McCoy gets paid

[arnie_uk]

5 years, $45 million with $20.765 million in guarantees

Arian Foster was 5yrs, $43.5 million contract, including $20.75 million guaranteed.

If we cant get RR to sign at around this level soon then he wont be a raven yr after next. his market is firmly set

[Gordo52]

He should get same contract as McCoy. I think it would be pperfect for him.

[JO_75]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337294123' post='1079174']
5 years, $45 million with $20.765 million in guarantees

Arian Foster was 5yrs, $43.5 million contract, including $20.75 million guaranteed.

If we cant get RR to sign at around this level soon then he wont be a raven yr after next. his market is firmly set
[/quote]

Poor McCoy, 5 years of no Super Bowl. He could have tested the market, got more and signed with a team that could have gave him a shot at getting a ring.

As for Rice, he should get something similar to McCoy or Foster or something in between.

[Clutch Ravens]

Rice just lost all leverage. Both Foster and McCoy are better pure runners and, arguably, better all-round backs.

They've just set the CEILING of Rice's contract. If Rice wants more than either of them he can walk.

[GrimCoconut]

Rice and his agent have lost all leverage now. After Foster and McCoy there is only one other RB out there in Rice's league and that is Forte. If Forte gets his deal done and it is around or less than McCoy and Foster's then Rice will have no leverage. McCoy is a better back than Rice. That is a fact. If Rice does not take a deal similar to these two deals then he and his agent are insanely stupid.

I suspect the deal gets done. I see it happening close to the deadline similar to Ngata's. France and Rice have already lost leverage in terms of comparisons. The longer Rice and his agent hold out the less leverage they actually have.

[T3hRaven]

Word on the street is Rice wants AP type money. McCoy and Foster both settled for contracts that, while lucrative, will only slightly harm their teams. I'm glad more people are on board with letting Rice walk if he wants more than he's worth now.

[BloodRaven]

I think we really need to evaluate Allen and Pierce and give them more snaps and the entire pre-season.

[Sizzlebshu]

Rice and his agent really havent lost any leverage. Yes foster and mccoy took lesser contracts, but theres a huge difference between Rice and them. Rice is our offense. Plain and simple. As much faith as I have in our team, our offense was stagnant enough as it is with Rice. Without him, god help us. Rice will get a bigger deal than these two just cause of how important he is to our offense. You can make the argument that while foster and mccoy were great for their teams offenses, they werent integral

Mccoy - this is a passing team with a plethora of passing weapons. Desean Jackson, Maclin, Vick etc... While McCoy would be missed, the Eagles want to throw not run to begin with. Andy Reid has even stated he wants to use McCoy less and that they overworked him this year.

Foster - best run o line in the league, a team with great defense and Andre Johnson, and on top of all of that - that scheme is so good Ben Tate could had 1000 yards so losing foster wouldnt only hurt marginally because his production is replaceable.

With the Ravens, Rice is not replaceable. Our o line was okay this year, but Rice made a lot of plays out of nothing in both the passing and running game. He had a career year and accounted for almost half of our total offense. While this may make Rice more willing to lower his asking price, he still has the leverage to hold his ground easily.

[arnie_uk]

McCoy still delivered when vick was out injured..

Foster, maybe ben tate is a very good running back, ever think of that?

And now onto this notion that RR can get more moeny because he is our offense.

This is the two players production over the last two years..

[b]Baltimore's offensive production[/b] - 2,054 plays| 10,585 total yards| 672 total points.
[b]Rice's total offensive contribution (32 regular season games)[/b] - 738 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 3,842 total yards| 154 total points [22 total TD's including the passing one this year].
[b]Value to offense[/b] - 35.8% of total plays| 36.3% of total yards| 22.91% of total offensive points.

[b]Houston's offensive production[/b] - 2,075 plays| 12,140 total yards| 750 total points.
[b]Foster's total offensive contribution (26 regular season games)[/b] - 724 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 4,061 total yards| 210 total points [30 total TD's].
[b]Value to offense[/b] - 34.89% of total plays| 33.5% of total yards| 28% of total offensive points.

If we were to break it down even further we would see that Rice accounted for 19% of the receiving yards, 63% of the rushes, 67% of the rushing yards, 65% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. Essentially, Ray Rice is 1/3 of the entire offensive production over the past two seasons. When we look at Foster we find that he accounted for 63% of the rushes, 16% of the passing yards, 63% of the rushing yards, 68% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. While Rice has the edge on the ratio of rushing yardage and receiving yards, Foster has more points scored, more rushing yards, and more total yards from scrimmage in 3 less games than Rice. It's fair to say that if Foster had played or received significant snaps in those 3 games he'd be substantially farther ahead than Rice.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337614517' post='1080381']
McCoy still delivered when vick was out injured..

Foster, maybe ben tate is a very good running back, ever think of that?

And now onto this notion that RR can get more moeny because he is our offense.

This is the two players production over the last two years..

[b]Baltimore's offensive production[/b] - 2,054 plays| 10,585 total yards| 672 total points.
[b]Rice's total offensive contribution (32 regular season games)[/b] - 738 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 3,842 total yards| 154 total points [22 total TD's including the passing one this year].
[b]Value to offense[/b] - 35.8% of total plays| 36.3% of total yards| 22.91% of total offensive points.

[b]Houston's offensive production[/b] - 2,075 plays| 12,140 total yards| 750 total points.
[b]Foster's total offensive contribution (26 regular season games)[/b] - 724 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 4,061 total yards| 210 total points [30 total TD's].
[b]Value to offense[/b] - 34.89% of total plays| 33.5% of total yards| 28% of total offensive points.

If we were to break it down even further we would see that Rice accounted for 19% of the receiving yards, 63% of the rushes, 67% of the rushing yards, 65% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. Essentially, Ray Rice is 1/3 of the entire offensive production over the past two seasons. When we look at Foster we find that he accounted for 63% of the rushes, 16% of the passing yards, 63% of the rushing yards, 68% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. While Rice has the edge on the ratio of rushing yardage and receiving yards, Foster has more points scored, more rushing yards, and more total yards from scrimmage in 3 less games than Rice. It's fair to say that if Foster had played or received significant snaps in those 3 games he'd be substantially farther ahead than Rice.
[/quote]

Never said McCoy didnt produce just that Reid wants to use him less and lean on the passing game

As for your stats, you have to remember a key difference. Rice plays in Afc North. So of course his rushing and passing production will be less than foster who plays in the AFC South with the Jags, Colts, and Titans. If degree of difficulty isnt accounted for than the stats dont tell the whole story. Playing Pitt and Cincy 2x a year (i wont say nothing about cleveland cause they got gashed hard) is obv going to deflate Rice's stats compared to Foster who got the got the Colts and Titans, and Jags 2x a year. Im not taking anything away from Foster or your stats, but just challenging your interpretation of them. So if its essentially a push between Foster and Rice, but Rice's degree of difficulty is significantly higher than one could argue Rice is the better back. Also just to factor this in, defenses generally are geared towards stopping Rice as he is our main threat so they hone in on him. Foster at least has Andre Johnson to take pressure off of him and free up the box a little not to mention his amazing o line, while ours struggled at time, but we wont factor that in because that would make calculations unnecessarily complicated.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1337697414' post='1080842']
Never said McCoy didnt produce just that Reid wants to use him less and lean on the passing game

As for your stats, you have to remember a key difference. Rice plays in Afc North. So of course his rushing and passing production will be less than foster who plays in the AFC South with the Jags, Colts, and Titans. If degree of difficulty isnt accounted for than the stats dont tell the whole story. Playing Pitt and Cincy 2x a year (i wont say nothing about cleveland cause they got gashed hard) is obv going to deflate Rice's stats compared to Foster who got the got the Colts and Titans, and Jags 2x a year. Im not taking anything away from Foster or your stats, but just challenging your interpretation of them. So if its essentially a push between Foster and Rice, but Rice's degree of difficulty is significantly higher than one could argue Rice is the better back. Also just to factor this in, defenses generally are geared towards stopping Rice as he is our main threat so they hone in on him. Foster at least has Andre Johnson to take pressure off of him and free up the box a little not to mention his amazing o line, while ours struggled at time, but we wont factor that in because that would make calculations unnecessarily complicated.
[/quote]foster still done it when AJ was out and with yates as a QB so that point is moot, he can get it down no matter the circumstances, however Oline and opposition is relevant, but we went into the playoff game with a great defense and a gameplan of stopping foster and tbh he tore us to shreads, so again, when hes clearly gameplanned against, by a great d, hes shown he can get it down as well. He also had 155 yards against Pitts, the game Aj got injured, rice played pitts twice and had less yards total. Foster had 285 yards in two games in the play offs agsint us and cinci, RR had 127 against NE and Houston... Foster faced the better Ds and he was the focus with Yates at QB.

So again, that point can be counter acted, but its worth noting yes

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337698162' post='1080855']
foster still done it when AJ was out and with yates as a QB so that point is moot, he can get it down no matter the circumstances, however Oline and opposition is relevant, but we went into the playoff game with a great defense and a gameplan of stopping foster and tbh he tore us to shreads, so again, when hes clearly gameplanned against, by a great d, hes shown he can get it down as well. He also had 155 yards against Pitts, the game Aj got injured, rice played pitts twice and had less yards total. Foster had 285 yards in two games in the play offs agsint us and cinci, RR had 127 against NE and Houston... Foster faced the better Ds and he was the focus with Yates at QB.

So again, that point can be counter acted, but its worth noting yes
[/quote]
yates as qb is not a moot point at all. It gives foster extra attempts 1. Two AJ was back for playoffs and I believe he scored against us. Also during the regular season, Foster didnt get it done against us and Rice tore them up so that point about the playoffs is moot. Our defense didnt execute that week and vice versa in the regular season. Also pitt D was seriously suspect in the beginning of the season. I mean they almost lost to the colts with painter for god's sake.

Edit: I take it back. AJ didnt score but he had 8 receptions for 111 yards. Like I said our defense didnt give up points, but we definitley didnt execute well that day. Idk who we were trying to stop tbh but we failed to stop either one which is a prob.

In that game Foster had 27 carries for 132 and yates was 17/35 for 184 and 3 ints. As much as I say Foster was the bigger threat, I think we attempted to really cut them off from the pass given that we had a lead early in that game and they were down 2 scores so running the ball against us probably was something wed rather take as itd kill the clock.

Edit: Foster had 278 carries this season for 13 games essentially. Rice had 291 for 16. The per game averages are roughly 21 for Foster and 18 for Rice. which comes out to an extra 13.2 yds a game for Foster or so. So Rice playing 3 more games basically got a backup game's worth of carries over foster in total, but Foster average about 3 more per game.

Just to throw this out there Rice was a 2nd round pick and has been durable all season in football's toughest run division. Foster was an undrafted free agent and hasnt been as durable. While I dont count the durability to much against Foster its something Rice has that Foster doesnt. Rice is obv gonna want more as a second round pick who outplayed his contact, than Foster who will be more appreciative towards the team that took him after he wasnt drafted. That not a character flaw on Rice, but Rice has always been talented and it was recognized vs Foster is just grateful to have been drafted and owes the team a degree of loyalty for that. Foster sorta owed the Texans, while Rice was an even trade for off. The Ravens took him and he did what he was suppose to do. Both sides of the bargain were kept.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1337698542' post='1080860']
yates as qb is not a moot point at all. It gives foster extra attempts 1. Two AJ was back for playoffs and I believe he scored against us. Also during the regular season, Foster didnt get it done against us and Rice tore them up so that point about the playoffs is moot. Our defense didnt execute that week and vice versa in the regular season. Also pitt D was seriously suspect in the beginning of the season. I mean they almost lost to the colts with painter for god's sake.

Edit: I take it back. AJ didnt score but he had 8 receptions for 111 yards. Like I said our defense didnt give up points, but we definitley didnt execute well that day. Idk who we were trying to stop tbh but we failed to stop either one which is a prob.

In that game Foster had 27 carries for 132 and yates was 17/35 for 184 and 3 ints. As much as I say Foster was the bigger threat, I think we attempted to really cut them off from the pass given that we had a lead early in that game and they were down 2 scores so running the ball against us probably was something wed rather take as itd kill the clock.

Edit: Foster had 278 carries this season for 13 games essentially. Rice had 291 for 16. The per game averages are roughly 21 for Foster and 18 for Rice. which comes out to an extra 13.2 yds a game for Foster or so. So Rice playing 3 more games basically got a backup game's worth of carries over foster in total, but Foster average about 3 more per game.

Just to throw this out there Rice was a 2nd round pick and has been durable all season in football's toughest run division. Foster was an undrafted free agent and hasnt been as durable. While I dont count the durability to much against Foster its something Rice has that Foster doesnt. Rice is obv gonna want more as a second round pick who outplayed his contact, than Foster who will be more appreciative towards the team that took him after he wasnt drafted. That not a character flaw on Rice, but Rice has always been talented and it was recognized vs Foster is just grateful to have been drafted and owes the team a degree of loyalty for that. Foster sorta owed the Texans, while Rice was an even trade for off. The Ravens took him and he did what he was suppose to do. Both sides of the bargain were kept.
[/quote]its is moot compared to what you said, you said foster has AJ to take pressure off him, and i pointed out clearly Foster can still preform without a QB and no.1 WR, so that isnt an excuse, its fact.

In the first game foster still had over 100 total yards, thats still good going against our D, again proving he can play against better defenses..

how can you even argue foster cant play against good defenses and without AJ because thats what you are essentially doing

[arnie_uk]

btw im sort of repeating myself in this thread and the one in ravens talk, so finish the convo up there where its more in depth

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1337702811' post='1080908']
its is moot compared to what you said, you said foster has AJ to take pressure off him, and i pointed out clearly Foster can still preform without a QB and no.1 WR, so that isnt an excuse, its fact.

In the first game foster still had over 100 total yards, thats still good going against our D, again proving he can play against better defenses..

how can you even argue foster cant play against good defenses and without AJ because thats what you are essentially doing
[/quote]
Thats not what I suggested at all, You interpreted that. Im just sayin Foster has much more to work with than Rice does which makes his job easier. That doesnt mean its easy, or that he cant get the job done without them, but it does allow him to realize his talents fully more easily than Rice. Easier schedule, better more consistent o line, more carries, not getting screwed by the OC (Cameron 5 carries one game, 10 the next).

Never suggested that Foster couldnt play against good D's. That'd be retarded, but lets look who he played after AJ got hurt.

Baltimore - we shut him down rushing wise and limited him passing wise - but still an okay game
Oakland - finished 500
Titans - again a team that finished 500
Jax - good D
Cleveland - garbage
Tampa - garbage
Jax - good D
ATL -
Bengals - good D
Panthers - easy
Colts - easy
Titans - 500

So he played a total of 2 teams with good defenses after AJ was hurt. Jax and the Bengals. Comparing that to Rice who for a 4 week stretch got the steelers, seahawks, 49ers, and the bengals. He also got screwed in Jax by Cameron. Screwed in the chargers game. Screwed in Seattle. Before that he got houston the jets the steelers. Its not even fair to use stats to compare them when the schedules are like this. Probs with the o line when grubbs was hurt. Despite all of this Rice had a career year rushing with 1300+ yds and 700 yds receiving on 79 receptions. I cant fathom how you think despite all of those factors Rice has no leverage. You can even say Rice played fully about as many games as Foster considering he got 5-10 carries in two or 3 games due to Cameron deciding to air the ball out.

Foster will always put up better numbers than Rice (barring his o line is okay this year and not screwed). That doesnt mean though that Foster is significantly better than Rice. In this case it means that Foster is in a better position to succeed that Rice is. Id like to see Foster's numbers with this o line, Cameron and facing top 5 rushing defenses all year. But to say that Rice shouldnt be asking for more than Foster when he does more work with less options is messed up and has more going against him than Foster does isnt fair.

Again not saying that Foster cant play in those conditions, but given his current setup he is in a better position to fully utilize and realize his talents than Rice is currently.

[Sizzlebshu]

Also forgot to mention, Rice's value to the franchise factors into this. The franchise loses out if rice isnt resigned. No more Ray Rice etc...

[Passepartout]

Well McCoy five years of no ring but a good payday. He needs help. That's all! Plain and simple. No one football player can do it alone.

[tigerave]

Shady Mccoy got 45Mil,20 guaranteed for a 5 yr.Hes young and still no SB ring.Ray Rice should get equal but no more.