Is It Necessary That We Hate Any Of Our Players That Weren't All-Pro?

[RavensDE]

I get so tired of all the negative talk about players that we have had that really played well for us but for some reason or another things didn't work out, or they never had the potential to be truly great.


Examples
Chris Carr
Chris Carr was signed to be return man and nickel corner and then started almost the whole season and played solid until he was injured. He would tackle and really throw his body around. He outplayed his original contract. We looked thin at CB signed him to a front loaded deal last year for more than we wanted to. He got hurt and this season he was expensive and deep on the bench so we cut him. He was cool with it and we were a good organization about it. No need to say he sucked. He was good for us.

Corey Ivy
We were again thin at CB and we signed Ivy as a nickel package corner. He was physical and typically a smart player. He wasn't a building block but he played well for us and he went on as a journeyman. He has my respect.

Frank Walker
He was terrible. Fire away but he did just enough and was our best option at the time. He did stink though.

Foxworth
Foxworth played well for us for one year then he got hurt. It happens. He wasn't a true shut-down corner but there aren't many of those. We kept him for a reason, we hoped he would return to form. He didn't so he was cut this year. It's okay. He didn't suck it just didn't work out.


I just don't understand why as fans we can't respect players who gave us what they had even if it wasn't the greatness we want. They "played like Ravens" and did their best for this city. We don't have to say they were great when they weren't but they desreve our respect. Except Frank Walker he stunk. (That a joke -kinda). For O's fans Joe Orsulak comes to mind. He was never great but darnit I loved that guy.

[RavensDE]

By the way this was off the cuff there are so many more disrespected players that were solid for us that get trashed by fans.

"Can't we all just get along?"

[redrum52]

I never got the Carr hate. 09 and 10 he played well to me as did Foxwofth later in 09. Frank The Yellow Flag man Walker, I can't defend that except to say I think be played with heart,and a chip on his shoulder. Hold on, after review it wasn't a chip, just another penalty flag on his shoulder.

Actually, now o think I know why people disliked them, it was due to the fact they were making more money than people who deserved it. Many people never agreed with giving Fox that money to begin with, me being one of those people especially after it took him so long to adjust to our system. Carr had played well previous to 11 then got money and there was no space for him. If he wasn't getting all that money there probably would have been no complaints, but the salary could have been allocated elsewhere.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Nothing to do with those players not being all-pro. They stunk.

You make it sound like ravens fans are special angels. We are not. Like any sports, if the players stinks, and pay us games, they'll get hated. Those players you listed were especially bad.

[Token]

I think it was more frustration than it was hate.

[arnie_uk]

Chris Carr was down right awful last year when he was on the park, id be willing to bet 90% of the passes threw his direction went for a 1st down!

and is it not ok to criticise bad players? we have to show the love to all the players? we all have to have the same opinion that all players are great? If you really want to get into, why dont you send ozzie a email and tell him that, and that he cant cut any players, and he has to resign every one....

[EdReedFTW]

I dont know why you got neg'd so much. Everything that you said was true. I blame the fact that you mentioned Frank Walker. People are so shocked to hear that name again that they neg'd you as a reflex.

[Yatagarasu]

Frank Walker?

He was a good physical press corner, however when he got burned, he really got burned. I feel that he should've went to a good cover 2 zone defense, instead of a man covering defense.

Chris Carr had an awful season last year due to injuries. He became expendable once the team had a strong depth of CBs and his salary cap. He was good the two years he was there as a solid slot cornerback, but his return duty was questionable.

Man, I remember the days when our secondary was so bad during the Mattison days that we had to rush 3 man because of the secondary weakness. Those were some hard times with all the complaining and criticism from our very own forum. We should be grateful that we moved on from those days and have somewhat of a strong secondary, if not elite.

2009 Ravens Secondary
Record: 9-7
DC: Gregg Mattison

CBs:
Domonique Foxworth - Had ups and downs, but improved steadily to a solid cb.
Chris Carr - Did slot duty well, however allowed a lot of receptions
Frank Walker - All I remember from him was he was either 10 yards behind his target or called for pass interference.
Lardarius Webb - Our weak secondary put him into action, which he did well until he torn his acl.
Fabian Washington - He did show some potential with his speed, but acl injury really cut his season short
Corey Ivy - A veteran who just provided support, but he lost a lot of steps at age 32

I knew the secondary was struggling on its last string when Peyton Manning was just marching down the field with Dallas Clark, Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, and Austin Collie in the playoffs.

I'm happy that we moved on and somewhat survived that season with a makeshift secondary.

[Alexir]

Chris Carr doesn't cover, he chases. Arnie is right, he would give up first downs all the time.

I don't need all pros but this is the NFL and they are getting paid at least 450k a year to play a childhood game for entertainment. They are due certain criticisms.

[Purple Punishment]

Ivy sucked IMO.

Walker wasn't the best but when the playoffs came, that boy was rock solid. He wasn't a shut down CB but he played 10 times better in the post season

[Irish Raven]

Fabien Washington could turn in some good performances but the next week would look a different player

Watched highlights of the Bills game and he just got abused by Ryan Fitzpatrick and Lee Evans. Downright horrible performance for a defensive back.

Ravens won in overtime and Josh Wilson was starter from then on

[berad]

Corey Ivy and Frank Walker were AWFUL. Ivy couldn't cover anyone and Walker treated every receiver like a baby chimp treats their mom - let go of them, Frank!

I appreciate solid players who aren't greats like JJ, Redding, Kelly Gregg, Kelly Washington, Dawan Landry, etc but some people are just bad and a hindrance to the team. Names like Mark Levoir, Bryan Mattison, and O'neil Cousins just make me sad.

[Free Agent]

Both Carr and Foxworth were pretty bad for most of 2009, although Foxworth upped his play towards the end of '09. Carr was good in 2010, when he adjusted to Greg Mattison's zone defense, but last year he was always a good two or three yards off the receiver he was supposed to be covering. Corey Ivy wasnt too bad, but Frank Walker was awful... anytime Walker couldnt stay with a WR, he'd draw a ridiculous pass interference or holding call.. its was awful. Im very glad he's gone.

[CapoRocky]

Here's my input:

Carr - Never lived up to the expectations as a shutdown CB or returner. He outlived his usefulness when Webb and Williams performed well last year. There was no future for him with the emergence of Smith late in the season.

Ivy - A journeyman CB who was adequate on special teams, but never developed the ability to cover well.

Walker - Flagmeister who lived and died by the philosophy that if you can't cover them then grab their jersey or do anything to stop them. This is similar to what a hockey defender does when an opponent blows past them at the blue line on a breakaway.

[Ravenslifer]

I stopped reading after I saw Frank "P.I." Walker. I think the big issue with most of the guys you named is that we paid them quite a bit of money, and therefore had an expectation of a performance level that they didn't reach. I agree, there are certain players that people hate on that IMO receive unfair criticism, but the guys you named weren't just not all-pros, they were guys who were highly paid to do a job, and didn't get it done. They still got paid more money in 2 years than any of us will make in our lifetimes.

[BloodRaven]

Chris Carr sucks, with sprinkles, and a cherry on top.

[RavensDE]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1336486071' post='1073912']
Corey Ivy and Frank Walker were AWFUL. Ivy couldn't cover anyone and Walker treated every receiver like a baby chimp treats their mom - let go of them, Frank!

I appreciate solid players who aren't greats like JJ, Redding, Kelly Gregg, Kelly Washington, Dawan Landry, etc but some people are just bad and a hindrance to the team. Names like Mark Levoir, Bryan Mattison, and O'neil Cousins just make me sad.
[/quote]

JJ, Redding, Gregg, and Landry are solid? Those guys are almost stars and each is getting paid big bucks because they are more than solid. Those guys are great players. (Gregg is past his prime, but I digress..) Since we drafted him, Cousins was a dissapointment, but I totally agree that those names stink. They are all barely on the team practice squaders, so I think thats fair.

I'm just having a hard time with this idea that anyone who gets beat or gets injured suddenly stinks. Down year, past their prime, injured or whatever some players get labelled as terrible when they are solid and are struggling in the short term. Webb had a terrible year two years ago. Carr really comes to mind because he was never signed to be a shutdown corner and was never paid like one. His first contract was for nickel corner/returner money. Even the last contract was average starter money. We didn't cut him because he stunk we cut him because he wasn't our starter and he was paid like he was.

Why do we need to bash these guys because they aren't perfect? If they screwed up last week/season okay (hrm hrm David Reed last year), but a guy has a bad run and its all "he's terrible" as if we deserve a star at every position on the depth chart.

[RavensDE]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1336488496' post='1073932']
I stopped reading after I saw Frank "P.I." Walker.
[/quote]

Well I said he did stink so...

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='RavensDE' timestamp='1336488541' post='1073935']
Well I said he did stink so...
[/quote]

No I get your point. We hated on guys like Ben Grubbs and Bart Scott, but those guys played very well for us for years and they deserved an opportunity to make more elsewhere. But it's different, to me, when a highly paid free agent plays poorly. Like I said, when you pay a player a lot of money, like we did with all of those cornerbacks, it comes with an expectation that they play up to the money. When they don't, and when their obvious poor play costs you games, then I think it's a fan's right to be critical of said player. I guarantee NONE of the players you mentioned are losing any sleep over what fans in Baltimore think of them - if they are, they can use their millions to buy some ultimate Sleep Number Bed.

[Gordo52]

I don't hate any player that wears or have worn a Baltimore Jersey. I dislike a bunch. But the closest to hate would be Kevin Gregg on the O's. Lol

[TheMadRaven]

In regards to the original question. Yes, yes it is necessary.
I kid.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1336487543' post='1073926']
Here's my input:

[b]Carr - Never lived up to the expectations as a shutdown CB or returner. He outlived his usefulness when Webb and Williams performed well last year. There was no future for him with the emergence of Smith late in the season.[/b]

Ivy - A journeyman CB who was adequate on special teams, but never developed the ability to cover well.

Walker - Flagmeister who lived and died by the philosophy that if you can't cover them then grab their jersey or do anything to stop them. This is similar to what a hockey defender does when an opponent blows past them at the blue line on a breakaway.
[/quote]

When did we expect Carr to be shut down? And that contributes to the "hate" for lack of a better term, which is the OPs point. When players are brought in and advertised as "the man" or as the answer (think WR Roy Williams in Dallas) and they don't perform, they'll get a really bad rep in their city. For us, that was Clayton. Now I know Clayton did not at all live up to first round expectations, but even when he did have good games, I feel as though people just brushed them off, which I think is unfortunate. As soon as he dropped the 4th down in NE in 09, people started questioning his hands.

Having said that, some guys [i]did[/i] deserve the heat. Walker improved in the 09 playoffs, but he was dreadful apart from that. I never really held a grudge against Fabian, but at the same time I just never got behind him. Same with Kinde right now.

Another guy who really deserved it was Oneil. 'Nuff said, lol.

I think there's a fine line between not getting behind a player/coach and holding a grudge against them. Personally, I'd like to think I don't hold as many grudges as most fans.

[flynismo]

[quote name='RavensDE' timestamp='1336488514' post='1073934']
JJ, Redding, Gregg, and Landry are solid? Those guys are almost stars and each is getting paid big bucks because they are more than solid. Those guys are great players.
[/quote]

If you think they are great, then it just goes to show how loosely words like "great" and "elite" are thrown around.

[hawkprey]

Carr was our best/second best corner in 2010, in 2011 he was injured pretty much the entire time. Same with Foxworth, only replace 2010 with 2009. Walker and Ivy cost us more than they helped.

[Blex64]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1336496640' post='1074008']
If you think they are great, then it just goes to show how loosely words like "great" and "elite" are thrown around.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I'd go that far. I wouldn't call them elite but Redding and JJ are both superb run-stoppers, and Redding really was quite good last season when rushing as well.

[Suggs Package]

Personally, I've never hated some of those players because they were low salary guys who were brought in mainly to be reserves and you can only expect so much from them.

I don't think any fans hate any of our players, but get frustrated at certain ones because you know they have the talent to be better. But at the end of the day, with the salary cap, no team in the NFL can afford to have great players at every position. So you have to take the good with the bad.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1336497732' post='1074015']
I'm not sure I'd go that far. I wouldn't call them elite but Redding and JJ are both superb run-stoppers, and Redding really was quite good last season when rushing as well.
[/quote]

Well, that's kind of my point. 'Great' and 'elite' are practically interchangeable. Ray is a great player. Ed is a great player. Suggs is a great player.
JJ is pretty good.

[CalvinSmoke]

[sup]First of all, Kelly Gregg was great if you ask me. A border-line Demi God in my eyes lol. Loved that guy. [/sup]
[sup]On a serious note, our fan base isn't too bad on having average players, we except them better than most others. Many would argue that Flacco is average but we keep him and we appreciate him regardless (not saying that's my opinion). The Ravens have the ability to mold players that initially had average potential and make them appear great in our system, most Ravens that leave our organization don't reproduce their success elsewhere.[/sup]
[sup]But anyways, no one hates anyone you mentioned except Walker and Cousins. [/sup]

[codizzle]

Some people have the ability to take off the purple glasses and some do not

[redrum52]

This is going to turn into a Flacco thread... Now I might be the catalyst, but I can see where this was going to go. Someone is going to call Flacco average, someone defends him and in the words of Fairy Deion, "It's on!".