in that role because none of them got that many more yards than the other. From seasons past I would say it was Pierre Thomas, but Sproles and Ivory both contributed significantly to the team. The Pats don't run that much, but the Saints were most effective and won a Super Bowl when they utilized a balance attack. I'm not suggesting getting rid of Rice and cutting out the run game, I'm saying his production can be matched for cheaper.

As to the second point, we know what Rice can do without Grubbs: nothing. He was pathetic during 2010 and the games in which Grubbs was injured this season. Without a solid offensive line Rice will not produce, it is a fact that is backed up from numbers during his career.

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1337868951' post='1081794']
This is only true if Cameron insists on rolling out the vanilla offense and not adjusting to the game situations. Let's try a few multi-receiver sets and find creative ways to use the TEs like we did a few times last season.
[/quote]

This isn't a Cam thread, but get real. Cam has been here for four years and has not adjusted. We've seen the same vanilla offense year in and year out. Expecting him to magically grow a brain over the off-season is crazy and I can't believe so many people are buying into that theory.

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1337870286' post='1081807']
Sure, Benson wouldn't be the worst option to bring in should a situation like this occur. But with him in the fold, our offense will be even more predictable than it is now. Remember in 2010, when Willis McGahee subbed in, everybody and they momma knew that it was a designed run, and he was often stuffed near the LOS? Imagine that through the entirety of the season. Ugh.
[/quote]

2010 was a different season with a worse offensive line. Flacco has probably gained enough respect as a passer to mitigate this concern, but with Cam I'm still fearful of this. I don't think there's a better option on the open market right now, and getting a good return off of Rice to build for the future still seems like a better move for the team in the long run.

[quote name='sameoldbull' timestamp='1337871102' post='1081815']
I like Ray Rice. I definitely do. He is a great player, a great person and he does a lot for the community. But if we can't have Ray Rice and Joe Flacco because of the cap I would rather have Joe Flacco.
As for a trade. Maybe Miami? I know they just drafted Lamar Miller (4th round), but the only runningback they have capable of being a starter would be Reggie Bush. Miami have been rumoured to not resign Jake Long. What about trading for him? We would get a franchise left tackle for a franchise runningback. Please don't kill me. Just a thought.
[/quote]

Miami (foolishly) believes in Bush so I doubt they'd be receptive to the trade. If you can get Jake Long for Ray Rice you do that in a heartbeat though without a second thought. That could turn this line into an elite offensive line improving not only Joe, as he would have more time to throw, but also any running back brought in to replace him. Long would be good enough to cover up any weakness at LG, but I think Osemele would be ok next to a player like him. This would be the dream scenario though.

[quote name='BMORElegacy' timestamp='1337884440' post='1081957']
All the more reason not to give him upwards of 30 million guaranteed.... The kind of touches he's gotten through college and the pros DO NOT bode well for a running back of his stature and build. If Rice gets the deal he wants we'd be one awkward cut away from a cap crisis.
[/quote]

This is another good point. Rice has a lot of wear and tear as it is. If he were to get another contract from the team, I wouldn't make it more than three years. If he can fetch a decent return now I'd rather take the gamble though.

[quote name='TZMou' timestamp='1337884930' post='1081963']
This year could be Ray Lewis' last chance to get another superbowl ring, I want my best guys on the field and Rice is one of those guys.
[/quote]

If there's one thing Ozzie has been forced to learn, it's that you don't build your team for one year. He tried to do that to repeat as Super Bowl champs and it failed miserably. Look at the Eagles from last year. I'd like to get Lewis get another ring, but not at the cost of the long term success of the team. Not even Ray is bigger than the franchise.

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1337888468' post='1082017']
Take the Steelers as a prime example, they got past their run-first mantra recently and their offense, specifically their passing attack, has greatly improved. You could argue they have better weapons in the passing game, but I really think our WRs/TEs are talented enough to be leaned on in a smart pass-first offense.
[/quote]

Our team generally goes as Pittsburgh goes, and I think we will eventually transition to a pass-first attack like the Steelers have. This decreases the chance that Rice will get the money he wants from this team. I still think that expecting offensive evolution from Cam is a long wait for a train don't come.