Trade Ray Rice?

[T3hRaven]

By all accounts, Ray Rice contract talks are not going well. The FO has stated that if he wants AP type money he isn't getting it. If it doesn't get done before July 16th, I think it's safe to assume that Rice is gone after this season. The team can't afford to pay him what he wants if he wants to get Flacco. As controversial as he is, it is almost impossible to find a guy who can give you consistent play at the quarterback position. With the multiple running backs that are essential to today's league, it is quite easy to get an adequate amount of running production. Taking this into account, if we can't keep Rice why not get some value out of him?

Ray Rice has put up regular season numbers. He is arguably the best pass catching back in the league who adds a dynamic piece to an offense. There are a lot of teams who would give up quite a bit to get Rice in the hopes that he will be the same guy in their system. We might be able to snag a first round pick or a quality player paired with another high pick for him (perhaps a pass rusher). This trade could help bolster an area of weakness to help us get over the hump this year with the possibility of keeping us in it more in the future. We have holes coming up that need to be filled on the defense with the imminent departure of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed in addition to LT and WR.

This would leave a hole at running back as Allen and Pierce probably aren't ready. Thus, this scenario hinges on one player: Cedric Benson. Regardless of who we get in a trade, Benson can be had as Rice's replacement for this season. As a runner, Benson figured it out in Cincy and saved his career. For my money, I would rather have him on the team than Ray Rice anyway. He's what you want from your running back in Cam's system. He's a pure power runner who can consistently move the chains, as opposed to Ray Rice who might give you one big play along with 15 of nothing. He's YPC isn't elite, but overall Cincy has a weaker line than us. He can still get you 1000 yards a season, and he'll do it in a fashion that better fits this offensive system. Less no gains will put Flacco in better position, and I think our three and outs would decrease since we won't have to rely on the big play in the running game. Some might say his style is what Pierce's is, but Pierce is a one cut and run runner a la Arian Foster more than a power back from what I can find. Regardless, the market for running backs, especially one with the off the field issues like Benson, is thinning. He'll come cheap, on a team like this he will be placed into the best position for him to stay clean so to speak, and on this team he would be a top 15 running back again.

Despite the logic, I await the firestorm. This topic was not made to insult Rice. He's a good football player, he's entertaining, and I like him. I just think that we can get more value from him this way to help the team. Adding picks could help us address our needs and the move saves cap space to sign other players we like, such as Flacco. The move makes sense. Do I think it will happen? Probably not. I still think it's a good idea.

[PurpleDrink]

^^^Word?

[usmccharles]

honestly its not that bad of an idea, but you run into some problems:

- Rbs are not as important as they used to be, getting something that we think is fair prolly wouldnt happen.
- who would you trade him for? to throw the idea out you should at least have some names to throw out there, even if its just for fun
- RR was responsible for 35% i think of our offense (saw something on espn today actually) and has led the league since 09 in total yards from scrimage. you cant just replace that, so to plug in benson for this year, we would see a huge drop off in production for the offense unless we got an elite wr and thats not happening.
-say we trade for someone, then that guy just flat out fails...ie a lee evans situation. what would you be saying then?


Im a RR supported and think he should get his money, 4/40mill would be fine by me. Alot of people make the arguement hes not that great of a "runner" yet he was second in the nfl in yards. I think why hes so great is because hes a dual threat, even if hes not the best runner, he makes up for that in the passing game, id much rather have a dual threat thats great at both then just a pure runner. Regauardless, this topic will get beat to death...again. I want to keep RR, i think his next two years will be his biggest, with us expanding the passing game just opens our offense up even more, especially for him. It will be a huge mistake if we get rid of him...Book It.

[BloodRaven]

He had a pair of elite guards and the best FB in the game, look at his production from year to year and tell me he's an AD type dominant rusher who doesn't need dominant blocking.

[Markus92]

I agree...i like rice but never was such a fan where we should break our bank for him.....

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='usmccharles' timestamp='1337840363' post='1081719']
honestly its not that bad of an idea, but you run into some problems:

- Rbs are not as important as they used to be, getting something that we think is fair prolly wouldnt happen.
- who would you trade him for? to throw the idea out you should at least have some names to throw out there, even if its just for fun
- RR was responsible for 35% i think of our offense (saw something on espn today actually) and has led the league since 09 in total yards from scrimage. you cant just replace that, so to plug in benson for this year, we would see a huge drop off in production for the offense unless we got an elite wr and thats not happening.
-say we trade for someone, then that guy just flat out fails...ie a lee evans situation. what would you be saying then?
[/quote]

I'll hit all your points in order. While running backs are not as valued in today's league, there are GMs who will see Ray Rice the way a lot of fans see him as this be all end all part of the offense. There are a few teams who will be willing to break the bank for him unlike Ozzie. As long as we get at least a second round draft pick (with a fourth or something) the compensation will be fair. You have to view this more like an NBA situation, where we can either get compensation for 'hitting' on Ray Rice or get nothing when he leaves during FA. Something is better than nothing.

I haven't put much thought into what to trade him for as I'm not sure how the FO views the team right now. The picture will become clearer after training camps. While I don't want this to happen as it will create its own problems, one possibility would be trading him to the Giants for Osi Umenyiora and a draft pick of some sort as the Giants are relying on a rookie RB right now.

This is where we get into the nitty gritty of what I believe is an inherently flawed offensive system of Cam Cameron. Instead of saying Ray Rice is 35% of the offense and we can't get rid of him, you should be saying why the heck is Ray Rice 35% of the offense. That's not a good statistic, that's a TERRIBLE statistic. Our offense goes through the running back way too much because he gets too many touches in the passing game. Cam calls long developing plays while passing, and if the receivers don't have time to complete their routes or can't get open due to other reasons Flacco has no choice but to check down. Since Cam's arrival we have been using slower receivers who do not fit his system and have trouble beating man on man coverage for issues beyond which I can explain without derailing the topic. This has increased the percentage of necessary check downs and thus artificially inflated Ray Rice's usage. Rice gets a larger number of touches due to this flaw which causes him to be passed to a lot, thus he has a high use percentage. Because of his tendency to do nothing and get all of his production on a big play or two, Rice has a very low percentage of quality touches IMO, but that's a different topic entirely. In closing on this point, I would just say don't blame Flacco for the check downs because Drew Brees had to do the same thing to Tomlinson during his time under this idiot OC. Tomlinson fit the system better than Rice though because he was much more consistent in moving the chains during his prime, but again I digress.

Ray Rice is a quality player. Unlike the Lee Evans scenario, where we were attempting to buy a veteran player low on the hope of decent returns, we are giving up a real tangible piece in the trade. It's a fairly safe bet we can get a guy who has produced and will produce in this league for Rice. I also stress the importance of adding draft picks in the deal, which could mitigate any potential loss from the traded person. We're giving up a good player and should get some compensation for it.

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1337841583' post='1081720']
He had a pair of elite guards and the best FB in the game, look at his production from year to year and tell me he's an AD type dominant rusher who doesn't need dominant blocking.
[/quote]

When you look at this year without Grubbs vs. this year with Grubbs, it was quite obvious. As I've already stated elsewhere, his numbers from 2010 were pathetic, but not everyone sees it that way. I don't think he's an effective runner without a good OL, and when you pay a guy $10 million you can't afford to pay to have that type of OL. I'd rather get a cheaper RB with a better OL since the OL benefits both the QB and the RB and we would wind up getting more offensive production from that as a result.

[gabefergy]

Well first off, Rice isnt going to be traded, at least not this season. And Cedric Benson is not any kind of answer at RB.

I could potentially see a scenario in which Rice could be Franchised again and shopped around after this coming season, but that is taking a bit of a risk.

I'm not sure what the trade market would be for Rice, so I'm not going to speculate on what we might be able to get back. I think a lot will depend on the development of the young backs already on the team and if they show promise this season, Rice may lose what leverage he had. Hopefully, this lends itself to signing him at a reasonable rate which should still be the team's #1 priority. Rice puts up impressive numbers and has wildly outperformed his rookie deal.

He is one of the best all purpose backs in the game today, reminiscent of Marshall Faulk in his prime. He isnt a power runner, but he brings flexibility and that does add value. Teams have to account for him on every play or he will burn them. Believe it or not, that does open up our offense. Look for instance at what happened in the AFCCG. Everyone is quick to point out how Rice was shut down, and while true that doesnt tell the whole story. NE made it a point to stuff Rice and that allowed our passing game to perform well and take advantage of mis-matches created in some part by the threat of Ray Rice.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1337843846' post='1081724']
Well first off, Rice isnt going to be traded, at least not this season. And Cedric Benson is not any kind of answer at RB.

I could potentially see a scenario in which Rice could be Franchised again and shopped around after this coming season, but that is taking a bit of a risk.

I'm not sure what the trade market would be for Rice, so I'm not going to speculate on what we might be able to get back. I think a lot will depend on the development of the young backs already on the team and if they show promise this season, Rice may lose what leverage he had. Hopefully, this lends itself to signing him at a reasonable rate which should still be the team's #1 priority. Rice puts up impressive numbers and has wildly outperformed his rookie deal.
[/quote]

I agree he won't be traded, but I would still make the move. I guessing I have some differences in opinion on player-personnel compared to the FO that would make me more likely to pull the gun on this. Regardless, I think this is a better source of discussion and debate than some of the other nonsense that's being discussed during the off-season.

Tagging and trading next season is an interesting scenario as well, but I don't see that as being possible. Flacco is not going to get low-balled with a year left on his deal. He's going to go out there and do his best to take advantage of a bad offensive system to get more money on his own contract. A deal will not get done and you do not give up a QB who can actually play in this league, so he will undoubtedly be the tag next off-season. Book it. If Rice isn't re-signed before July 16th I'd say there's a 95% chance that he is gone after this season.

What is your problem with Benson though? He put up three years of 1000 yard seasons in Cincy. That's a pretty good indication that he could give us the thousand or so yards we would need in Baltimore. I would understand if the off the field stuff would give you pause, but this is the best scenario for a player like that and he would be relatively safe here. Even without trading Rice the FO should be considering him as a backup RB option so we won't have to rely on Pierce and he will come cheap.

[ThePurpleWall]

and here we go.

[raybaby]

Benson fumbles. Too much.

[Natty Boh]

Personally, I have no problem with the thought of trading him but I don't see it happening. Worst case scenario, they franchise him this season and next season and get 2 seasons out of him. Each season that he plays, he naturally gets a year older. With age his value decreases as the life of a NFL RB is typically thought to start going downhill at 30 years old. The longer Ray Rice waits to ink a deal, the more guaranteed money he potentially will cost himself. He is 25 right now so in 2 seasons he will be 27. That leaves only 3 more years of prime NFL RB career for him. Nobody will give him big money (relatively speaking) for a 3 year deal that will probably see him to the end of his career, where his production will most likely decrease as well.

I believe Ray Rice and his agent both know they have to agree to a deal with the Ravens sooner than later. Nobody can predict the future but a lot can happen in 2 seasons. Injury, offensive scheme change, decreased production, etc... Basically meaning there is the potential for his value to decrease with the Ravens and other teams aside from his age.

[Rav'n Maniac]

I would have no problem with trading him, especially now while he has good value. His production can be matched. I have no doubt. We have a stable of young rb's that could match or exceed his ground yardage. The wr's & especially the te's could minimize any loss in passing yards, if adjustments are made. We would just need to adapt & overcome.

A first round pick or a 2nd & a 4th would be ideal.

[usmccharles]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1337843822' post='1081723']
I'll hit all your points in order. While running backs are not as valued in today's league, there are GMs who will see Ray Rice the way a lot of fans see him as this be all end all part of the offense. There are a few teams who will be willing to break the bank for him unlike Ozzie. As long as we get at least a second round draft pick (with a fourth or something) the compensation will be fair. You have to view this more like an NBA situation, where we can either get compensation for 'hitting' on Ray Rice or get nothing when he leaves during FA. Something is better than nothing.[color=#ff0000] I agree to an extent, i was just merely pointing out issues that would keep us from getting what he is actually worth. Reminds me of the dwight howard situation in nba as you mentioned. Although i wouldnt be happy with a 2 and a 4. This is a hard situation to judge RR's worth considering, i could be wrong, but i dont think an elite player, (rb) has ever been traded while in their prime. [/color]

I haven't put much thought into what to trade him for as I'm not sure how the FO views the team right now. The picture will become clearer after training camps. While I don't want this to happen as it will create its own problems, one possibility would be trading him to the Giants for Osi Umenyiora and a draft pick of some sort as the Giants are relying on a rookie RB right now. [color=#ff0000]In theory it would be good, but a inury prone 30+ year old guy who wants basically the same money as rice wouldnt make since to me. If we could of got a mario williams then id make that trade any day, just wouldnt of paid him a 100mill, thats insane. I would think we would want to trade for an offensive weapon. [/color]

This is where we get into the nitty gritty of what I believe is an inherently flawed offensive system of Cam Cameron. Instead of saying Ray Rice is 35% of the offense and we can't get rid of him, you should be saying why the heck is Ray Rice 35% of the offense. That's not a good statistic, that's a TERRIBLE statistic. Our offense goes through the running back way too much because he gets too many touches in the passing game. Cam calls long developing plays while passing, and if the receivers don't have time to complete their routes or can't get open due to other reasons Flacco has no choice but to check down. Since Cam's arrival we have been using slower receivers who do not fit his system and have trouble beating man on man coverage for issues beyond which I can explain without derailing the topic. This has increased the percentage of necessary check downs and thus artificially inflated Ray Rice's usage. Rice gets a larger number of touches due to this flaw which causes him to be passed to a lot, thus he has a high use percentage. Because of his tendency to do nothing and get all of his production on a big play or two, Rice has a very low percentage of quality touches IMO, but that's a different topic entirely. In closing on this point, I would just say don't blame Flacco for the check downs because Drew Brees had to do the same thing to Tomlinson during his time under this idiot OC. Tomlinson fit the system better than Rice though because he was much more consistent in moving the chains during his prime, but again I digress. [color=#ff0000]I completely agree with what your saying. Im just saying...we rely on this guy to do so much, yea it sucks that we have to but i dont think we can make a RR and cam package deal. Thats how he calls plays and unless he changes or smith blows up consistantly, letting rice go would for sure hinder our offensive production. This is for sure a different topic and in no way do i blame anything on flacco, hes taking whats given to him, im a flacco supporter hardcore. Maybe an example of how losing rice would affect us is looking at KC and when they lost charles. I havent looked up any stats at all, just came to mind on the fly, but they had numerous pieces behind him who they were content with, i doubt it worked out near as well as the year before with him and his production[/color]

Ray Rice is a quality player. Unlike the Lee Evans scenario, where we were attempting to buy a veteran player low on the hope of decent returns, we are giving up a real tangible piece in the trade. It's a fairly safe bet we can get a guy who has produced and will produce in this league for Rice. I also stress the importance of adding draft picks in the deal, which could mitigate any potential loss from the traded person. We're giving up a good player and should get some compensation for it. [color=#ff0000]I was just using Evans as an example of the possibility of getting a player for RR and something happening where we get nothing in return except a roster spot taken up. Im not good with what draft picks are worth, but i would think we could get a 1st rounder for an elite RB wouldnt you? But dont get me wrong, say we do make a trade and pick up something good and pierce becomes the next RR, ill be the first to say i was wrong....[/color]


[/quote]

[The Raven]

I actually want to trade him. We could get some very high picks for him. We probably wouldn't do it this year, but next year I see it as a possibility.

[arnie_uk]

I'd try and get Joe done this year tag rice next year then trade him for a 1st in the top 15 or 20 and then we will come out of the draft with 2 from Wr LT Ilb and FS in the first.

[Hardbaugh]

Boy , I'm glad some of you people aren't the GM.... Trade a player that has earned his next payday through his play but pay the quarterback on the hope that he finally is able to break free from the mediocrity and put in together.

Great plan............................................................................................................................................................................. for finishing last.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1337860651' post='1081748']
Boy , I'm glad some of you people aren't the GM.... Trade a player that has earned his next payday through his play but pay the quarterback on the hope that he finally is able to break free from the mediocrity and put in together.

Great plan............................................................................................................................................................................. for finishing last.
[/quote]

You must have missed the Steelers game, and the playoffs where Rice did [i]absolutely nothing[/i], and Joe carried us to victory/put us in position for victory.

[H8R]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1337860651' post='1081748']
Boy , I'm glad some of you people aren't the GM.... Trade a player that has earned his next payday through his play but pay the quarterback on the hope that he finally is able to break free from the mediocrity and put in together.

Great plan............................................................................................................................................................................. for finishing last.
[/quote]

Right.... A QB that has a career expectancy of 8-10years from this point...vs an undersized RB with a TON of touches already, already more then half of his career is probably over? I'm glad you're not the GM....

I think we should resign Ray, but to say he's more important then Joe in the long term is FOOLISH... A QB is the MOST important player on the field for 10+ year...

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1337860651' post='1081748']
Boy, I'm glad some of you people aren't the GM.... Trade a player that has earned his next payday through his play but pay the quarterback on the hope that he finally is able to break free from the mediocrity and put in together.

Great plan............................................................................................................................................................................. for finishing last.
[/quote]

It would be easier to replace Rice than it would be to get another franchise QB, look at Mojo he was last seasons leading rusher and we all know how far he went without a QB, and I don't even know who the starting HB for the Pats and Saints are.

We have to see what Rice can do without Grubbs before we pay him.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1337860651' post='1081748']
Boy , I'm glad some of you people aren't the GM.... Trade a player that has earned his next payday through his play but pay the quarterback on the hope that he finally is able to break free from the mediocrity and put in together.

Great plan............................................................................................................................................................................. for finishing last.
[/quote]this has nothing to do with flacco, this is about ray rice, the rb position, the amount of money hes rumoured to want, his trade value, the amounts of years he may or may not have left at the top level, our ability to replace him, how his rumoured 10mil could be spent else where etc etc

How does flacco come into this at all....

[dirtybird10]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337865455' post='1081768']
this has nothing to do with flacco, this is about ray rice, the rb position, the amount of money hes rumoured to want, his trade value, the amounts of years he may or may not have left at the top level, our ability to replace him, how his rumoured 10mil could be spent else where etc etc

How does flacco come into this at all....
[/quote]

Only in that you can pay him a whole lot easier when your not giving Rice all that money.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337865455' post='1081768']
this has nothing to do with flacco, this is about ray rice, the rb position, the amount of money hes rumoured to want, his trade value, the amounts of years he may or may not have left at the top level, our ability to replace him, how his rumoured 10mil could be spent else where etc etc

[b]How does flacco come into this at all....[/b]
[/quote]

Some fans still subscribe to the belief that unless Rice is heavily involved, the offense goes nowhere.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1337856373' post='1081741']
I actually want to trade him. We could get some very high picks for him. We probably wouldn't do it this year, but next year I see it as a possibility.
[/quote]

I say just let Rice play out the season on the franchise tag and make him a fair offer during the season after Flacco is signed. We can't put all of our money into Rice and lose Flacco. That's what we did with Yanda and we lost Grubbs. There are a lot of "ifs" going into this season. If Rice has another quality year and if the other two backs don't live up to their potential, then Rice will have much more leverage in the negotiations process. If Rice has a subpar season and the other two backs are ready to start, then we will be faced with the decision to trade Rice or tag him for another season. I hope that we sign him, but this is the NFL (negotiating financial league) where money is the king.

[arnie_uk]

thatsx not what he said though.. he questioning signing joe over ray and threw an insult or two in.

There was no need to bring flacco into it, unless you were saying "i agree because then we can def pay flacco" or i disagree because "joes play will decline if ray goes"

not "Trade a player that has earned his next payday through his play but pay the quarterback on the hope that he finally is able to break free from the mediocrity and put in together."

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1337868606' post='1081789']


Some fans still subscribe to the belief that unless Rice is heavily involved, the offense goes nowhere.
[/quote]

This is only true if Cameron insists on rolling out the vanilla offense and not adjusting to the game situations. Let's try a few multi-receiver sets and find creative ways to use the TEs like we did a few times last season.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1337868951' post='1081794']
This is only true if Cameron insists on rolling out the vanilla offense and not adjusting to the game situations. Let's try a few multi-receiver sets and find creative ways to use the TEs like we did a few times last season.
[/quote]

Cam is vanilla 80% of the time, even when he adjusts. Whatever creative formations or plays we see (usually against inferior competition) disappear into his play-book, never to be seen again.

[-Truth-]

Cedric Benson's production of three straight 1,000 yard seasons is impressive. However, the fact that he's averaged just 3.78 YPC in his 4 years in Cincinnati, with 3 out of the 4 coming in at under a 4.0, makes him seem like more of a quantity over quality producer. Nevermind the fact that he offers practically nothing on passing downs. We'd be giving up possibly the best 3rd down option for one of the worst, without another waiting in the wings. And I'm not sure who's out there on the open market who could fill that role. Sure, Benson wouldn't be the worst option to bring in should a situation like this occur. But with him in the fold, our offense will be even more predictable than it is now. Remember in 2010, when Willis McGahee subbed in, everybody and they momma knew that it was a designed run, and he was often stuffed near the LOS? Imagine that through the entirety of the season. Ugh.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='-Truth-' timestamp='1337870286' post='1081807']
Cedric Benson's production of three straight 1,000 yard seasons is impressive. However, the fact that he's averaged just 3.78 YPC in his 4 years in Cincinnati, with 3 out of the 4 coming in at under a 4.0, makes him seem like more of a quantity over quality producer. Nevermind the fact that he offers practically nothing on passing downs. We'd be giving up possibly the best 3rd down option for one of the worst, without another waiting in the wings. And I'm not sure who's out there on the open market who could fill that role. Sure, Benson wouldn't be the worst option to bring in should a situation like this occur. But with him in the fold, our offense will be even more predictable than it is now. Remember in 2010, when Willis McGahee subbed in, everybody and they momma knew that it was a designed run, and he was often stuffed near the LOS? Imagine that through the entirety of the season. Ugh.
[/quote]

Exactly this. Cedric Benson is the definition of mediocre. There is absolutley nothing about his game that would excite me.

I also want to question the notion that a team would give up multiple high draft picks for Rice, or frankly even a high first round pick. Draft picks are incredibly valuable and any team that traded for Rice would also have to pony up a huge contract. I just find it unlikely there would be a deal out there where the Ravens get equal value for Rice, especially this year when we have zero proven depth behind him.

[sameoldbull]

I like Ray Rice. I definitely do. He is a great player, a great person and he does a lot for the community. But if we can't have Ray Rice and Joe Flacco because of the cap I would rather have Joe Flacco.
As for a trade. Maybe Miami? I know they just drafted Lamar Miller (4th round), but the only runningback they have capable of being a starter would be Reggie Bush. Miami have been rumoured to not resign Jake Long. What about trading for him? We would get a franchise left tackle for a franchise runningback. Please don't kill me. Just a thought.

[The Raven]

[quote name='sameoldbull' timestamp='1337871102' post='1081815']
I like Ray Rice. I definitely do. He is a great player, a great person and he does a lot for the community. But if we can't have Ray Rice and Joe Flacco because of the cap I would rather have Joe Flacco.
As for a trade. Maybe Miami? I know they just drafted Lamar Miller (4th round), but the only runningback they have capable of being a starter would be Reggie Bush. Miami have been rumoured to not resign Jake Long. What about trading for him? We would get a franchise left tackle for a franchise runningback. Please don't kill me. Just a thought.
[/quote]

If we could get Jake Long for Ray Rice I'd dance through my neighborhood naked. I don't think Miami would do that though.