Flacco Wouldn't Make It On Another Team?

[Alexir]

[quote name='Blex64' timestamp='1334110694' post='1046839']
It does. He's a good quarterback who needs to take the next step to become one of the league's elite passers, and he's one of the better QB's in that group. Arguing he's not clutch, especially after this year, is absurd.
[/quote]

yeah, He proved how clutch he was with wins in Pittsburgh but he isn't quite Peyton Manning or Tom Brady Clutch. but he has taken positive steps, hopefully year 5 will be better for him.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1334110645' post='1046837']
Nah, Just sick of these threads popping up every week whining about how Flacco gets no respect. it gets old.
[/quote]

Yeah, it was old two years ago...

[flynismo]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1334110876' post='1046844']
yeah, He proved how clutch he was with wins in Pittsburgh but he isn't quite [b]Peyton Manning or Tom Brady Clutch[/b]. but he has taken positive steps, hopefully year 5 will be better for him.
[/quote]

That's where all the stupid arguments stem from. People can't accept the fact that Flacco isn't Peyton Manning after just four seasons. If people can accept that, these threads will die!

[Alexir]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1334110876' post='1046845']
Yeah, it was old two years ago...
[/quote]

They will be still probably popping up 2 years from now too

[flynismo]

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1334110636' post='1046836']
Its me against all you I love Flacco fans holding each others hands. I'll leave and let you all embrace. [i]<Deleted>[/i]
[/quote]

I think that about sums up what reasonable people have to deal with when it comes to Flacco.

[Clutch Ravens]

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1334106980' post='1046780']
How can you call [b]Romo, Fitz, Matty Ice and co.[/b] Choke artists when Flacco is in the same exact boat. He's in the same tier as guys like Cutler, Romo, Sanchez.
[/quote]

Because Flacco has more playoff wins than all those choke artists put together. He was one awful Evans drop away from putting us in the Super Bowl. Flacco takes the heat for it, but his supporting cast (receivers) has let him down on numerous occasions in big games.

[GrimCoconut]

To all of the people who hate or wish we had a different QB, who would you take over Joe Flacco right now?

[b]Peyton Manning[/b]: a future HoF QB for sure, but is he recovered from that neck injury? Can he get back to his old form? And even if he does, will he even be in the league much longer? I'm doubtful that he can last 6 more years in this league. I don't even know if he can last 4 more years.

[b]Tom Brady[/b]: Getting older, but he is one of the best without a doubt. I like Brady more than Manning, but regardless of how you feel about him he is a good QB who is a smart player. Would you take him over Flacco? Probably. But how many more years does he have?

[b]Aaron Rodgers[/b]: Okay, sure, he looks very good. I can't say I wouldn't take him over Flacco. He's younger than Brady & Manning, and he has a good future ahead of him.

[b]Drew Brees[/b]: Sure, he is better than Flacco but how much longer can he play at that level? Again, he's getting older. He could probably last another 5 years, but how much longer than that?

So, out of the clear top-4 QBs in the NFL, I would say only one of them is truly entering the top of his game and that is Rodgers. Brees, Manning, and Brady are all getting older and are at the peak of their career, though some of them may start to decline sooner than later.

After the top-4, who's next?

[b]Eli Manning[/b]: He's won two Super Bowls, so he has to be somewhat good. He sure looked impressive this year. I think he's taken a big step, and I think he's finally reaching his potential. I would say right now he is better than Flacco, though there are some serious similarities between E. Manning & J. Flacco.

[b]Ben Roethlisberger[/b]: He has won enough Super Bowls and appeared in enough to get credit. He is better than Flacco, but I'm not so sure how much longer he will be. Ben is getting injured more and more, and I am not sure how long his body can stave off the inevitable decline he will suffer and it will be rapid. Right now, he's one of the best even if he does hold onto the ball too long and even with his poor decisions at times. I wouldn't take him over Flacco, though. He's going to begin to decline due to the way he plays the game.

Honestly, after this I would rank the other guys at the same level as Joe Flacco, because each one of these guys has something that holds them back from being elite. I would undoubtedly choose none of them over Flacco.

[b]Michael Vick[/b]: He's injury-prone, getting older, and will most likely not survive long due to the way he plays the game. He is similar to Ben because of how he sustains injuries due to his play-style, though Vick runs whereas Ben buys time. I wouldn't choose Vick over Matt Ryan, let alone Joe Flacco.

[b]Matt Ryan[/b]: weak arm, never won a playoff game, doesn't perform well in the playoffs, we've all had this discussion. The bottom-line is that I don't see him any better than Flacco. Some things he does better than Joe, and some things Joe does better than he does. Right now, they are equal if not a slight edge in Flacco's favor due to his wins. I wouldn't take him over Joe.

[b]Philip Rivers[/b]: I think Rivers is vastly overrated. I don't think he will be the QB he was after losing VJax. I think his receivers are better than he is. He had a bad year and even though he played hot two years ago I don't think he is the QB people think he is. He's good, fiery, and has a strong arm but I just don't think he is elite. I would take Joe over Rivers mainly because of upside. I think Flacco has more room to improve, whereas Rivers has possibly reached his potential.

So, who would I take over Flacco? Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady if I want to win right now. Manning, Ben, & Vick are risks due to age & injuries. Ryan & Rivers are inconsistent, similar to Flacco. Give me what we know since they are in the same boat.

[cobrajet]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1334111648' post='1046855']
To all of the people who hate or wish we had a different QB, who would you take over Joe Flacco right now?

[b]Peyton Manning[/b]: a future HoF QB for sure, but is he recovered from that neck injury? Can he get back to his old form? And even if he does, will he even be in the league much longer? I'm doubtful that he can last 6 more years in this league. I don't even know if he can last 4 more years.

[b]Tom Brady[/b]: Getting older, but he is one of the best without a doubt. I like Brady more than Manning, but regardless of how you feel about him he is a good QB who is a smart player. Would you take him over Flacco? Probably. But how many more years does he have?

[b]Aaron Rodgers[/b]: Okay, sure, he looks very good. I can't say I wouldn't take him over Flacco. He's younger than Brady & Manning, and he has a good future ahead of him.

[b]Drew Brees[/b]: Sure, he is better than Flacco but how much longer can he play at that level? Again, he's getting older. He could probably last another 5 years, but how much longer than that?

So, out of the clear top-4 QBs in the NFL, I would say only one of them is truly entering the top of his game and that is Rodgers. Brees, Manning, and Brady are all getting older and are at the peak of their career, though some of them may start to decline sooner than later.

After the top-4, who's next?

[b]Eli Manning[/b]: He's won two Super Bowls, so he has to be somewhat good. He sure looked impressive this year. I think he's taken a big step, and I think he's finally reaching his potential. I would say right now he is better than Flacco, though there are some serious similarities between E. Manning & J. Flacco.

[b]Ben Roethlisberger[/b]: He has won enough Super Bowls and appeared in enough to get credit. He is better than Flacco, but I'm not so sure how much longer he will be. Ben is getting injured more and more, and I am not sure how long his body can stave off the inevitable decline he will suffer and it will be rapid. Right now, he's one of the best even if he does hold onto the ball too long and even with his poor decisions at times. I wouldn't take him over Flacco, though. He's going to begin to decline due to the way he plays the game.

Honestly, after this I would rank the other guys at the same level as Joe Flacco, because each one of these guys has something that holds them back from being elite. I would undoubtedly choose none of them over Flacco.

[b]Michael Vick[/b]: He's injury-prone, getting older, and will most likely not survive long due to the way he plays the game. He is similar to Ben because of how he sustains injuries due to his play-style, though Vick runs whereas Ben buys time. I wouldn't choose Vick over Matt Ryan, let alone Joe Flacco.

[b]Matt Ryan[/b]: weak arm, never won a playoff game, doesn't perform well in the playoffs, we've all had this discussion. The bottom-line is that I don't see him any better than Flacco. Some things he does better than Joe, and some things Joe does better than he does. Right now, they are equal if not a slight edge in Flacco's favor due to his wins. I wouldn't take him over Joe.

[b]Philip Rivers[/b]: I think Rivers is vastly overrated. I don't think he will be the QB he was after losing VJax. I think his receivers are better than he is. He had a bad year and even though he played hot two years ago I don't think he is the QB people think he is. He's good, fiery, and has a strong arm but I just don't think he is elite. I would take Joe over Rivers mainly because of upside. I think Flacco has more room to improve, whereas Rivers has possibly reached his potential.

So, who would I take over Flacco? Eli Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady if I want to win right now. Manning, Ben, & Vick are risks due to age & injuries. Ryan & Rivers are inconsistent, similar to Flacco. Give me what we know since they are in the same boat.
[/quote]
Agreed, I would not trade Joe for Vick, Ryan, or Rivers. I think Joe is the 6th best QB in the NFL and I can't wait to see what Caldwell can do for him.

[berad]

I agree with Flacco being a good, accomplished QB who is only getting better and all that but... I didn't need another topic on him. It's the same recycled rhetoric and it's already teetering on flaming.

[Alexir]

[quote name='berad' timestamp='1334112884' post='1046868']
I agree with Flacco being a good, accomplished QB who is only getting better and all that but... I didn't need another topic on him. It's the same recycled rhetoric and it's already teetering on flaming.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[CalvinSmoke]

Yea... these are getting old. Flacco performs at a good level, he makes mistakes, more than we'd like to see. But at the end of the day he's our guy, and he's the best QB we've ever had.Nothing more nothing less.

[flynismo]

In their 2008 "Re-Draft", NFL.com would have drafted Flacco #5 overall, going to KC:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d828341e7/article/flacco-a-chief-cj2k-to-cincy-many-changes-in-08-draft-redo?module=HP11_cp

Interesting, if useless, article

[flaccopoe]

We have a young, record-breaking QB that led our team to the playoffs every year he' sbeen with us. All this Flacco-bashing needs to stop. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/ravensquote.gif[/img]

[scrock]

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1334087980' post='1046641']
They have had basically the same defense for years. Besides players like Carlos Rogers, 30 years old been around the league. Bowman who ourselves amongst other teams have overlooked and watched him slip into the third round. Put those player who were basically unknown into the right system and now they are stars.
Frank Gore has been in San Fran since 2005. But now Harbaugh is there and they are playoff contenders.
John comes to Baltimore and already have a dominant defense, with superstars on our roster. Drafted Ray Rice who in comparison to Gore is also a "beast".
Flacco who obviously is better than Alex Smith, has been babied since being a starter in Baltimore. Harbaugh AND Cam is a huge part of why we have success in Baltimore and our offense.
You cant compare Joe to what we had before, because we always had horrible QB's who aren't even starters in this league.. Besides an aging McNair who almost took us where we needed to go..
[/quote]

The talent was always there but they never put it together, they never played to their strengths which is solid defense and run the ball, the Harbaughs are good coaches but thats not the reason they are winning games

Harbaugh could leave Bmore and we'd still win games....now I dont know about the 49'ers Jim seemed to awaken that team when it had been dead for so many years, the Ravens dont need a rah rah guy...although John can do a lil of that at times

Joe Flacco can get it done, he can carry your offense..he's had to do it when the run game disappears in the playoffs....take away the run from Alex Smith and he's back to throwing more INTs than TDs, etc

your logic is flawed imo

[ThePurpleWall]

[quote name='adam713' timestamp='1334085534' post='1046616']
Show the haters this drive and tell them to [i]<shut up>.[/i]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pQ84OBkngA[/media]

PS: Count the drop balls.
[/quote]

haha yes,i disagree with the "count the drop balls",on a nother note I think Mr Flacco is a good very close to great qb.

[Tiz]

Tbh I don't care. He isn't on any other team he is a raven and fits what the ravens do

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1334114242' post='1046876']
In their 2008 "Re-Draft", NFL.com would have drafted Flacco #5 overall, going to KC:

[url="http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d828341e7/article/flacco-a-chief-cj2k-to-cincy-many-changes-in-08-draft-redo?module=HP11_cp"]http://www.nfl.com/n...?module=HP11_cp[/url]

Interesting, if useless, article
[/quote]

That's elliot harrison too. That guy is a big flacco hater.

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1334110339' post='1046826']
Flacco is the las player I would call clutch. He did his job against Pittsburgh that's what he gets paid to do. He tore up NE, so did other QBs. what the heck happened against Jacksonville, Seattle... Clutch? LMAO
[/quote]

When all the stars align Flacco has shown the ability to do well. You have to chuckle at some of the excuses these people throw out. If we didn't know any better they're a paid publicist.

The problem is Flacco's only consistency is his ability to be inconsistant.

The hope is he'll somehow improve but once a quarterback gets as many starts as Flacco has , he is what you see. I'd love to see the Ravens float his name out there and see what they can get for them because he sure isn't worth the absurd amount he's asking. Flacco has shown the ability to be a middle of the pack quarterback and nothing more and that's what he should be paid as.

[usmccharles]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1334148564' post='1046924'] When all the stars align Flacco has shown the ability to do well. You have to chuckle at some of the excuses these people throw out. If we didn't know any better they're a paid publicist. The problem is Flacco's only consistency is his ability to be inconsistant. The hope is he'll somehow improve but once a quarterback gets as many starts as Flacco has , he is what you see. I'd love to see the Ravens float his name out there and see what they can get for them because he sure isn't worth the absurd amount he's asking. Flacco has shown the ability to be a middle of the pack quarterback and nothing more and that's what he should be paid as. [/quote]

I disagree. Look at drew brees numbers in his first four years, basically identical to joes. Then brees goes to the saints and we know hows thats going. Do you know who brees OC was....Cam Cameron.

I also think its funny how people actually think Joe is asking for a 100mill contract, he knows hes not worth that, its called negotiating. You start high so they meet you in the middle...where you actually wanted to end up. Just like when you sell a car: you dont put the exact price you want on the for sale sign because you know the buyer will try to talk you down, therefore when you put it higher, him talking you down just meets you were you wanted to be. i expect joe gets a 6 year 75mill ish contract

[callahan09]

[quote name='BMOREHAWAII' timestamp='1334110339' post='1046826']
Flacco is the las player I would call clutch. He did his job against Pittsburgh that's what he gets paid to do. He tore up NE, so did other QBs. what the heck happened against Jacksonville, Seattle... Clutch? LMAO
[/quote]

Jacksonville was a debacle for our entire offense, not Joe Flacco's fault. Seattle wasn't Flacco's fault either. His kicker missed 2 field goal attempts, and his kick returner fumbled the ball twice, and then shambled decent field position on his one good return by committing a personal foul at the end of it for a 15 yard penalty to pin us back with poor field position again. Flacco's last possession of the game he got us a touchdown. If the defense could have gotten us the ball back with 6 minutes left, Flacco could have scored again and gotten the win. But the defense couldn't get us the ball back with SIX MINUTES left on the clock.

And then you say things like, What he did in Pittsburgh was not clutch, it's just doing his job. Hahaha. So in your estimation, there's no such thing as clutch. There's just doing your job or being UNclutch. That's not a fair standard at all.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1334148564' post='1046924']
When all the stars align Flacco has shown the ability to do well. You have to chuckle at some of the excuses these people throw out. If we didn't know any better they're a paid publicist.

The problem is Flacco's only consistency is his ability to be inconsistant.

The hope is he'll somehow improve but once a [b]quarterback gets as many starts as Flacco has , he is what you see[/b]. I'd love to see the Ravens float his name out there and see what they can get for them because he sure isn't worth the absurd amount he's asking. Flacco has shown the ability to be a middle of the pack quarterback and nothing more and that's what he should be paid as.
[/quote]Brees entering his 5th season he was coming off a 3100 yard season! How dare he go to New Orleans and get better each year...he's completely ruining your claim there man. Same with Roethlisberger. Heading into his 5th season he was coming off of a 3100 yard season. The past 3 seasons Roethlisberger has averaged over 3800 yards per season including two over 4000 yard seasons.

48.2% 1043
52.8% 3,762
57.7% 3,244
56.1% 3336
60.3% 3238

I wonder who they belong too?

Eli Manning's first 5 years. took him 5 years just to get to 60%. the following 3...

62.3% 4021
62.9% 4002
61% 4933


Get out of here with that crap that joe is excatly who he will be right now!

[Hardbaugh]

I count 10 teams that maybe could be interested in bringing this guy aboard if he were available and I'm certain at a return that was in the neighborhood of Kolb like and not much more would be very top end.

That's a far cry from top 5 quarterback or a signal caller that is capable of Lombardi's without being carried by the surrounding cast.

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1334155441' post='1046949']
Brees entering his 5th season he was coming off a 3100 yard season! How dare he go to New Orleans and get better each year...he's completely ruining your claim there man. Same with Roethlisberger. Heading into his 5th season he was coming off of a 3100 yard season. The past 3 seasons Roethlisberger has averaged over 3800 yards per season including two over 4000 yard seasons.

48.2% 1043
52.8% 3,762
57.7% 3,244
56.1% 3336
60.3% 3238

I wonder who they belong too?

Eli Manning's first 5 years. took him 5 years just to get to 60%. the following 3...

62.3% 4021
62.9% 4002
61% 4933


Get out of here with that crap that joe is excatly who he will be right now!
[/quote]

Let me guess you were one of the people that compared Boller and Peyton Mannings first year numbers and rode that horse until it came up lame as well?

For the record if you can show me any big jump in improvement with a quarterback that has [u]74 career starts [/u]I'd be interested in looking at it. I'd bet there is 10 , 20 if not more of the number you come up with that continue on the path of mediocrity or worse......

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1334155858' post='1046954']


Let me guess you were one of the people that compared Boller and Peyton Mannings first year numbers and rode that horse until it came up lame as well?

For the record if you can show me any big jump in improvement with a quarterback that has 74 career starts I'd be interested in looking at it. I'd bet there is 10 , 20 if not more that continue on the path of mediocrity or worse......
[/quote]
You never answered my post. Who would you take over Joe? Brees, Brady, E Manning, and Rodgers would be the only guys I would want over him. He's on the same level as Rivers, Vick, & Ryan. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just the facts.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1334155858' post='1046954']
Let me guess you were one of the people that compared Boller and Peyton Mannings first year numbers and rode that horse until it came up lame as well?

For the record if you can show me any big jump in improvement with a quarterback that has [u]74 career starts [/u]I'd be interested in looking at it. I'd bet there is 10 , 20 if not more of the number you come up with that continue on the path of mediocrity or worse......
[/quote]
why would i compare boller to peyton, they arent even on the same level, hence why im not comparing joe to peyton, im comparing him to players in similar situations. Brees with Cam Cameron, Eli Manning, inconsistene early, inconsistent even now, his eighth season probably his best and most consistent, Big Ben being in the same division, on a defensive minded team very similar too ours.

and for the last part, i was just proving your point that Joe is who he is, is in fact incorrect because there is examples of many players improving as they get older

[Hardbaugh]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1334156403' post='1046960']
You never answered my post. Who would you take over Joe? Brees, Brady, E Manning, and Rodgers would be the only guys I would want over him. He's on the same level as Rivers, Vick, & Ryan. That's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just the facts.
[/quote]

My apologies GC, I'll look at your post and add some as well if I see some missing that I believe are better.

Here's who I would take that are on your list...

[b][color=#282828]Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers-[/color][/b]

[color=#282828]Quarterbacks that would make the Ravens better right now that aren't on the list, Tony Romo, Matt Schaub, Matt Stafford.[/color]

Who I think would make the Ravens better this season and the coming years that haven't peaked yet and aren't on your list...
Cam Newton, Andy Dalton.

I'd take Luck or Robert Griffin , obviously both without a down of NFL football under their belt over Flacco right now...

There's a long list of mid range quarterbacks that are able to provide mediocre numbers some of them I'd take ahead of Flacco. I believe the Ravens personel would help them put up better numbers than Flacco, Freeman and Bradford would be in that group.

[CapoRocky]

I don't know why everyone made such a big deal out of Flacco saying that he is the best. Have you ever listened to one of Ray Lewis's motivational speeches? He often says things like you have to believe that you are the best. When you get up in the morning you must go out believing that you are the best. When you play the game of football you must think that you are the best player ever to play the game. Flacco is just doing what Lewis has told him to do. He is trying to be the best.

[CapoRocky]

Just give Flacco another speedy receiver and a few 3 receiver sets and his numbers will jump off the chart next season. Why do you think I'm so high on drafting Hill this year?

[callahan09]

[quote name='Hardbaugh' timestamp='1334155858' post='1046954']
Let me guess you were one of the people that compared Boller and Peyton Mannings first year numbers and rode that horse until it came up lame as well?

[u][b]For the record if you can show me any big jump in improvement with a quarterback that has 74 career starts I'd be interested in looking at it[/b][/u]. I'd bet there is 10 , 20 if not more of the number you come up with that continue on the path of mediocrity or worse......
[/quote]

OK, I'll bite:

There have been 54 quarterbacks since 1970 to start at least 74 games including the post-season (for the record, Joe Flacco has started 73, not yet 74).

Among those 54 players, the average QB rating for their first 73 starts is 82.5.
The average QB rating for all games started after that (74th and on) is 85.0.

So the average QB to start that many games actually does perform better in the later games, even if it is only a 3.1% performance increase.

The most significant examples of a performance jump in their 74th start and on are:

[u]Player Name: First 73 Games -> 74th Game & On (# of Games Past 73)[/u]
[size=6][b]Peyton Manning: 84.7 -> 98.9 (154)[/b][/size]
[size=5][b]Eli Manning: 77.0 -> 89.6 (57)[/b][/size]
[b]Tom Brady: 87.8 -> 100.2 (108)[/b]
[size=4][b]Drew Brees: 88.0 -> 99.2 (89)[/b][/size]
[b][size=3]Michael Vick: 76.1 -> 91.2 (25)[/size][/b]

[size=4]That's 5 current players with a huge jump after 74 starts... Joe Flacco is sitting at an 84.2 rating in his 73 starts, which is above average for QBs in their first 73 starts, and is pretty comparable to Peyton Manning, as well as not being too far off from Brady and Brees, and much better than Eli and Vick. So if those 5 players could mark such a huge jump in performance after 74 starts, then the precedent is set, you've seen the evidence, and it can be done.[/size]

We should also look at this excluding the post-season. Flacco has 64 regular season starts.

There are 65 quarterbacks since 1970 who have started at least 65 regular season games. Of them, the average QB rating in the first 64 starts is 81.9, which then jumps up to an 85.1 average in starts 65+. So once again, we have the average quarterback who has had that much playing time being better in his later starts after 64 starts. This time it's a 3.9% average increase.

This time you've got:

Peyton Manning: 85.1 -> 99.3 (144)
Tom Brady: 87.6 -> 102.2 (95)
Drew Brees: 85.6 -> 98.9 (89)
Eli Manning: 75.5 -> 89.7 (55)
Michael Vick: 75.6 -> 91.7 (29)

Joe Flacco has an 86.0 in his first 64 regular season starts. So there is some precedent for players with a rating like that going on to average around 100 QB rating thereafter (Peyton Manning, Brady, Brees).

[Moderator 3]

Thanks, callahan. I feel like printing that out and framing it.