Flacco At No.74

[codizzle]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336671675' post='1075731']


Point taken, thanks for taking the time to reply.

The FO isn't going to invest another high pick at this time in a QB. Flacco has shown some improvement in his time with the organization... I'm in the boat that I'd love to see him take the next step and win multiple championships and get his name up the leaderboard when I view passing stats. Heck throw for 30 TD's or Pass for 4,000 yards in this pass happy league, quit being amongst the league leaders at the position at putting the ball on the ground....

My definition of a franchise quarterback is the organization takes a big step back without that guy.. I don't think the front office would have a hard time replacing Flacco's numbers at all.. Flacco hasn't shown to this point he's that guy. Here's hoping he does it next season .
[/quote]
U sound like u know what you're talking about but then at the same time this is what u say...

Unless flacco was replaced with the few elite qb's that are obviously better than him, the team would definitely take a huge step back if we lost him.
That's so completely obvious it's not even funny

[flynismo]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336671675' post='1075731']
My definition of a franchise quarterback is the organization takes a big step back without that guy.. I don't think the front office would have a hard time replacing Flacco's numbers at all.. Flacco hasn't shown to this point he's that guy. Here's hoping he does it next season .
[/quote]

Well, hate to bust your bubble, but the FO has repeatedly said that Flacco IS our guy. So has Ray (both Rays).

So that leads me to the obvious question. If the front office could easily replace Flacco, why haven't they already?

[akacrow]

We throw the ball, Joe threw the ball 4 less times a game than Tom Brady. If Joe would have had Bradys completion percentage he would have had 4600 yards. Our offense left passing yards on the field. The largest disparity in production was in completions over 20 yards. With roughly 23% at that distance. Comparitively Brees and Rodgers complete at least 50% over 20.

[tctony]

Whats the issue? He moved up 16 spots from last year.

We know what we have with Joe (a damn good QB), so lets quit crying about it. People have no choice but to respect us, and its gonna stay that way for a while.

[BmoreRavens732]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1336659597' post='1075573']


the Flacco hate (from the media talking heads) is insane!

Flacco is a very polarizing individual in the eyes of the media and fans. on one hand, "they" (media cats) may wanna give him his props for all that he has done as a QB in his first 4 years in the league. and then on the other hand...they refrain from giving him too much credit because of our awesome Ravens defense anchored by the great Ray Lewis and Ed Reed that has been in place for years now! go figure! sooo, IF the Ravens lose...Flacco automatically gets the blame as the QB. then we hear chants of "he sucks!" or "he's trash!" or "Flacco is garbage!" etc. but then, IF the Ravens win, it is NOT because of Flacco (in the media's eyes) but because of the Ravens defense bailing him out! sooo, no matter what happens...Flacco can't seem to catch a break! and that's a damn shame!

~Mili
[/quote]cant be said any better!!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='akacrow' timestamp='1336677067' post='1075800']
We throw the ball, Joe threw the ball 4 less times a game than Tom Brady. If Joe would have had Bradys completion percentage he would have had 4600 yards. Our offense left passing yards on the field. The largest disparity in production was in completions over 20 yards. With roughly 23% at that distance. Comparitively Brees and Rodgers complete at least 50% over 20.
[/quote]

Brees and Rodgers didn't complete passes more efficiently down-field in a vacuum. Both had some of the best field-stretching targets in the game in guys like Graham, Nelson, Jennings, Finley, Colston, Henderson and Meachem. Meanwhile, the only receiver Joe had for most of the season that was a consistent deep threat was Torrey.

On top of that, both Brees and Rodgers play in schemes that free up of their receivers far more than anything in Cam's play-book.

Both of them throw amazing deep passes. But we've seen Joe routinely throw equally good deep passes throughout his career. He's had more than his fair share of inaccurate throws as well, but the bigger difference, in my opinion, is the relative lack of true vertical threats.

[akacrow]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1336677934' post='1075809']
Brees and Rodgers didn't complete passes more efficiently down-field in a vacuum. Both of them had some of the best field-stretching targets in the game with guys like Graham, Nelson, Jennings, Finley, Colston, Henderson and Meachem. Meanwhile, the only receiver Joe had for most of the season that was a consistent deep threat was Torrey.

On top of that, both Brees and Rodgers play in schemes that free up of their receivers far more than anything in Cam's play-book.

Both of them throw amazing deep passes. But we've seen Joe routinely equally good passes throughout his career. He's had more than his fair share of inaccurate throws. But the bigger difference in my opinion is the relative lack of true vertical threats.
[/quote]

The entire offenses QB, WRs and scheme contributed to those numbers. I did write that our Offense left a lot of yards on the field, not just Joe. Joes completion % was much better with Mason than Torrey. @ 70% completion with Mase and 50% with Torrey, on the other hand Torrey was averaging 17 YPC compared to Mase at 13 YPC. Therefore thier yardage was similar.

Drops were only a bit higher this season, they did not make as big an impact in yardage, although drops at inopportune times will stall drives, among other things...

I agree to a point that Brees and Rodgers have a more complete WR corp, I would say, especially in Greenbays case, a veteran WR corp. Players who have played in the system since Favre. I believe our offense simply needs time together, cohesion between a QB and WR corp and their time in a specific system is wildly underestimated.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='akacrow' timestamp='1336678910' post='1075813']
The entire offenses QB, WRs and scheme contributed to those numbers. I did write that our Offense left a lot of yards on the field, not just Joe. Joes completion % was much better with Mason than Torrey. @ 70% completion with Mase and 50% with Torrey, on the other hand Torrey was averaging 17 YPC compared to Mase at 13 YPC. Therefore thier yardage was similar.

Drops were only a bit higher this season, they did not make as big an impact in yardage, although drops at inopportune times will stall drives, among other things...

I agree to a point that Brees and Rodgers have a more complete WR corp, I would say, especially in Greenbays case, a veteran WR corp. Players who have played in the system since Favre. I believe our offense simply needs time together, cohesion between a QB and WR corp and their time in a specific system is wildly underestimated.
[/quote]

Not surprised that Joe's completion percentage was higher throwing to Mase. The majority of their hookups came on comebacks and curls.

Agreed on the drops. They came at the worst times, but the offense didn't suffer from as many as people like to imply.

Couldn't agree more with your last paragraph.

[admartian]

[quote name='atljbo' timestamp='1336623153' post='1075447']
This year stats/play was no where near equal.. Just saying


I think that last remark is a stretch.... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO one has Sanchez over Flacco right now... In the past Sanchez was greatly over rated... But now... No one says Sanchez looks good or says Flacco looks horrible... As a Raven fan you have to admit.. Flacco production should be higher.... As a Falcon fan i can say Ryan has to step it up in the playoffs.. No excuses.

I feel like Sanchez and Flacco is blessed with the same blessing and Curse... Im not comparing the 2.. Flacco is way better then Sanchez.. Just saying the situations... The Blessing is.. With the Defense they have,... They have to just play par to get by.. They can have horrible games and wins... Flacco can just go play ... The Curse is with a D like that.. unless you look great in a big game and your D look bad.. The QB will never get as much props fopr the great things they do unless they win a championship... Go back to big ben first championship.. He didnt fully get credit because he was able to have a horrible game and win because of that D... He start getting that topish respect when he balled out even/ won them big games even when the D looked bad..


It sucks but its the blessing and the curse... Atleast you know you will have a chance to always be in the hunt
[/quote]Fully understand what you're saying.

I think part of it also is your OC is more open with the playbook to Matt. While we have who have...

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

I have to admit I'm surprised that he went up the list but really happy for the guy. Recognition from your peers is the highest form of respect so at least he knows he's earning respect where it counts most.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='PWNEDbyDEANO' timestamp='1336682567' post='1075863']
I have to admit I'm surprised that he went up the list but really happy for the guy. Recognition from your peers is the highest form of respect so at least he knows he's earning respect where it counts most.
[/quote]

I agree. These are the guys who play the game every year. They're down there on the field. They know who is coming to play and who isn't. No matter what other fans say or Jamie Dukes might say, Joe should feel good to be earning the respect of the men who put the pads on and go to war out there.

Now, let's get Reed a ring, Lewis another one and Joe a SB MVP so Dukes can shove it lol

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='codizzle' timestamp='1336675382' post='1075781']
U sound like u know what you're talking about but then at the same time this is what u say...

Unless flacco was replaced with the few elite qb's that are obviously better than him, the team would definitely take a huge step back if we lost him.
That's so completely obvious it's not even funny
[/quote]

Simply not true, if Flacco was replaced by a different middle of the pack mediocre quarterback the team and QB will still benefit from great defense and an outstanding dual purpose running back.

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1336675747' post='1075787']
Well, hate to bust your bubble, but the FO has repeatedly said that Flacco IS our guy. So has Ray (both Rays).

So that leads me to the obvious question. If the front office could easily replace Flacco, why haven't they already?
[/quote]

I wouldn't expect them to publicly do anything different. You left out another team leader Ed Reed....Oh wait....

[Crabcakes&Football]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336689378' post='1075946']
Simply not true, if Flacco was replaced by a different middle of the pack mediocre quarterback the team and QB will still benefit from great defense and an outstanding dual purpose running back.
[/quote]

Yes, but would this team be as good as it is now? Would it be a legit Superbowl contender? I doubt it.

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='Crabcakes&Football' timestamp='1336689696' post='1075955']
Yes, but would this team be as good as it is now? Would it be a legit Superbowl contender? I doubt it.
[/quote]

A fair point, my reply is over the course of a season this team will only go as far as Ray Rice and the defense carries it. If the right middle of the pack QB is brought in the team wouldn't skip a beat and possibly win something. Flacco's current play over the course of a season isn't championship caliber... I'll concede he can mix in a good game against quality teams on occasion but he's just as capable of posting a stinker.. No matter the competition.

Flacco had 20 TDs and 18 turnovers in 2012 thats nothing special....

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336689378' post='1075946']
Simply not true, if Flacco was replaced by a different middle of the pack mediocre quarterback the team and QB will still benefit from great defense and an outstanding dual purpose running back.
[/quote]
You really dont have a clue.

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1336690146' post='1075961']
You really dont have a clue.
[/quote]

Pardon me I didn't realize 20 touchdowns & 18 turnovers was something to be desired.

The guy is the epitome of mediocrity when it comes to his chosen profession. Hopefully he can post better numbers next season, honestly it would be hard to go in the opposite direction.

[GrimCoconut]

Flacco will soon get the respect he deserves.

With a new contract, as Ed Reed would say. Joe is going to be a great QB in this league.

[berad]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336690681' post='1075971']


Pardon me I didn't realize 20 touchdowns & 18 turnovers was something to be desired.

[b]The guy is the epitome of mediocrity when it comes to his chosen profession. Hopefully he can post better numbers next season, honestly it would be hard to go in the opposite direction.[/b]
[/quote]

You must have missed every Ravens QB before Flacco. If he was easy to replace, the Ravens would have found someone half as good before 2008.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336690681' post='1075971']
Pardon me I didn't realize 20 touchdowns & 18 turnovers was something to be desired.

The guy is the epitome of mediocrity when it comes to his chosen profession. Hopefully he can post better numbers next season, honestly it would be hard to go in the opposite direction.
[/quote]

I know you're being a little coy about it, but mediocrity at quarterback is DII. Playing in the NFL means you're not mediocore in any regards. Even bench warmers are excellent quarterbacks. You may mean NFL, but this has always been my argument:

Outside of Ray Rice, Marshall Yanda and Vonta Leach Joe is a better player than the other players on the offense.

Yes including Boldin and yes, I do watch the games and if Boldin were that good he'd be open. And he's not.

We've never had a third wide receiver worth putting on the field, our best number 2 was a 2nd round rookie. Our best number 3 will either be Jacoby Jones or Doss/Williams.

[Y2J]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336689999' post='1075960']


A fair point, my reply is over the course of a season this team will only go as far as Ray Rice and the defense carries it
[/quote]

The rest of the AFC has answered this statement already. Houston and New England were hell bent on stopping Ray Rice in the playoffs. Other than one game, Ray Rice's career playoff numbers are not great. The AFC has spoken: They will not, I repeat, will not, let Ray Rice run the Ravens to a Super Bowl. Joe will have to get us there.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Y2J' timestamp='1336692295' post='1075993']
The rest of the AFC has answered this statement already. Houston and New England were hell bent on stopping Ray Rice in the playoffs. Other than one game, Ray Rice's career playoff numbers are not great. The AFC has spoken: They will not, I repeat, will not, let Ray Rice run the Ravens to a Super Bowl.
[/quote]
Rice also hasn't been what, top 10 in YPC since 2009?

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336689378' post='1075946']
Simply not true, if Flacco was replaced by a different middle of the pack mediocre quarterback the team and QB will still benefit from great defense and an outstanding dual purpose running back.
[/quote]

See...no.

Flacco is a unique breed of quarterback, that can't be correctly qualified by numbers.

Why? Come my young pupil, I shall instruct you.

First of all, numbers are just that, numbers. 20 Tds, 18 turnovers. True. Could be better. Of course, just looking at that to qualify quarterback play is like only looking at Two specs on a vehicle to determine if the vehicle is a good fit for the job. That's clearly insufficient data. Also, you need to analyze context. Like, a V8 Toyota Pickup might only average between 8-12 MPG, but that's just it: it's a V8 Pickup. You won't get good gas mileage out of it period. Flacco plays quarterback for a running defensive minded team. So, his job is not to give you "good gas mileage", or in this case, flashy stats. Instead, his job is to manage the game. Flacco is not a game manager because of a lack of skill to be otherwise, but rather because of necessity and our team design/personnel. Allow me to elaborate: Flacco has great physical skills, accuracy, strong arm, and an at least adequate ability to read defenses and find open receivers. But, his job entails him converting 3rd downs, taking shots down field on play-action, and not turning the ball over. Oh, and giving the ball to Rice as much as possible. Could he do more? Hell yes. But, he's told not to because we have a great defense (so the risk of turning the ball over and not eating up enough time because you're passing comes into mind), and we lack a good supporting cast to go pass happy (great offensive line, top notch receivers, good play schemes). Rather, we have a personnel made to run the ball (Pro Running Back, Best FB in the league, big offensive linemen, you get the idea.) Thus, Flacco has low stats because his job entails doing tasks that while important and difficult, don't translate to numbers (passing deep [ you get more yardage but less completions, and you will be sacked more ], converting 3rd downs [ the defense usually knows you are going to pass] and leading a come back late if you're game plan fails or your defense fails). So, with Flacco, you really have to almost do a play by play game by game analysis. He certainly isn't the best quarterback in the league, but he's a darn good one because he makes plays every game that without victory wouldn't be nearly as easy, or even possible.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind another simple truth that Flacco is also affected negatively by his teammates. When they drop balls, run wrong routes, read the defense different than Flacco, bad cuts, terrible blocking or lack of it, etc. Also, we face so many elite defenses that Brees, Rodgers, etc. don't face. That's not to say they aren't better than Flacco, rather that their stats are so much higher than his more because of lesser competition and being in passing offenses.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336689648' post='1075953']
I wouldn't expect them to publicly do anything different. You left out another team leader Ed Reed....Oh wait....
[/quote]

So in other words, you can't answer my question. Thanks, that's all I needed to know

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1336696306' post='1076029']
So in other words, you can't answer my question. Thanks, that's all I needed to know
[/quote]

Ouch...the classic Fly "can't answer my question" routine. Burn.

[codizzle]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1336689378' post='1075946']


Simply not true, if Flacco was replaced by a different middle of the pack mediocre quarterback the team and QB will still benefit from great defense and an outstanding dual purpose running back.
[/quote]
I see u have yet to list a "middle of the pack mediocre QB" that could come in and do it

[FerrariFan87]

Flacco is right about where he should be, and hopefully after this season he'll propel himself into the Top 50 or better.

[atljbo]

[quote name='admartian' timestamp='1336681681' post='1075855']
Fully understand what you're saying.

I think part of it also is your OC is more open with the playbook to Matt. While we have who have...
[/quote]

I get that but at the same time.. Our OC was about to be fired... For some strange reason even tho all the players (Roddy White, Tony Gonzalez and others) would say the team run best in no huddle because Matt Ryan ran the show... The problem is.. Our OC didnt want/call for no huddle.. It got to the point that our HC had to call no huddle during games because our OC didnt like the no huddle for some reason... But thats when our team clicked.... Also Roddy White and players went off saying our OC came in the Giants game sacred.. He thought our O-Line couldnt hold up so he didnt coach it aggressively ... You can check out the article your self

[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Atwq_Ia4faIFAkGW0qSM2yk5nYcB?slug=jc-cole_new_york_giants_defensive_line_falcons_010812"]http://sports.yahoo....yk5nYcB?slug=jc[/url]
[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Atwq_Ia4faIFAkGW0qSM2yk5nYcB?slug=jc-cole_new_york_giants_defensive_line_falcons_010812"]cole_new_york_giants_defensive_line_falcons_010812[/url]


[quote]
“We talked about trying to establish the running game because we didn’t think we could pass protect,” said Falcons wide receiver [url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7203/"]Roddy White[/url], who was limited to five catches for 52 yards with a long of only 21 yards. “We played right into their hands. I mean, if they sack us every down and we can’t move the ball, OK. But let’s try.”

White’s remarks echo private comments of several other players who have pointed at a disconnection who offensive coordinator Mike Mularkey’s approach. Numerous players believe Mularkey is too conservative, particularly in tense situations like the playoffs.

Or as one player put it: “Something has to be said to [coach] Mike [Smith] this offseason.”
[/quote]



My point is Matt Ryan didnt have the leeway some think.. The HC had to get us in No Huddle because the OC wouldnt

But back to the main Subject.. Flacco def deserve to be on this list..... Tebow tho....

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='Y2J' timestamp='1336692295' post='1075993']
The rest of the AFC has answered this statement already. Houston and New England were hell bent on stopping Ray Rice in the playoffs. Other than one game, Ray Rice's career playoff numbers are not great. The AFC has spoken: They will not, I repeat, will not, let Ray Rice run the Ravens to a Super Bowl. Joe will have to get us there.
[/quote]

And the reason is because defensive coodinators including the best defensive mind in the game Belicheck know that Flacco can't put the team on his back and win.....

The playoff formula is pretty simple. Stop Rice and limit turnovers = Ravens lose.

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1336696306' post='1076029']
So in other words, you can't answer my question. Thanks, that's all I needed to know
[/quote]

I thought you knew my opinion from our past debates.

Hopefully I can post an image I made.



I purposely left off some of the games best quarterbacks because comparing Flacco with those guys are an absolute laugh.

The key here is

Players hilighted in green the Ravens would win Super Bowls with them at the helm before they would with Flacco'
Players with white background arguably the same performance Flacco fits in this group of mediocrity. [u]That's not to say some in green aren't mediocre as well.[/u]
Players hilighted in blue will be better than Flacco in future years if playing in the Raven system.

I hope this answers your question.

[img]http://i50.tinypic.com/2jafczd.jpg[/img]