Suggs Achilles Injury

[ravensfan2424]

I feel that as long as Suggs stays away from a setback, he returns after the bye or at the latest inbetween the two Pittsburgh games. He'll play the Steelers even if they have to chop his leg off

[cursona pirate]

Suggs is injured?

[gabefergy]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1346199035' post='1132154']
Maybe. I haven't seen much promise out of the young OLB's, but I don't want to create a log jam either. I wouldn't want to spend a pick on a guy who will only be of service to us for 6 weeks.
[/quote]

Can never have too many pass-rushers. Kindle and Upshaw are huge question marks right now and McClellan isnt a proven pass-rusher either although I have liked what I have seen from him vs the run.

[baltravensrj55]

[quote name='cursona pirate' timestamp='1346200576' post='1132186']
Suggs is injured?
[/quote]
billy cundiff is injured?

[display name]

[quote name='cursona pirate' timestamp='1346200576' post='1132186']
Suggs is injured?
[/quote]
I don't get it.
Oh and the Joe Flacco rap part of your sig-gotta go.

[cursona pirate]

[quote name='display name' timestamp='1346204325' post='1132240']

I don't get it.
Oh and the Joe Flacco rap part of your sig-gotta go.
[/quote]
Lol nope.

[redrum52]

Am I alone in thinking we should shut him down for the season. If he reinjures himself that's a lot money and career wasted. I say let him come back next year. This is a pretty serious injury and is known to end people's run. Suggs being one of my favorites I would hate seeing him have to play half speed or knowing he's playing scared.

[Purple Nurple]

I would agree but didn't he have a partial tear? I'm assuming that's not as bad ad a full tear and would be easier to overcome as an injury.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Purple Nurple' timestamp='1346217672' post='1132336']
I would agree but didn't he have a partial tear? I'm assuming that's not as bad ad a full tear and would be easier to overcome as an injury.
[/quote]
I think once you go through surgery it's basically the same rehab no matter the original severity. That said if he is ready to go, I see no reason why he should be shelved.

[usmccharles]

the problem is, just because hes "ready to go" doesnt mean hes back to being Sizzle. with this inury you lose that push off exploisive power which is what makes suggs who he is. When this first happened i was apart of the, we will be ok, next man up theory, the more ive broken it down and looked at it im starting to really worry. i could understand if we lost just an average LB, but losing the DPOY is drastically different. Not only do we lose his production but we also lose what other offenses have to do to prepare for him which is the big part of why hes so great. A lot of people will say well at least we stil have ngata, well before they couldnt double team him and suggs, now they can, so i expect ngatas production to drop as well...so we are losing more than just suggs numbers. Not gonna lie...im confident in our secondary but with out a decent pass rush, even i could get open if the qb is given enough time

[hawkprey]

[quote name='usmccharles' timestamp='1346287650' post='1132877']
the problem is, just because hes "ready to go" doesnt mean hes back to being Sizzle. with this inury you lose that push off exploisive power which is what makes suggs who he is. When this first happened i was apart of the, we will be ok, next man up theory, the more ive broken it down and looked at it im starting to really worry. i could understand if we lost just an average LB, but losing the DPOY is drastically different. Not only do we lose his production but we also lose what other offenses have to do to prepare for him which is the big part of why hes so great. A lot of people will say well at least we stil have ngata, well before they couldnt double team him and suggs, now they can, so i expect ngatas production to drop as well...so we are losing more than just suggs numbers. Not gonna lie...im confident in our secondary but with out a decent pass rush, even i could get open if the qb is given enough time
[/quote]
Yeah, just like how Houston lost Mario Williams to injury last year and their defense just dropped off completely. Or how James Harrison and Lamarr Woodley miss a third of the season and suddenly the Steelers can't seem to hold it together. You're acting like we have to play with 10 men on the field now. Coaching, defensive schemes, backups and players forced to step up all help make up for the loss of one player. The '85 Bears played the season with two of their best defenders holding out. I think we'll be fine.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1346291540' post='1132934']
Yeah, just like how Houston lost Mario Williams to injury last year and their defense just dropped off completely. Or how James Harrison and Lamarr Woodley miss a third of the season and suddenly the Steelers can't seem to hold it together. You're acting like we have to play with 10 men on the field now. Coaching, defensive schemes, backups and players forced to step up all help make up for the loss of one player. The '85 Bears played the season with two of their best defenders holding out. I think we'll be fine.
[/quote]

Great points. It's definitely underrated the way our defense will change without Suggs. Not having that safety net will force us to mix up our fronts and use more disguises. I think we'll feel the loss of Suggs the most in the run game but with the (hopeful) overall improvement of our secondary it'll be a wash. Overall I see sacks going down and yards allowed going up, but this will be balanced by an increase in picks.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1346294590' post='1132960']
Great points. It's definitely underrated the way our defense will change without Suggs. Not having that safety net will force us to mix up our fronts and use more disguises. I think we'll feel the loss of Suggs the most in the run game but with the (hopeful) overall improvement of our secondary it'll be a wash. Overall I see sacks going down and yards allowed going up, but this will be balanced by an increase in picks.
[/quote]
Initially I wasn't worried about the loss of Suggs. I felt like our OLBs could step up if necessary. I felt pretty confident that Kruger and Upshaw could pull it off with McClellan and Kindle rotating in for them. I felt like if things got really bad we could always substitute McClain at OLB since he used to play the position way back. Now, I don't feel as confident in our 3-4 OLBs/4-3 DEs.

I fear that Kruger is too small to play the 4-3 DE position. That was one of the best things about Suggs is he could switch between the two. Upshaw is a big question mark right now for me since he is a rookie. The Ravens defense has always relied upon disguising schemes--like any defense. We just like to do a lot of hybrid stuff mixing between the two different defensive positions. The loss of Suggs and the rather unimpressive showing from the rush linebackers has made me question their effectiveness this year in pass-rushing. It has, however, opened my mind to another possibility for pressure.

There are many ways we can get pressure outside of the Rush & Sam linebackers. Applying pressure from the front three or four can generate a lot of pressure on opposing teams. We have McPhee, Kemoeatu, Ngata, and even Jones to a small extent. Cody has shown some growth this preseason in that area, though not a whole lot.

The one thing that I really took away from this preseason is I think we will see a lot of CB & S blitzes. I think we will use the secondary to pressure the QB more than we did previously. I am worried that it could cause us to give up some yards, though. I can see us using Pollard, Webb, and even guys like Omar Brown and Chris Thompson and possibly even Ed Reed to sack the QB. Lewis & McClain may also see an increase in sacks as the Ravens attempt to blow through the pocket than around it.

I'm excited for the Ravens defense this year, honestly. I can't wait to see how Dean gets pressure without Suggs. I feel that Suggs will come back well from this injury, though I don't expect him to be the same as he was before it--at least not initially.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1346295718' post='1132967']
Initially I wasn't worried about the loss of Suggs. I felt like our OLBs could step up if necessary. I felt pretty confident that Kruger and Upshaw could pull it off with McClellan and Kindle rotating in for them. I felt like if things got really bad we could always substitute McClain at OLB since he used to play the position way back. Now, I don't feel as confident in our 3-4 OLBs/4-3 DEs.

I fear that Kruger is too small to play the 4-3 DE position. That was one of the best things about Suggs is he could switch between the two. Upshaw is a big question mark right now for me since he is a rookie. [b]The Ravens defense has always relied upon disguising schemes--like any defense. [/b]We just like to do a lot of hybrid stuff mixing between the two different defensive positions. The loss of Suggs and the rather unimpressive showing from the rush linebackers has made me question their effectiveness this year in pass-rushing. It has, however, opened my mind to another possibility for pressure.

There are many ways we can get pressure outside of the Rush & Sam linebackers. Applying pressure from the front three or four can generate a lot of pressure on opposing teams. We have McPhee, Kemoeatu, Ngata, and even Jones to a small extent. Cody has shown some growth this preseason in that area, though not a whole lot.

The one thing that I really took away from this preseason is I think we will see a lot of CB & S blitzes. I think we will use the secondary to pressure the QB more than we did previously. I am worried that it could cause us to give up some yards, though. I can see us using Pollard, Webb, and even guys like Omar Brown and Chris Thompson and possibly even Ed Reed to sack the QB. Lewis & McClain may also see an increase in sacks as the Ravens attempt to blow through the pocket than around it.

I'm excited for the Ravens defense this year, honestly. I can't wait to see how Dean gets pressure without Suggs. I feel that Suggs will come back well from this injury, though I don't expect him to be the same as he was before it--at least not initially.
[/quote]

I see where you're coming from and we agree overall, but for the bolded portion I would rebut with Greg Mattison. Mattison was used to having superior talent at Florida and thus used that talent as a crutch to field simple, conservative schemes. In my opinion, he tried the same thing with the Ravens and while our defensive talent is better than most, that gap is just not as great in the NFL. This was borne out by us still being top 10 and then top 5 statistically, but any Ravens fan would tell you that neither of those teams passed "eye test"--the players just played out of their minds because of the strength of our locker room.

Pagano came in with a scheme that was more like Rex's but with more balance, allowing Suggs to ball out of his mind in all phases but also allowed us to generate the turnovers and offensive miscues that Mattison could not. I bring this up because I was, and still am, afraid that Pees would be more like Mattison than Pagana, however I think not having Suggs will force him to be more creative. I want to give Pees a chance because we haven't seen much, but I'm hoping that the loss of Suggs brings the best out of everyone on that side of the ball.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1346296331' post='1132974']
I see where you're coming from and we agree overall, but for the bolded portion I would rebut with Greg Mattison. Mattison was used to having superior talent at Florida and thus used that talent as a crutch to field simple, conservative schemes. In my opinion, he tried the same thing with the Ravens and while our defense talent is better than most, that gap is just not as great in the NFL. This was borne out by us still being top 10 and then top 5 statistically, but any Ravens fan would tell you that neither of those teams passed "eye test"--the players just played out of their minds because of the strength of our locker room.

Pagano came in with a scheme that was more like Rex's but with more balance, allowing Suggs to ball out of his mind in all phases but also allowed us to generate the turnovers and offensive miscues that Mattison could not. I bring this up because I was, and still am, afraid that Pees would be more like Mattison than Pagana, however I think not having Suggs will force him to be more creative. I want to give Pees a chance because we haven't seen much, but I'm hoping that the loss of Suggs brings the best out of everyone on that side of the ball.
[/quote]
I hear you. I've heard that DP is a lot like Mattison, but one reason that leads me to believe he isn't is that he fielded some very good defenses in New England. New England was never known for its defense, but he had a pretty decent defense up there when he was in command of the defense. That's what makes me believe he won't be like Mattison. We don't know yet, but from the sound of things I don't see him being a repeat.

And for the record: I don't think Mattison was Ravens football anyway.

[The Raven]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1346295718' post='1132967']
Initially I wasn't worried about the loss of Suggs. I felt like our OLBs could step up if necessary. I felt pretty confident that Kruger and Upshaw could pull it off with McClellan and Kindle rotating in for them. I felt like if things got really bad we could always substitute McClain at OLB since he used to play the position way back. Now, I don't feel as confident in our 3-4 OLBs/4-3 DEs.

[b]I fear that Kruger is too small to play the 4-3 DE position[/b]. That was one of the best things about Suggs is he could switch between the two. Upshaw is a big question mark right now for me since he is a rookie. The Ravens defense has always relied upon disguising schemes--like any defense. We just like to do a lot of hybrid stuff mixing between the two different defensive positions. The loss of Suggs and the rather unimpressive showing from the rush linebackers has made me question their effectiveness this year in pass-rushing. It has, however, opened my mind to another possibility for pressure.

There are many ways we can get pressure outside of the Rush & Sam linebackers. Applying pressure from the front three or four can generate a lot of pressure on opposing teams. We have McPhee, Kemoeatu, Ngata, and even Jones to a small extent. Cody has shown some growth this preseason in that area, though not a whole lot.

The one thing that I really took away from this preseason is I think we will see a lot of CB & S blitzes. I think we will use the secondary to pressure the QB more than we did previously. I am worried that it could cause us to give up some yards, though. I can see us using Pollard, Webb, and even guys like Omar Brown and Chris Thompson and possibly even Ed Reed to sack the QB. Lewis & McClain may also see an increase in sacks as the Ravens attempt to blow through the pocket than around it.

I'm excited for the Ravens defense this year, honestly. I can't wait to see how Dean gets pressure without Suggs. I feel that Suggs will come back well from this injury, though I don't expect him to be the same as he was before it--at least not initially.
[/quote]

Kruger is listed at practically the same size as Suggs.........

[beasy2487]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1346296580' post='1132975']
I hear you. I've heard that DP is a lot like Mattison, but one reason that leads me to believe he isn't is that he fielded some very good defenses in New England. New England was never known for its defense, but he had a pretty decent defense up there when he was in command of the defense. That's what makes me believe he won't be like Mattison. We don't know yet, but from the sound of things I don't see him being a repeat.

And for the record: [b]I don't think Mattison was Ravens football anyway[/b].
[/quote]

Totally agree. There's an old line that says "necessity breeds innovation". Pees is going to be forced to dig into that defensive mind and truly hoodwink some OCs--and I think we'll all be better for it.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1346296631' post='1132976']
Kruger is listed at practically the same size as Suggs.........
[/quote]

Yea Kruger just needs serious mentoring in technique when it comes to reading plays and being able to rush the passer without giving up the edge. I saw a lot of overpursuit and overpenetration that led to big runs to his side.

[The Raven]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1346296968' post='1132982']
Yea Kruger just needs serious mentoring in technique when it comes to reading plays and being able to rush the passer without giving up the edge. I saw a lot of overpursuit and overpenetration that led to big runs to his side.
[/quote]

This is very true. Our dlinemen are very aggressive, so much that it can be a problem at times. Instead of playing into the backfield, they need to play down the line more, control their gap, and make a good tackle instead of shooting in a whiffing.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1346296631' post='1132976']
Kruger is listed at practically the same size as Suggs.........
[/quote]
Oops, my bad. I was thinking back to when we were trying to convert him to a 3-4 DE. Got my memory mixed up. God, I still don't understand why Mattison was trying to do that. I feel like that really set Kruger back.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1346296810' post='1132978']
Totally agree. There's an old line that says[b] "necessity breeds innovation"[/b]. Pees is going to be forced to dig into that defensive mind and truly hoodwink some OCs--and I think we'll all be better for it.
[/quote]
Right, I think the players around Suggs getting the chance to step up as well could be for the better. I know that sounds like just fan speak, i.e., the best situation possible is the one I'm banking on... But, it's part of the reason I don't overreact to one injury. Ray Lew missing a few games brought out the best in McClain and McClellan, and gave Suggs the chance to step up as a leader.

A few more positives:
1. Our defense had years (09 especially) when Suggs wasn't very dominant, and the D was just fine.
2. Suggs wasn't doing much towards the end of the year (possibly from a nagging injury - he sat out the Pro Bowl), and we were still pretty good on D then.
3. Our scheme could focus on the strengths of other players and not just the strength of Suggs.

I don't know if it's the plan or hiding the real defense, but we've seen a LOT of 4-man fronts under Pees. We used to rush 5 most of the time with JJ (dead weight on passing downs) on the outside. But now we might be able to get similar pressure with only 4 players in the front and get in a late rusher or play with an extra linebacker.

[beasy2487]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1346297624' post='1132990']
Oops, my bad. I was thinking back to when we were trying to convert him to a 3-4 DE. Got my memory mixed up. God, I still don't understand why Mattison was trying to do that. I feel like that really set Kruger back.
[/quote]

Yea it's a tough thing to do overall, that's what makes Suggs so great. I'm encouraged though because guys like Von Miller and Suh struggled with this early on as starters and even Suggs when he came into the league. It's definitely a coachable skill so as long as our guys keep that nose for the ball the rest should come in time.

Although, as an aside, I'm not looking forward to these boards after we give up 30+ points to the Eagles--even though we win the game. Given our young OLBs (that grew up watching Vick destroy kids with his feet)and that it willl be early in the season, Vick will stretch us out a little bit sideline to sideline for little positive yardage but enough to put the threat in the defense's mind, allowing McCoy to get up the gut, and ultimately Jackson will burn us deep. However, I see Vick throwing 2-3 picks setting us up for easy points (a fake FG run in score for Tucker perhaps?!!! lol), and, in the end, our offense will do enough. 14 from Joe, 7 from Rice, 14 from Vick turnovers and we're good.

I see people calling for Pees' head and some benchings following that game, but coming out of the Bye we're back to what we're used to on defense.

[The Raven]

[quote name='beasy2487' timestamp='1346303808' post='1133014']
Yea it's a tough thing to do overall, that's what makes Suggs so great. I'm encouraged though because guys like Von Miller and Suh struggled with this early on as starters and even Suggs when he came into the league. It's definitely a coachable skill so as long as our guys keep that nose for the ball the rest should come in time.

Although, as an aside, I'm not looking forward to these boards after we give up 30+ points to the Eagles--even though we win the game. Given our young OLBs (that grew up watching Vick destroy kids with his feet)and that it willl be early in the season, Vick will stretch us out a little bit sideline to sideline for little positive yardage but enough to put the threat in the defense's mind, allowing McCoy to get up the gut, and ultimately Jackson will burn us deep. However, I see Vick throwing 2-3 picks setting us up for easy points (a fake FG run in score for Tucker perhaps?!!! lol), and, in the end, our offense will do enough. 14 from Joe, 7 from Rice, 14 from Vick turnovers and we're good.

[b]I see people calling for Pees' head and some benchings following that game, but coming out of the Bye we're back to what we're used to on defense.[/b]
[/quote]

I'm not so sure. I think Pees' conservative approach is just the gameplan you need against running QB's. By rushing only 4, making them contain Vick, and dropping 7 you force Vick to beat you with his arm. If you use the front 4 to contain Vick and get a little pressure, you can take away his running. I'm not sure if he can beat our secondary with his arm.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1346297624' post='1132990']
Oops, my bad. I was thinking back to when we were trying to convert him to a 3-4 DE. Got my memory mixed up. God, I still don't understand why Mattison was trying to do that. I feel like that really set Kruger back.
[/quote]
I actually asked kruger in person about his weight at a signing, and he said he just naturally bulked up and they tried to play him at the 5 on passing downs. He said he weighed the same at the end of his rookie year as he did in his sophomore year. They just saw him said 'man you got big, lets try DE.'

[redrum52]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1346291540' post='1132934']

Yeah, just like how Houston lost Mario Williams to injury last year and their defense just dropped off completely. Or how James Harrison and Lamarr Woodley miss a third of the season and suddenly the Steelers can't seem to hold it together. You're acting like we have to play with 10 men on the field now. Coaching, defensive schemes, backups and players forced to step up all help make up for the loss of one player. The '85 Bears played the season with two of their best defenders holding out. I think we'll be fine.
[/quote]

This is different. Houston didn't lose both it's starting olbs. I feel other players will pick up the slack but you can't replace Suggs and what he did. Also it was Houston's first year in a 3-4 so you don't know hoe productive he would've been. I think Kruger does fine as Upshaw adjusts and we see big improvements from McPhee.

[Tyler]

Seems like a no brainier to put Suggs on the IR now that the nflpa passed the new rule allowing 1 player to be able to come off of the IR and still play. This should allow us to keep a young guy on the roster that we don't want to get rid of.

[Grapple Raven]

According to a tweet on @Ravens:

MT @JasonLaCanfora: Checked w/NFL and Players on PUP cannot be used for the IR/Designated to Return. So Ravens couldn't use it for Suggs

Hope that means there is a great chance that Sizzle returns!

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