Flacco Wouldn't Make It On Another Team?

[cursona pirate]

[quote name='Moderator 3' timestamp='1334160446' post='1046990']
Thanks, callahan. I feel like printing that out and framing it.
[/quote]
I saved it on a word document. Just gonna pull it up whenever the board needs it.

[da#1ravensfan]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1334110273' post='1046823']
My question is why does Joe Flacco need these many threads if he is such an incredible QB? No one has said he is the worst QB, people just think he isn't a Top 5 or Top 10. There have been drops, there have been drops for every QB. He is better than most but not the best. The more you put him on a pedestal or talk him up, the harder the criticism.

Just drop it and let it be....let his performances speak for themselves, you think Phillip Rivers or Big Ben have this many threads proving their worth?
[/quote]
Big Ben receivers dont drop key passes in clutch situations (Santonio Holmes Super Bowl). Besides Welkers drop in Super Bowl Tom Brady receivers dont drop key passes. Peyton Manning receivers dont drop key passes. How come when in key situations Joe Flacco receivers drop passes when they hit them right between the numbers.

[RavensButterfly]

[quote name='callahan09' timestamp='1334160152' post='1046986']
OK, I'll bite:

There have been 54 quarterbacks since 1970 to start at least 74 games including the post-season (for the record, Joe Flacco has started 73, not yet 74).

Among those 54 players, the average QB rating for their first 73 starts is 82.5.
The average QB rating for all games started after that (74th and on) is 85.0.

So the average QB to start that many games actually does perform better in the later games, even if it is only a 3.1% performance increase.

The most significant examples of a performance jump in their 74th start and on are:

[u]Player Name: First 73 Games -> 74th Game & On (# of Games Past 73)[/u]
[size=6][b]Peyton Manning: 84.7 -> 98.9 (154)[/b][/size]
[size=5][b]Eli Manning: 77.0 -> 89.6 (57)[/b][/size]
[b]Tom Brady: 87.8 -> 100.2 (108)[/b]
[size=4][b]Drew Brees: 88.0 -> 99.2 (89)[/b][/size]
[b][size=3]Michael Vick: 76.1 -> 91.2 (25)[/size][/b]

[size=4]That's 5 current players with a huge jump after 74 starts... Joe Flacco is sitting at an 84.2 rating in his 73 starts, which is above average for QBs in their first 73 starts, and is pretty comparable to Peyton Manning, as well as not being too far off from Brady and Brees, and much better than Eli and Vick. So if those 5 players could mark such a huge jump in performance after 74 starts, then the precedent is set, you've seen the evidence, and it can be done.[/size]

We should also look at this excluding the post-season. Flacco has 64 regular season starts.

There are 65 quarterbacks since 1970 who have started at least 65 regular season games. Of them, the average QB rating in the first 64 starts is 81.9, which then jumps up to an 85.1 average in starts 65+. So once again, we have the average quarterback who has had that much playing time being better in his later starts after 64 starts. This time it's a 3.9% average increase.

This time you've got:

Peyton Manning: 85.1 -> 99.3 (144)
Tom Brady: 87.6 -> 102.2 (95)
Drew Brees: 85.6 -> 98.9 (89)
Eli Manning: 75.5 -> 89.7 (55)
Michael Vick: 75.6 -> 91.7 (29)

Joe Flacco has an 86.0 in his first 64 regular season starts. So there is some precedent for players with a rating like that going on to average around 100 QB rating thereafter (Peyton Manning, Brady, Brees).
[/quote]

This is a serious piece of work right here. Riveting actually. Hater blocker for sure. I'm gonna print this out, fold it up and keep this thing in my back pocket to whip out as needed. Maybe keep one in my glove compartment next to my Geico insurance card.

It's also very encouraging and reassuring. Numbers don't usually lie. Even among the Flacco supporters there are a small segment of us who believe we have a gem in Joe Flacco and that people who compare him with the likes of Mark Sanchez aren't really human beings but clearly positrons from the planet Neptar put here to screw with people with common sense. When he startes clowning teams and destroying defenses on a regular basis, while being talked about with the likes of Brady and the elite few, we'll be able to sit back and say I told you so.

I'm wondering if you could throw some numbers together to show what the oracle says about the fate of some of the mediocre qb's Joe's regularly compared to.

[Blex64]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1334156636' post='1046964']
My apologies GC, I'll look at your post and add some as well if I see some missing that I believe are better.

Here's who I would take that are on your list...

[color=#282828]Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers-[/color]

[color=#282828]Quarterbacks that would make the Ravens better right now that aren't on the list, [b]Tony Romo[/b], Matt Schaub, [b]Matt Stafford[/b].[/color]

Who I think would make the Ravens better this season and the coming years that haven't peaked yet and aren't on your list...
[b]Cam Newton[/b],[b] Andy Dalton[/b].

I'd take[b] Luck [/b]or [b]Robert Griffin[/b] , obviously both without a down of NFL football under their belt over Flacco right now...

There's a long list of mid range quarterbacks that are able to provide mediocre numbers some of them I'd take ahead of Flacco. I believe the Ravens personel would help them put up better numbers than Flacco, Freeman and Bradford would be in that group.
[/quote]

I know you've already been shredded, but I'm going to keep laughing at the bolded.

[Ed_Reed20]

As flawed as the QB rating stat is, kudos on the research and organized breakdown, callahan.

Joe obviously has the talent and has shown flashes of being able to play on the same level as QBs widely regarded as being better than him. It's mainly about improving his consistency.

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='callahan09' timestamp='1334160152' post='1046986']
OK, I'll bite:

There have been 54 quarterbacks since 1970 to start at least 74 games including the post-season (for the record, Joe Flacco has started 73, not yet 74).

Among those 54 players, the average QB rating for their first 73 starts is 82.5.
The average QB rating for all games started after that (74th and on) is 85.0.

So the average QB to start that many games actually does perform better in the later games, even if it is only a 3.1% performance increase.

The most significant examples of a performance jump in their 74th start and on are:

[u]Player Name: First 73 Games -> 74th Game & On (# of Games Past 73)[/u]
[size=6][b]Peyton Manning: 84.7 -> 98.9 (154)[/b][/size]
[size=5][b]Eli Manning: 77.0 -> 89.6 (57)[/b][/size]
[b]Tom Brady: 87.8 -> 100.2 (108)[/b]
[size=4][b]Drew Brees: 88.0 -> 99.2 (89)[/b][/size]
[b][size=3]Michael Vick: 76.1 -> 91.2 (25)[/size][/b]

[size=4]That's 5 current players with a huge jump after 74 starts... Joe Flacco is sitting at an 84.2 rating in his 73 starts, which is above average for QBs in their first 73 starts, and is pretty comparable to Peyton Manning, as well as not being too far off from Brady and Brees, and much better than Eli and Vick. So if those 5 players could mark such a huge jump in performance after 74 starts, then the precedent is set, you've seen the evidence, and it can be done.[/size]

We should also look at this excluding the post-season. Flacco has 64 regular season starts.

There are 65 quarterbacks since 1970 who have started at least 65 regular season games. Of them, the average QB rating in the first 64 starts is 81.9, which then jumps up to an 85.1 average in starts 65+. So once again, we have the average quarterback who has had that much playing time being better in his later starts after 64 starts. This time it's a 3.9% average increase.

This time you've got:

Peyton Manning: 85.1 -> 99.3 (144)
Tom Brady: 87.6 -> 102.2 (95)
Drew Brees: 85.6 -> 98.9 (89)
Eli Manning: 75.5 -> 89.7 (55)
Michael Vick: 75.6 -> 91.7 (29)

Joe Flacco has an 86.0 in his first 64 regular season starts. So there is some precedent for players with a rating like that going on to average around 100 QB rating thereafter (Peyton Manning, Brady, Brees).
[/quote]

Very nice job at putting this together Callahan. The way I look at it your whole package is proof of my earlier post, and the 3.1% number proves my point. Even some of the great quarterbacks have poor numbers early which lowers their overall rating in comparison to post 75 starts.

Again, thanks for the leg work. I'll hope the Flacco can do better than 3.1 % but pretty much he is what we're seeing and that's not even close to elite numbers.

[ravensfan520]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334109516' post='1046813']


He "delivered" the ball right into Evan's hands.

And we're not flaming you, just pointing out that you don't present any real evidence to support your claim.
[/quote]

I have left the Evans pass alone but since it was brought up I'll comment on it. The route that was run looked like a timing route... run to the end zone and turn. The ball was thrown around his waste and anyone who has every caught a football knows that you can't get your hands on it but under it to catch the ball. And when he did and got his feet down the ball was knocked out. Was it a bad throw no... the defensive player just made the right play and knocked it out. If Flacco had a thrown a ball that he could have got his hands on instead of under he would have secured the ball. But on the next play he throws the ball to a covered(held) Pitta instead of running for the extra yards or endzone. No one was close to him. So if are going to blame the wr the kicker we need to blame everybody. We left plays on the field that lost us the game not just the Evans play. Including in the int that our defense got back for us.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1334155714' post='1046952']
I count 10 teams that maybe could be interested in bringing this guy aboard if he were available
[/quote]

Then you need to learn how to count.

[Alexir]

[quote name='da#1ravensfan' timestamp='1334163840' post='1047017']
Big Ben receivers dont drop key passes in clutch situations (Santonio Holmes Super Bowl). Besides Welkers drop in Super Bowl Tom Brady receivers dont drop key passes. Peyton Manning receivers dont drop key passes. How come when in key situations Joe Flacco receivers drop passes when they hit them right between the numbers.
[/quote]

Even with the drops, check out his completion percentage.

Apparently, for Flacco to be a great QB in your people's eyes is he needs better pass protection and better receivers. Doesn't that just make him a normal QB at that point if he has those weapons around him?...

[The Raven]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1334173976' post='1047140']
I have left the Evans pass alone but since it was brought up I'll comment on it. The route that was run looked like a timing route... run to the end zone and turn. The ball was thrown around his around his waste and anyone who has every caught a football knows that you can't get your hands on it but under it to catch the ball. And when he did and got his feet down the ball was knocked out. Was it a bad throw no... the defensive player just made the right play and knocked it out. If Flacco had a thrown a ball that he could have got his hands on instead of under he would have secured the ball. But on the next play he throws the ball to a covered(held) Pitta instead of running for the extra yards or endzone. No one was close to him. So if are going to blame the wr the kicker we need to blame everybody. We left plays on the field that lost us the game not just the Evans play. Including in the int that our defense got back for us.
[/quote]

The ball was in his hands. Then he dropped it. End of story, bye bye.

[Blex64]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1334173976' post='1047140']
I have left the Evans pass alone but since it was brought up I'll comment on it. The route that was run looked like a timing route... run to the end zone and turn. The ball was thrown around his waste and anyone who has every caught a football knows that you can't get your hands on it but under it to catch the ball. And when he did and got his feet down the ball was knocked out. Was it a bad throw no... the defensive player just made the right play and knocked it out. If Flacco had a thrown a ball that he could have got his hands on instead of under he would have secured the ball. But on the next play he throws the ball to a covered(held) Pitta instead of running for the extra yards or endzone. No one was close to him. So if are going to blame the wr the kicker we need to blame everybody. We left plays on the field that lost us the game not just the Evans play. Including in the int that our defense got back for us.
[/quote]

The ball was in his hands. Seriously. In his hands. It was 100% Lee's fault.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1334192224' post='1047366']
The ball was in his hands. Seriously. In his hands. It was 100% Lee's fault.
[/quote]

I didn't think it was even possible to say that it's not Evans' fault.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334192983' post='1047372']
I didn't think it was even possible to say that it's not Evans' fault.
[/quote]
Evans even went to Ozzie about it, but Ozzie said "Talk to the finger, Lee!" and shut the door.

At least, that's the rated-R version of what I heard.

[MIkepoly]

I don't have a problem with Joe but he's an okay QB but he is not great. I'm not asking for him to throw for 4000-4500 yards a season but before he starts trying to get Brady or Manning type Money his completion percentage definitely needs to change. AND HOLD ON TO THE FOOTBALL I'M JUST SAYING JOE.. Just change those two things and we might get more than your average Joe.

[ravensfan520]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1334192983' post='1047372']


I didn't think it was even possible to say that it's not Evans' fault.
[/quote]

I didn't... I said it was a great play by the defender...
when our defense got all the int and batted balls against the Texans did anybody say it was the qbs fault or just think they were good plays. Because those balls were thrown directed to our defense.

If Shaub was playing that day the Evans argument would never have happened... the topic would be about why couldn't our offense score against them after we beat them earlier in the year.

And now that Evans is gone and if we draft a wr and Flacco doesn't produce what will it be then... he didn't get the contract he wanted he doesn't have the weapons he needs... I mean really... Flacco fans are getting as bad as the Jets with Sanchez. Yes he is a good qb but our offense is average at best and we have weapons and why hasn't Boldin produced like he did in Arizona maybe just Maybe its our qb. I hope Caldwell can use his magic and proove me wrong. Is it just me that believes that going to the playoffs and losing in whatever game we do does nothing more than give us a later draft pick... I want superbowls.

Oh and to say Flacco is the best we have had as a qb isn't saying much since the Ravens have only been in he league since 96. And before that they were the Browns and no one performs well in Cleveland just look at their qb history.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1334235363' post='1047522'].... why hasn't Boldin produced like he did in Arizona maybe just Maybe its our qb...
[/quote]

Him getting older and a change in scheme are much bigger reasons why Boldin hasn't put up big numbers since the team traded for him than Joe's play. There's no doubt Joe has failed to see him when he was open or throw an accurate ball his way numerous times. But Boldin has had his fair share of ugly drops as well, especially last season.

His game in Arizona was built on turning short catches into bigger gains and moving the chains. As a Raven, he's been targeted further down the field significantly more (we all know who's fault that is). DBs still have a tough time bringing him down, but he clearly isn't as sudden in his movements as he was in his prime.

[Blex64]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1334235363' post='1047522']
I didn't... I said it was a great play by the defender...
when our defense got all the int and batted balls against the Texans did anybody say it was the qbs fault or just think they were good plays. Because those balls were thrown directed to our defense.

If Shaub was playing that day the Evans argument would never have happened... the topic would be about why couldn't our offense score against them after we beat them earlier in the year.

And now that Evans is gone and if we draft a wr and Flacco doesn't produce what will it be then... he didn't get the contract he wanted he doesn't have the weapons he needs... I mean really... Flacco fans are getting as bad as the Jets with Sanchez. Yes he is a good qb but our offense is average at best and we have weapons and why hasn't Boldin produced like he did in Arizona [b]maybe just Maybe its our qb.[/b] I hope Caldwell can use his magic and proove me wrong. Is it just me that believes that going to the playoffs and losing in whatever game we do does nothing more than give us a later draft pick... I want superbowls.

Oh and to say Flacco is the best we have had as a qb isn't saying much since the Ravens have only been in he league since 96. And before that they were the Browns and no one performs well in Cleveland just look at their qb history.
[/quote]

Maybe, just maybe, its our offensive coordinator.

I just don't get why we keep bringing him back. Queue definition of insanity and all that.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1334248425' post='1047621']
[b]Maybe, just maybe, its our offensive coordinator.[/b]

I just don't get why we keep bringing him back. Queue definition of insanity and all that.
[/quote]

You should stop with that nonsense. No excuses!!!

[CapoRocky]

Just ask any group of kids around Baltimore about the Evans play and they will tell you that he cost us a game. Pitta was held but Flacco didn't want to risk a fumble by running. Maybe he could have made it. I'm sure Tebow would have run and probably would have made at least a first down. Does this mean that I'd rather have Tebow instead of Flacco? No! One person that regrets Evans letting the game slip away was Cundiff. He would never have been the goat of the game if it wasn't for Evans.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1334248425' post='1047621']


Maybe, just maybe, its our offensive coordinator.

I just don't get why we keep bringing him back. Queue definition of insanity and all that.
[/quote]

Let's not start the predraft party off with another "FIRE CAMERON!" thread.

[CapoRocky]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1334238596' post='1047550']


Him getting older and a change in scheme are much bigger reasons why Boldin hasn't put up big numbers since the team traded for him than Joe's play. There's no doubt Joe has failed to see him when he was open or throw an accurate ball his way numerous times. But Boldin has had his fair share of ugly drops as well, especially last season.

His game in Arizona was built on turning short catches into bigger gains and moving the chains. As a Raven, he's been targeted further down the field significantly more (we all know who's fault that is). DBs still have a tough time bringing him down, but he clearly isn't as sudden in his movements as he was in his prime.
[/quote]

I know what we should do. Draft Hill and train Doss to take over Q's spot after his contract is up.

[Blex64]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1334265728' post='1047804']
Let's not start the predraft party off with another "FIRE CAMERON!" thread.
[/quote]

Lol. Why not? We have above-average talent on an offense that constantly under-performs. Wonder why!

[3-4ravdef509]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1334108731' post='1046800']
Flacco is anything but a choke artist, regardless of how vehemently you try to deny it.
[/quote]

If anything, he plays better in big moments and worse when it's supposed to be easy...lol.

I've stopped defending Flacco because in my eyes he can defend himself. He's a damn good quarterback and I know he's going to win a couple of rings before it's said and done. Flacco doesn't have any glaring flaws, he just needs refined a bit more, which Caldwell will definitely help with IMO.

[redrum52]

Flacco could, would and has made it on another team. In my fantasy Madden team he won the big game throwing over 2 tds while on the Vikings.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1334265826' post='1047805']
I know what we should do. Draft Hill and train Doss to take over Q's spot after his contract is up.
[/quote]

Hill isn't the end-all-be-all at WR. As for Doss, I'm going to wait till after the draft to speculate on his future. Depending on who the organization drafts, it may be tough for him to make an impact next season.

Staying on-topic, Joe's a good QB...

[admartian]

[quote name='callahan09' timestamp='1334152503' post='1046935']
Jacksonville was a debacle for our entire offense, not Joe Flacco's fault. Seattle wasn't Flacco's fault either. His kicker missed 2 field goal attempts, and his kick returner fumbled the ball twice, and then shambled decent field position on his one good return by committing a personal foul at the end of it for a 15 yard penalty to pin us back with poor field position again. Flacco's last possession of the game he got us a touchdown. If the defense could have gotten us the ball back with 6 minutes left, Flacco could have scored again and gotten the win. But the defense couldn't get us the ball back with SIX MINUTES left on the clock.

[b]And then you say things like, What he did in Pittsburgh was not clutch, it's just doing his job. Hahaha. So in your estimation, there's no such thing as clutch. There's just doing your job or being UNclutch. That's not a fair standard at all.[/b]
[/quote]I completely agree with this.

If you think then by all Flacco's accomplishments, that it was [i]just [/i]his job then you musn't think anyone in the NFL is clutch. Because what he did was indeed clutch.

Unless off course, like stated, you don't believe in clutch, then and only then would make that a fair comment. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]

[sman555555]

well we have caldwell now so lets see if he can turn him into super flacco

[rlh445]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1334156942' post='1046965']
I don't know why everyone made such a big deal out of Flacco saying that he is the best. Have you ever listened to one of Ray Lewis's motivational speeches? He often says things like you have to believe that you are the best. When you get up in the morning you must go out believing that you are the best. When you play the game of football you must think that you are the best player ever to play the game. Flacco is just doing what Lewis has told him to do. He is trying to be the best.
[/quote]

I hope you won't take this as picking on you, but I just have to say: Ray Lewis spent a considerable amount of his career literally being The Best In The World At What He Does[color=#444444][font=sans-serif, arial,]™.[/font][/color]

[Guest RBates]

Flacco is a very slightly above average quarterback with potential. I have no idea what the debate is about. Some of you need to get real. Ray Rice two time Pro Bowl running back, and your quarterback is still average...

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1334238596' post='1047550']
Him getting older and a change in scheme are much bigger reasons why Boldin hasn't put up big numbers since the team traded for him than Joe's play. There's no doubt Joe has failed to see him when he was open or throw an accurate ball his way numerous times. But Boldin has had his fair share of ugly drops as well, especially last season.

His game in Arizona was built on turning short catches into bigger gains and moving the chains. As a Raven, he's been targeted further down the field significantly more (we all know who's fault that is). DBs still have a tough time bringing him down, but he clearly isn't as sudden in his movements as he was in his prime.
[/quote] Wasn't it you that i told he was not a true number one receiver. Wow....... look at us now......I am the voice of reason and Flacco is AVERAGE.