Ray Rice Potential Holdout

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='B-more Ravor' timestamp='1334586047' post='1049399']


FWIW, if Rice doesn't show up to Training Camp, he will not be "holding out" because he's not under contract. Under the CBA, he's perfectly within his rights to not show up, as long as he's hasn't yet signed his franchise tender.

If he were to carry it into the season (which I doubt), he's still within his rights, but the CBA does delineate some consequences if he's not signed by a certain time (ie he loses a year of service time).
[/quote]

I don't imagine that Rice will hold out past training camp. We will probably need to draft a RB to compete with Allen and Berry regardless of his decision. The worst case for him would be if we go with Allen as the starter and he starts tearing it up in the preseason. I'm pretty sure that Taylor could be a RB behind a guy like Leach if necessary. Maybe that's what the Ravens were thinking when they inquired about Dixon?

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='B-more Ravor' timestamp='1334586047' post='1049399']


FWIW, if Rice doesn't show up to Training Camp, he will not be "holding out" because he's not under contract. Under the CBA, he's perfectly within his rights to not show up, as long as he's hasn't yet signed his franchise tender.

If he were to carry it into the season (which I doubt), he's still within his rights, but the CBA does delineate some consequences if he's not signed by a certain time (ie he loses a year of service time).
[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification, B.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334463002' post='1048779']
Ray Lewis does his own workouts every year and always shows up in the best shape. Voluntary team workouts are not essential. There are plenty of other gyms, and trainers that can offer the same or possibly even better strength and conditioning programs. As long as Rice continues to work in his own program and improve upon his already solid foundation I have no major concern.

However, I want him signed as soon as possible. I'd like for this contract to at least be close in negotiations, but I have heard that it is not, which gives me concern. I really hope that he doesn't hold out and miss mandatory workouts, that could force us to waste a pick of make a signing that would ultimately be unnecesary. I really don't want to have to spend a pick on a runningback, regardless of round.
[/quote]

I can imagine that Ray's workouts are harder than those of the OTAs. He pushes himself to the limit. I'm sure he has a personal trainer to work with him. It's possible that we will draft a RB, especially if he can also return punts and kicks.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1334365742' post='1048331']

Right, voluntary is the key word.
If i recall players like Big Ray, Ngata, Ed Reed, Suggs didn't show up to voluntaries in 2010. So maybe Rice wants to take the time to concentrate on his signing.
[/quote]

Brees and Forte are also not attending their OTAs. Don't worry, Lil Ray will be back this year.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='Natty Boh' timestamp='1334451711' post='1048711']


I'm also hopeful of hearing about a deal getting done before camp.
[/quote]

If we go to 2 tags, then we are looking at close to $17M for 2 years. If we sign him for a contract similar to Foster, then maybe we can get him for a little more than $8M a year for 4-5 years. There is little savings in signing him to a long-term contract. The injury risk makes the guaranteed money (+$20M) the riskiest part.

[Free Agent]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1334587329' post='1049410']
I don't imagine that Rice will hold out past training camp. We will probably need to draft a RB to compete with Allen and Berry regardless of his decision. The worst case for him would be if we go with Allen as the starter and he starts tearing it up in the preseason. I'm pretty sure that Taylor could be a RB behind a guy like Leach if necessary. Maybe that's what the Ravens were thinking when they inquired about Dixon?
[/quote]
Taylor as in Tyrod? Nah, Im pretty sure they just want him at QB.. We have Allen and Berry, and Im sure we'll be adding another RB if Rice's holdout lasts long, and we may add another one anyway. But Dixon would simply be competition for the #2 QB job.

[B-more Ravor]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1334587056' post='1049409']
I'm sure they are sweating the cap right now knowing that someone will need to go after the draft just to have enough money to sign our picks.
[/quote]

Actually, they've probably got enough - or close to enough - space to get their draft picks signed.

[url="http://www.ravens24x7.com/columns/The-Money-Clip-Baltimore-Ravens-Salary-Cap-Analysis/An-Explanation-of-how-the-Rookie-Salary-Cap-Really-Works"]http://www.ravens24x7.com/columns/The-Money-Clip-Baltimore-Ravens-Salary-Cap-Analysis/An-Explanation-of-how-the-Rookie-Salary-Cap-Really-Works[/url]

That said, they are going to have to do something to create some wiggle room for injury replacements during the season. I doubt they end up releasing anyone - getting Rice and Flacco done might be enough or they're going to have to restructure a deal or two.

[Hardbaugh]

I admit Rice is my favorite Raven , that said he has to be realistic about negotiations. Shooting for a Peterson like contract if that's what he's seeking a deal will never get done and at some point which could be years away he will either lose his bargaining power by injury, another player stepping up, effectiveness and probably other factors.

Under the franchise tag he'll still make great money but he's risking long term financial security by doing so.

I have a feeling the Ravens are treating him fairly because of past dealings with other players and have a hard time believeing the Ravens aren't atleast in the Arian Foster neighborhood with dollars.

That said, it might benefit the Ravens for Rice to hold out even if it were to drag into training camp-

He has great work ethic
More reps for backup players at the position
Rice is not risking himself to injury
Less wear and tear on him as the season wears on
I'm certain the forum can add to the list.

[CapoRocky]

Meanwhile, send Allen and Berry out there and let them get some reps in practice.

[The Raven]

Rice tweeted "To all college athletes getting ready to enter the NFL just remember the business side of the league is rough [url="https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23fact"][s][color="#66b5d2"]#[/color][/s][b][color="#0084b4"]fact[/color][/b][/url]"

Yeah... must be rough to be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to play football!

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334619469' post='1049869']
Rice tweeted "To all college athletes getting ready to enter the NFL just remember the business side of the league is rough [url="https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23fact"][s][color="#66b5d2"]#[/color][/s][b][color="#0084b4"]fact[/color][/b][/url]"

Yeah... must be rough to be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to play football!
[/quote]
I feel you on that, but I will defend Rice here regardless of how I disliked his tweet when I read it.

I think what he is saying is that sometimes you have to remember the NFL is a business and have to handle things as such. I truly believe Ray Rice loves football and wants to be here with not just his team but his second family. The truth is that Rice is doing what makes sense--he is not reporting to the team workouts because if he gets injured or something that's going to really hurt his negotiating.

So, I don't think his comments are causatic as much as they are showing that he laments not being able to be there with his teammates due to the business side of things.

[The Raven]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1334619930' post='1049876']
I feel you on that, but I will defend Rice here regardless of how I disliked his tweet when I read it.

I think what he is saying is that sometimes you have to remember the NFL is a business and have to handle things as such. I truly believe Ray Rice loves football and wants to be here with not just his team but his second family. The truth is that Rice is doing what makes sense--he is not reporting to the team workouts because if he gets injured or something that's going to really hurt his negotiating.

So, I don't think his comments are causatic as much as they are showing that he laments not being able to be there with his teammates due to the business side of things.
[/quote]

I feel that. But there are highschool and college players puttin in the same work for no money. The same risk of injury! I can't feel sympathy for him.

Whatever happened to the love of the game? What happened to heart? Why has money and greed taken place of fun, love, and heart?

[admartian]

[quote name='FerrariFan87' timestamp='1333559766' post='1042054']
I was taken aback when Rice said that without the Franchise Tag he would've signed with another team... really? He wouldn't have given us a chance to re-sign him? Hopefully the Ravens can just get his deal done already to open up some cap space and keep him in the fold for the foreseeable future.
[/quote]Screw that!

I am (was) a BIG fan of Rice - both on and off the field. But right now, he's lokoing like a spoilt brat, that doesn't undertand the nature of his position in the business that he's in.

That's like a VHS salesman complaining about why he's not getting paid as much as the BluRay guy or the Digital Distribution guy.

Point is, his position is devalued due to the nature of the game.

Either understand that and move on, or find something else to do.

[The Raven]

[quote name='admartian' timestamp='1334620294' post='1049881']
Screw that!

I am (was) a BIG fan of Rice - both on and off the field. But right now, he's lokoing like a spoilt brat, that doesn't undertand the nature of his position in the business that he's in.

That's like a VHS salesman complaining about why he's not getting paid as much as the BluRay guy or the Digital Distribution guy.

Point is, his position is devalued due to the nature of the game.

Either understand that and move on, or find something else to do.
[/quote]

Wait, did Rice actually say he'd sign elsewhere? Screw that!

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334620213' post='1049880']


I feel that. But there are highschool and college players puttin in the same work for no money. The same risk of injury! I can't feel sympathy for him.

Whatever happened to the love of the game? What happened to heart? Why has money and greed taken place of fun, love, and heart?
[/quote]
I'm with you on the love for the game and all. I think MLB players get too compensated for their value. But let me say something about football players and especially running backs.

The problem is that I have no doubts about Rice's love for the game and I believe he does play for the love of the game. The problem is the medical side of things. First, healthcare is expensive and it is getting more expensive. Football players and athletes have a difficult time when it comes to health insurance because they have a high risk of getting injured. It's like auto insurance. If I wreck my car, my insurance will go up. They are wrecking their bodies. Their deductibles and premiums are probably very high, which would be related to their profession. When you factor in this, it seems reasonable that they get paid a lot of money. But then you might ask: so what, that's why they have team doctors!

This is true. The problem is that when the body is injured repeatedly the body wears out quicker. When you factor in concussions, ACL tears, broken bones, injury to the joints and other ligaments you have structural damage that will lead to osteoarthritis and other debilitating injuries of the neurogical and musculoskeletal varities. Then when it comes to life after football you need someone to pay for your care, and that money that was saved will quickly diminish unless it was appropriately managed.

The RB position is one of those positions where the shelf life is short. Why? Because of the constant damage to their body. They receive more hits than anyone because they typically touch the ball more.

So, in summation the compensation they receive may not be enough to cover them after football. Medical bills can quickly accumulate in expenses, especially medications. Now, if the NFL had a league-wide HMO or a PPO then that's different. Lol.

Hope that explains why I feel like Rice and all these other guys who hold out have a reason to do so to a certain extent because of the shelf life that they all have.

[The Raven]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1334621800' post='1049902']
I'm with you on the love for the game and all. I think MLB players get too compensated for their value. But let me say something about football players and especially running backs.

The problem is that I have no doubts about Rice's love for the game and I believe he does play for the love of the game. The problem is the medical side of things. First, healthcare is expensive and it is getting more expensive. Football players and athletes have a difficult time when it comes to health insurance because they have a high risk of getting injured. It's like auto insurance. If I wreck my car, my insurance will go up. They are wrecking their bodies. Their deductibles and premiums are probably very high, which would be related to their profession. When you factor in this, it seems reasonable that they get paid a lot of money. But then you might ask: so what, that's why they have team doctors!

This is true. The problem is that when the body is injured repeatedly the body wears out quicker. When you factor in concussions, ACL tears, broken bones, injury to the joints and other ligaments you have structural damage that will lead to osteoarthritis and other debilitating injuries of the neurogical and musculoskeletal varities. Then when it comes to life after football you need someone to pay for your care, and that money that was saved will quickly diminish unless it was appropriately managed.

The RB position is one of those positions where the shelf life is short. Why? Because of the constant damage to their body. They receive more hits than anyone because they typically touch the ball more.

So, in summation the compensation they receive may not be enough to cover them after football. Medical bills can quickly accumulate in expenses, especially medications. Now, if the NFL had a league-wide HMO or a PPO then that's different. Lol.

Hope that explains why I feel like Rice and all these other guys who hold out have a reason to do so to a certain extent because of the shelf life that they all have.
[/quote]

Yeah, I understand the reason he's holding out and such. It just frustrates me to no end.

[Marc2k6]

The history of holdout RB's is not that great! Anyone know how long Rice can holdout? I thought there were some rule changes that would require a player to report sooner than later.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Marc2k6' timestamp='1334623623' post='1049917']
The history of holdout RB's is not that great! Anyone know how long Rice can holdout? I thought there were some rule changes that would require a player to report sooner than later.
[/quote]
Yes, but he has not yet signed his franchise tag and doesn't have to do so until some time in July (forgot the date). Until he signs his tender (the franchise tag) he technically isn't on the team but also isn't free to go anywhere else. He's in an awkward spot.

Hopefully he won't have to sign his tender because he signs a contract instead.

[B-more Ravor]

[quote name='Marc2k6' timestamp='1334623623' post='1049917']
The history of holdout RB's is not that great! Anyone know how long Rice can holdout? I thought there were some rule changes that would require a player to report sooner than later.
[/quote]

There's no deadline that forces him to sign the franchise tender. It's only happened once, but a franchised player (Sean Gilbert) has sat out an entire season in the past.

If Rice wants to earn an accrued season toward pension benefits, he has to sign by some time in November.

I don't think it will come to that, but I do think it's very possible that he doesn't sign until after the 2nd PS game.

[AsianRice]

Another thing I like to point out too and I know some of us know about it too is that if he signs the tender, he is obligated to attend the training and playing the game; however, if he's injured, 7mil tender can't save him cuz he will not likely get a big, long term contract. Additionally, he will lose the leverage in negociating for the long term deal cuz no one will give a big contract to an injured RB.

His holdout is just for his own protection and also for his family future.

HOWEVER, if he wants AP's money or a bit more than Foster's money, then I don't think Ozzie will give it to him. Ozzie will probably give him a big guaranteed money but less in total like Ngata's contract.

I think he will sign the contract before the official training camp or worse comes to worse we might sign a RB vet to replace him in the meantime.....

PS: I have no problem with Rice's holding out....

[indianstick]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334620213' post='1049880']
I feel that. But there are highschool and college players puttin in the same work for no money. The same risk of injury! I can't feel sympathy for him.

Whatever happened to the love of the game? What happened to heart? Why has money and greed taken place of fun, love, and heart?
[/quote]

uhhh..rice was a highschool and college player, who put in non stop work for no money to get to where he is at right now. Because of all the hardwork, dedication, heart he was able to do what he loves as a living. He basically carried the offense on his back the three years he was a starter while he was being paid in gum. He worked off the field to get better every year. He outplayed his rookie contract without saying a word. Lets not question his love for the game or heart. The best thing about ray rice is his work ethic, he will never spot working. He deserves to get paid just as much as webb did.

[quote name='admartian' timestamp='1334620294' post='1049881']
Screw that!

I am (was) a BIG fan of Rice - both on and off the field. But right now, he's lokoing like a spoilt brat, that doesn't undertand the nature of his position in the business that he's in.

That's like a VHS salesman complaining about why he's not getting paid as much as the BluRay guy or the Digital Distribution guy.

Point is, his position is devalued due to the nature of the game.

Either understand that and move on, or find something else to do.
[/quote]

Rice did say if he wasn't given the franchise tag he would of signed to another team but his point was that if he wasn't given the tag he would of been a free agent. The ravens had their chance to sign him long term and since they weren't able to, the franchise tag was applied. If the franchise tag was not applied he would have been a free agent and another team would of gave him a deal of his liking.

I don't know what type of contract he is looking for or what type of contract our FO is willing to give him but he said before the off season started that he loves baltimore and doesn't want to be anywhere else. He also said that he would eventually play on the franchise tag if a long term deal did not get done. Call me naive but I believe him. So, i don't expect him to "hold out" any longer than the july deadline.

No one should question rice's heart, because he wears it on his sleeve.

[Irish Raven]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334620213' post='1049880']

Whatever happened to the love of the game? What happened to heart? Why has money and greed taken place of fun, love, and heart?
[/quote]

Look at it from the other side

What happened to honoring contracts?
Kelly Gregg, Derrick Mason and Todd Heap all had contracts for a set number of years and the front office broke the contracts like it was nothing.

Teams have no loyalty, zero at all. Just business they say, time to move on

A player who thinks the same way gets called greedy though??

[MsMarvel73]

The workouts that have started are VOLUNTARY!!!! not mandatory.

I'll be worried if lil Ray doesn't show up for training camp.

[RAYvenFan20]

cant blame a RB for wanting to get paid, they generally get one maybe 2 good contracts in their life while other positions (linemen, pretty much anyone on d and qbs) can still get the big money 10 years into the league. but still cmon ray... plz

[rayrayven]

Rice was the steal of his draft. He should have been a first rounder but flashy guys "seemed" to look better compared to Ray's size. I would have never taken Pencil Legs McFadden over Ray RIce. McFadden cramped up and left his biggest game oif the year in 2007. He was a sprinter who zipped up the field through large holes. I knew he would be hurt a lot in NFL. He got a 60+ mil contract with 20+ guaranteed. Rice meanwhile has outproduced almost all in his draft and done it for relative preanuts. A lot of guys would have held out before their contract was up. The main story of Ray's career has been how he has massively outperformed his contract in relation to his draft class (a strong one). He delivered like a blue chip while being paid like a long snap special teamer. He did it all while being a solid citizen too. Seeing how Forte (in Ray's class) went down last year I don't begrudge Ray doing what he has to. Screw trhe "for the love of trhe game" bs because he's done that the last years and know its time for him to think iof himself (and Ray spends A LOT of money on charities and local camps)

[dirtybird10]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334620213' post='1049880']
I feel that. But there are highschool and college players puttin in the same work for no money. The same risk of injury! I can't feel sympathy for him.

Whatever happened to the love of the game? What happened to heart? Why has money and greed taken place of fun, love, and heart?
[/quote]

Dude although I understand where you are coming from (us 9-5ers who would give anything to have that kind of talent/income). You have to understand this is a business. Rice put in his time playing for nothing through high school and college and his hard work is being rewarded now. You have to be able to take emotion out of this if you ever want to look at it rationally. Rice is one injury away from the team dropping him like he was hot, and he would not make an NFL dime again. He is going to make sure his money is made when he can make it. The nature of his position alone is a shorter than average lifespan in the NFL. Now we can dissect his rhetoric all we want and find things to complain about, but Rice is going to do what he thinks is best to make sure he gets paid. This is not the first time a player has done so, and some players have been worse about it than Rice. Just let the system work, and let Ozzie do what he does. A deal will get done.

[dirtybird10]

[quote name='Irish Raven' timestamp='1334671245' post='1050125']
Look at it from the other side

What happened to honoring contracts?
Kelly Gregg, Derrick Mason and Todd Heap all had contracts for a set number of years and the front office broke the contracts like it was nothing.

Teams have no loyalty, zero at all. Just business they say, time to move on

A player who thinks the same way gets called greedy though??
[/quote]

No doubt, that is what fans tend to forget. Our team (although a great and very classy organization) would kick a player to the curb the second we see it beneficial. That is just the nature of the business they are in. We can not afford to waste money or roster spots on players that can be replaced. The organization knows it, and the players know it. On the other hand the Players need to make sure they make their money now as this income will only be around for a few years a decade at most. One injury, one under performing season and they could be out of work. Neither side is wrong for wanting to improve themselves. There can be exceptions of course, but this is nothing unusual. I'm pretty sure Ray Lewis has even had contract issues in the past.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='Irish Raven' timestamp='1334671245' post='1050125']
Look at it from the other side

What happened to honoring contracts?
Kelly Gregg, Derrick Mason and Todd Heap all had contracts for a set number of years and the front office broke the contracts like it was nothing.

Teams have no loyalty, zero at all. Just business they say, time to move on

A player who thinks the same way gets called greedy though??
[/quote]

They get guaranteed money that is part of that deal. They get more guaranteed money when they sign for multiple years. And we didn't break it "like it was nothing," that's how the system is. The deals are made with full knowledge of the terms of NFL contracts, and a new CBA was just negotiated.

I understand that he may not want to come to these workouts, but waiting to sign his franchise tag leaves him open to getting injured doing something unrelated to football. I don't really know what would happen in that case, but I imagine it would cost him some money. Seems like you're taking a risk either way. If you sign your franchise tag and get injured in practice, at least you still get that money.

[bpytnjr58]

Just hope this does not get ugly like the Chris Johnson hold out in Tennesse....once he got paid he flopped.

[AsianRice]

[quote name='bpytnjr58' timestamp='1334690223' post='1050369']
Just hope this does not get ugly like the Chris Johnson hold out in Tennesse....once he got paid he flopped.
[/quote]
That would suck bad and I think it won't happen to Rice after he signs big contract...

PS: Our fans know Rice more than knowing anyone in league so we all know what it will turn out....