Does Ray Rice Want $10 Million?

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1337608928' post='1080353']


Ricky Williams is 35 years old and had double Rice's YPC against the Patriots. Tell me more about how our run game will drop off significantly if we lose him.
[/quote]

Rice gets the edge over Allen and Pierce simply due to familiarity with the pass progressions, check downs, and blocking schemes. After this year, who knows what direction we will go in. Surely, if Rice isn't signed then opportunity is knocking for the other 2 RBs.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1337608851' post='1080351']


I said nothing close to that...

To further clarify, since it appears it needs to be done, our run game will have very little, if any drop off without Rice. However, the passing game might suffer without Rice.
[/quote]

Let's see how losing Rice will change Cameron's play calling. Run, run, pass to run, pass, pass. Okay, maybe we will need a few more end arounds too.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='usmccharles' timestamp='1337608160' post='1080345']


i disagree, hes still an elite runner. we wont LOSE our run game but it will drop off significantly. I just dont understand how everyone things losing him is no big deal, that the other guys will make up for 2k yards without question. These guys have no games under their belt and i just have a huge issue taking away joes saftey blanket, i know this is a difference of opinions, i consider rice a top 5 rb easily...AP, CJ, foster, MJD? and rice is more of a dual threat than all but foster, you can argue cj for some cases.

Losing suggs isnt as big of deal as rice would be because we have so many great players on defense, on offense we have very limited playmakers.
[/quote]

Losing Rice will eliminate the option of checking down to him after the receivers are covered. Other teams are aware of his ability to run after a short catch and try to stop him. They aren't always successful otherwise he wouldn't have several long TDs under his belt. I think Pierce and Allen will be more run oriented backs. This would take the added dimension of the short pass out of the offense. Of course, who knows what Cameron has up his sleeve this season. Fifty yard passes on 3rd and short? Double end arounds with Smith and Streeter?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='usmccharles' timestamp='1337608160' post='1080345']
i disagree, hes still an elite runner. we wont LOSE our run game but it will drop off significantly. I just dont understand how everyone things losing him is no big deal, that the other guys will make up for 2k yards without question. These guys have no games under their belt and i just have a huge issue taking away joes saftey blanket, i know this is a difference of opinions, i consider rice a top 5 rb easily...AP, CJ, foster, MJD? and rice is more of a dual threat than all but foster, you can argue cj for some cases.

Losing suggs isnt as big of deal as rice would be because we have so many great players on defense, on offense we have very limited playmakers.
[/quote]Ray Rice is far from an elite runner, and your wearing purple glasses if you think otherwise. While being top 5 in pass catching

[rmw10]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1337580371' post='1080308']
Wait till the season starts again and we watch Rice do even better......everyone will love him once again.
And to say his production can be replicated is silly to me. Especially to those who say Pierce, Allen or a RB in the draft next year can match him......they're all unproven as of right now. I don't have the numbers right now but I'm pretty sure Rice has had the most scrimmage yards for RB's the last 4 years...If not I'm positive it's top 3.
I dont get how that could "easily" get replicated...
I understand the average life span of a RB in the NFL, but Rice is not an average RB. He deserves to be paid top RB money. And with the way contracts have gone up lately, as much as I don't like it, thats just the way it is.
Rice has been the heart of our offense the last few years, he deserves top dolla.
[/quote]

He is replaceable. His rushing numbers are slightly above average. One RB can get the same rushing numbers fairly easily. It comes with catching out of the backfield that will be the problem replicating what he's done. Honestly though, I'd rather those numbers not be replicated as I feel Joe is too reliant on that check down pass. Cut the number of receptions in half and spread the rest out to our receivers and we have a pretty potent offense without Rice. Unproven? Tell that to Arian Foster, Priest Holmes, etc. who were all UDFA guys. I'm not saying we can just go out and find a UDFA to become a star, but it shows that finding a RB isn't really that hard. RB is the most replaceable position on the football field. Take the Redskins for example. With their carousel of RBs and pathetic offensive line, they still put up 1600+ yards on the ground during the season. Put those RBs, who were pulled out of nowhere for the most part, and put them behind our OLine, and they could probably push 1800 yards. The Ravens had 1900 yards rushing last year. Again, it's all in the receiving which makes Rice valuable, not his rushing. Realistically however, Rice should not be catching the ball out of the backfield as much as he has been.

Regarding the yards of scrimmage, that's exactly why the Ravens should be hesitant to give him a deal. The guy has been run into the ground so far. It's the same thing that happened with Jamal. The guy gave us a few seasons of fantastic yardage, but he got to his late 20s, early 30s and was done. Rice is heading down that same road with the mileage being put on him.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to extend Rice. I don't think keeping him here for the next 5 years would be a bad thing. I do however think keeping him here for the next 5 years at $10mil is a bad thing. His production will dip for the last couple years on that deal, and we'll be stuck paying big money to a backup, much like we did with McGahee. It's a tough spot to be put in, but you have to look at it from the business side of things.

[arnie_uk]

[b]Foster VS Rice last two years

Baltimore's offensive production[/b] - 2,054 plays| 10,585 total yards| 672 total points.
[b]Rice's total offensive contribution (32 regular season games)[/b] - 738 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 3,842 total yards| 154 total points [22 total TD's including the passing one this year].
[b]Value to offense[/b] - 35.8% of total plays| 36.3% of total yards| 22.91% of total offensive points.

[b]Houston's offensive production[/b] - 2,075 plays| 12,140 total yards| 750 total points.
[b]Foster's total offensive contribution (26 regular season games)[/b] - 724 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 4,061 total yards| 210 total points [30 total TD's].
[b]Value to offense[/b] - 34.89% of total plays| 33.5% of total yards| 28% of total offensive points.

If we were to break it down even further we would see that Rice accounted for 19% of the receiving yards, 63% of the rushes, 67% of the rushing yards, 65% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. Essentially, Ray Rice is 1/3 of the entire offensive production over the past two seasons. When we look at Foster we find that he accounted for 63% of the rushes, 16% of the passing yards, 63% of the rushing yards, 68% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. While Rice has the edge on the ratio of rushing yardage and receiving yards, Foster has more points scored, more rushing yards, and more total yards from scrimmage in 3 less games than Rice. It's fair to say that if Foster had played or received significant snaps in those 3 games he'd be substantially farther ahead than Rice

300 More yards, 20 less plays, 8 More TDs...

[atlravensfan]

I said the same thing in the comments section a lot of guys are saying now and in previous threads. Lol got neg by people who are saying the samethings I said in those threads. Blah blah blah ray rice will he a raven for years to come. Funny how ppl change when those purple glasses come off.

Anyway.....if I am ray rice I say to myself if I play under the tag twice I get 17.7 fully guaranteed. Then I'm 27 and will get the 5 years 45 anyway. That is why I can't see a deal getting done. Thoughts?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1337614797' post='1080384']
I said the same thing in the comments section a lot of guys are saying now and in previous threads. Lol got neg by people who are saying the samethings I said in those threads. Blah blah blah ray rice will he a raven for years to come. Funny how ppl change when those purple glasses come off.

Anyway.....if I am ray rice I say to myself if I play under the tag twice I get 17.7 fully guaranteed. Then I'm 27 and will get the 5 years 45 anyway. That is why I can't see a deal getting done. Thoughts?
[/quote]you would be stupid to give a rb at 27 a 5 yr deal, especially when these last two years hes had over 350 touches, at this rate RR will be done in 4/5 years, while your saying he will have 7 years.

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337615357' post='1080387']
you would be stupid to give a rb at 27 a 5 yr deal, especially when these last two years hes had over 350 touches, at this rate RR will be done in 4/5 years, while your saying he will have 7 years.
[/quote]

Well Arnie the years in the contract don't matter. I was saying the guaranteed money is what counts and if he can get the same or about the same guaranteed money then why sign? Cause you know some GM out there when he is 27 might give him 10 to 15 mil guaranteed.

[bMore Heathen]

Tag him twice and let him walk. I agree he has been great (especially in the passing game) but we can't pay him AND Flacco. We wouldn't be able to field a team capable of winning a championship. We would get 2 more years (which could be 2 of his last good years) and someone else can break the bank on him.

[atlravensfan]

I think what gets lost in all this is shady and Foster play on teams that have pretty dynamic passing attacks. Ray Rice's numbers would be better if heplayed on a team with a better passing attack. Lets not forget this when comparing his stats. Neither of the other two backs are asked to do what RR is asked. Run run pass. Not to mention McCoy put up great numbers in a bad division during the regualr season and Foster had AJ and Matt Scaub. Not trying to turn this into a Flacco debate but we as fans have to take other things into account

[The Raven]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1337617239' post='1080394']
I think what gets lost in all this is shady and Foster play on teams that have pretty dynamic passing attacks. Ray Rice's numbers would be better if heplayed on a team with a better passing attack. Lets not forget this when comparing his stats. Neither of the other two backs are asked to do what RR is asked. Run run pass. Not to mention McCoy put up great numbers in a bad division during the regualr season and Foster had AJ and Matt Scaub. Not trying to turn this into a Flacco debate but we as fans have to take other things into account
[/quote]

you forget that if Rice had a better surrounding cast he wouldn't lead his team in receptions. Put him on the Eagles or Texans and he doesn't have that many receptions. Period.

[Blex64]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337597205' post='1080326']
i wouldnt say that, imo McCoy is a better runner than rice. RR is lucky if hes top 10 RUNNER, its his pass catching that sets him over the top, but again, is he actually a better pass catcher or is his numbers inflated by the amount of catches he gets?

I think we we recplaced him with a better runner, as well as a very pass catching RB that can pass block, you wont see any if much drop in production from the RB slot, just that it would be running back by committee imo
[/quote]

McCoy has a whopping one year of decent production. Excuse me if I'm not sold on that.

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337614639' post='1080383']
[b]Foster VS Rice last two years

Baltimore's offensive production[/b] - 2,054 plays| 10,585 total yards| 672 total points.
[b]Rice's total offensive contribution (32 regular season games)[/b] - 738 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 3,842 total yards| 154 total points [22 total TD's including the passing one this year].
[b]Value to offense[/b] - 35.8% of total plays| 36.3% of total yards| 22.91% of total offensive points.

[b]Houston's offensive production[/b] - 2,075 plays| 12,140 total yards| 750 total points.
[b]Foster's total offensive contribution (26 regular season games)[/b] - 724 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 4,061 total yards| 210 total points [30 total TD's].
[b]Value to offense[/b] - 34.89% of total plays| 33.5% of total yards| 28% of total offensive points.

If we were to break it down even further we would see that Rice accounted for 19% of the receiving yards, 63% of the rushes, 67% of the rushing yards, 65% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. Essentially, Ray Rice is 1/3 of the entire offensive production over the past two seasons. When we look at Foster we find that he accounted for 63% of the rushes, 16% of the passing yards, 63% of the rushing yards, 68% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. While Rice has the edge on the ratio of rushing yardage and receiving yards, Foster has more points scored, more rushing yards, and more total yards from scrimmage in 3 less games than Rice. It's fair to say that if Foster had played or received significant snaps in those 3 games he'd be substantially farther ahead than Rice

300 More yards, 20 less plays, 8 More TDs...
[/quote]

Do it over 3 years.

[CapoRocky]

Pay him $8M and let him get back out there. End of story!

[BmoreRavens732]

Lol

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1337617339' post='1080395']


you forget that if Rice had a better surrounding cast he wouldn't lead his team in receptions. Put him on the Eagles or Texans and he doesn't have that many receptions. Period.
[/quote]

Doesn't matter if he lead his team or not. I'm just saying that in his defense he is asked to carry the offense at times. So I can see why he may be asking for more money because he is the focal point of the offense where shady and McCoy compliment it.

I'm only speculating where is agent maybe coming from. Plus the ravens have gotten away with not having to really pay a player on the offense too.

So you kinda said something that wasn't relevant because he doesn't have the supporting cast.

Lol at Period. Um yeah slow down there tiger.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1337623774' post='1080447']
Doesn't matter if he lead his team or not. I'm just saying that in his defense he is asked to carry the offense at times. So I can see why he may be asking for more money because he is the focal point of the offense where shady and McCoy compliment it.

I'm only speculating where is agent maybe coming from. Plus the ravens have gotten away with not having to really pay a player on the offense too.

So you kinda said something that wasn't relevant because he doesn't have the supporting cast.

Lol at Period. Um yeah slow down there tiger.
[/quote]

He's right, if he were on Houston and Philadelphia and only asked to carry the rock he wouldn't be worth near as much simply because he's not as good a runner as he is a receiver. So in terms of managing resources, he's not worth what he's asking.

[Ed_Reed20]

I read this in a Rotoworld fantasy article:

[quote]
Playoffs included, Rice has averaged over 400 touches per over the past three seasons. While that heavy workload has led directly to a pair of top-five fantasy finishes, it doesn’t bode well for his legs going forward.
[/quote]

At this point, I'm actually hoping a deal doesn't get done before June's mini-camps and the young RBs see more reps.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1337617532' post='1080397']
McCoy has a whopping one year of decent production. Excuse me if I'm not sold on that.



Do it over 3 years.
[/quote]Foster only played 6 games three years ago.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1337597540' post='1080327']
If we lose Rice, I'm not concerned at all about the run game. We'll probably improve without him. It's the passing game that worries me.
[/quote]

This, Rice is one of the worst HB's in the league at forcing missed tackles especially between the tackles, the ones you will see are often sporadic open field splash plays, he can't run over people or shake tackles when he has no space.

His receptions will be a lot harder to replace.

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1337624345' post='1080461']


He's right, if he were on Houston and Philadelphia and only asked to carry the rock he wouldn't be worth near as much simply because he's not as good a runner as he is a receiver. So in terms of managing resources, he's not worth what he's asking.
[/quote]

Well yeah in those terms. Yes but if I'm Rays agent that's the side I'm coming from if they try to say that. His point wasn't right because he doesn't play for those teams.

That's like saying ed reed in his prime wasn't worth the money cause he wasn't a box safety. No that's not his game but for what the ravens asked of him he was great at. So for the ravens that was his value and may not have been the same on another team

BTW no running back is worth that money lol.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1337616549' post='1080388']
Well Arnie the years in the contract don't matter. I was saying the guaranteed money is what counts and if he can get the same or about the same guaranteed money then why sign? Cause you know some GM out there when he is 27 might give him 10 to 15 mil guaranteed.
[/quote]im not talking about money, no team in 2 years time will give him a 5 yr deal. in 2 years time, if he was on the market, he will be going the way of all older runners, 1/2 year deals here and there, not because of production but because of age and workload.

Same as MJD, id be very surprised if jax give him a new deal anywere near what these guys got because very soon his body will shut down with the workload he has got.

Imo, if RR doesnt get a longterm deal now, and got tagged next year again, he wouldnt get another long term deal. He wont be leaving much money on the table if he turns down a deal we give him and hes tagged next year, because as you said its almost 18 mil for the two years, what he would be leaving is job security and peace of mind he has money made if god forbid he got injured. If i was in his shoes, as a running back with his workload, and potential for my play to just hit a decline in a few seasons, id take a 5 yr 40mil deal, 20-25 guarenteed any day of the week and twice on sunday rather than being greedy looking for a 5yr 50, or 55 mil deal.

Making that amount of money, does 10 mil over 5 yrs mean that much to a player he will risk it all? ie injury? Now granted, he could be playing hard ball, when him and his agent have decided (behind closed doors obviously) come the deadline they will sign a deal similar to foster/mccoy if its there and so they have every right to try and get as much as possible in the mean time, but if he truly wont sign a deal for less than 5 50 or whatever, id be dumbfounded, its too much of a risk, in one of the most trying positions in the league

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1337617532' post='1080397']
McCoy has a whopping one year of decent production. Excuse me if I'm not sold on that.



Do it over 3 years.
[/quote]

Did you even see McCoy play last year? He was one of the most explosive weapons in the NFL.

Give Foster and McCoy Rice's touches and they'll produce the same if not better.

As for "Do it over 3 years" - Rice has taken a lot more of a beating than either Foster or McCoy meaning his prime window's smaller.

I love Rice, but asking for anything more than McCoy or Foster got is a complete and utter joke.

[codizzle]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1337625388' post='1080469']



His receptions will be a lot harder to replace.
[/quote]
Pitta and Dickson say hi.... Hopefully

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1337625591' post='1080472']
Well yeah in those terms. Yes but if I'm Rays agent that's the side I'm coming from if they try to say that. His point wasn't right because he doesn't play for those teams.

That's like saying ed reed in his prime wasn't worth the money cause he wasn't a box safety. No that's not his game but for what the ravens asked of him he was great at. So for the ravens that was his value and may not have been the same on another team

BTW no running back is worth that money lol.
[/quote]Ed reed wouldnt have been a in box saftey on any team, so that point is moot. If RR goes to any other team, his receptions will probably half, and with that his yards from scrimmage would dramatically fall. Its his pass catching ability and our scheme sets him apart.

If he was in any other team he wouldnt even be looking at a McCoy, Foster deal because he just isnt a top runner. Is his pass catching even that spectacular or is it all amplified by the NUMBER of catches he gets, that should be replicated by a RB that can catch a ball...

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337625728' post='1080474']
im not talking about money, no team in 2 years time will give him a 5 yr deal. in 2 years time, if he was on the market, he will be going the way of all older runners, 1/2 year deals here and there, not because of production but because of age and workload.

Same as MJD, id be very surprised if jax give him a new deal anywere near what these guys got because very soon his body will shut down with the workload he has got.

Imo, if RR doesnt get a longterm deal now, and got tagged next year again, he wouldnt get another long term deal. He wont be leaving much money on the table if he turns down a deal we give him and hes tagged next year, because as you said its almost 18 mil for the two years, what he would be leaving is job security and peace of mind he has money made if god forbid he got injured. If i was in his shoes, as a running back with his workload, and potential for my play to just hit a decline in a few seasons, id take a 5 yr 40mil deal, 20-25 guarenteed any day of the week and twice on sunday rather than being greedy looking for a 5yr 50, or 55 mil deal.

Making that amount of money, does 10 mil over 5 yrs mean that much to a player he will risk it all? ie injury? Now granted, he could be playing hard ball, when him and his agent have decided (behind closed doors obviously) come the deadline they will sign a deal similar to foster/mccoy if its there and so they have every right to try and get as much as possible in the mean time, but if he truly wont sign a deal for less than 5 50 or whatever, id be dumbfounded, its too much of a risk, in one of the most trying positions in the league
[/quote]

Dude don't Yu wish sometimes you could be a fly on the wall. It would help to separate the BS from the truth. For all we know the ravens could have offered him 23.5 and he wants 26. Its funny cause with commercials and endorsements he will make the money up easily lol.

[arnie_uk]

Foster Recieving Career

35 games 127 rec 1314 yard goodd for a 10.3 ave, 4TDs, 16 20+ yds plays, 4 40+ yds, 4 TDs, 57 1st downs

RR

61 games, 250 rec 2235 yds, 8.9 ave, 21 20+ yds, 6 40+ yds, 5 Tds, 91 1st downs


So even there its plain to see foster is more explosive in passing game than rice

[ravens rule]

Why do guys think that you can just replace him like its nothing. Ray is different than your average RB and brings more to table . He had a good season with a wack run blocking line.

[Alexir]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337613818' post='1080378']
Ray Rice is far from an elite runner, and your wearing purple glasses if you think otherwise. While being top 5 in pass catching
[/quote]

Oh I use that purple glasses line when describing Flacco! This is amusing to read.

Rice is not an elite runner IMO as well, he is a great receiver out the backfield though. Think sproles with muscle

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1337625591' post='1080472']
BTW no running back is worth that money lol.
[/quote]

Yeah, I think that's the big issue. I don't mind Ray Rice making a lot of money, I just don't like seeing players overpaid. For instance, at this point Boldin is over paid. Nothing against the players, I want them to be successful, but with the salary cap the best way to win is to underpay players in a way.

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337626350' post='1080485']
Foster Recieving Career

35 games 127 rec 1314 yard goodd for a 10.3 ave, 4TDs, 16 20+ yds plays, 4 40+ yds, 4 TDs, 57 1st downs

RR

61 games, 250 rec 2235 yds, 8.9 ave, 21 20+ yds, 6 40+ yds, 5 Tds, 91 1st downs


So even there its plain to see foster is more explosive in passing game than rice
[/quote]

That's not fair, that field is nice and stretched and open for foster. Teams plan around rice out of the backfield, with foster you have to take your chances with it.