Saints Bounty Controversy

[Grapple Raven]

Imho, this is the result of the "win at all cost" philosophy and it has permeated all levels of sports. I refrain from using the word "professional" because there is nothing professional about it. It is just wrong on so many levels. Healthy competitiveness is one thing as evidenced by incentives already built into player contracts. If you need further motivation to play, other than a pure love for the game, I would suggest you might need to find another means of support. To pool money for injuring a player, potentially affecting his livelihood and that of his family, with a possible career ending injury is going beyond the bounds of common decency and fair play. It is an insult to the integrity of the sport itself, the fans who support it, and the vast majority of participants in the league who play and coach for the love of the game.
I was reading articles last night, and listening to the NFL network's coverage on this. It is a shame the "bounty" money wasn't used for a better purpose like donations to Hurricane Katrina victims. I remember at the time, many NFL sportcasters remarking on how the people of N.O. needed that Super Bowl to cleanse the memories of all that had happened in the disaster. The fact that this money was used with the intent to inflict hurt on people in the same location where many died months earlier makes it even more deplorable! The irony is chilling.

Incidents like this serve as a good reminder of why character counts, and suggests that perhaps some in this league should reconsider their definition of sportsmanship, and what it means to "play like a champion".

[arnie_uk]

Now reported that this happened in the Bills when Williams was DC there as well. They way Goddell has been clamping down on player safety he has to kick Williams out of the league for this. i dont care about the pay for better preformance, thats ok, but paying to hurt, injure and sidline other players, in Goddell regime has to be unacceptable. He has to ban him for life.

[MsMarvel73]

So now the Redskins and the Bills have found their way into this investigation because of Williams?? Wonder how Snyder and the Wilson family feel about this?

I also think the Rams ought to consider looking for another DC at some point.

[MsMarvel73]

[quote name='TreTheRaven' timestamp='1330825181' post='1011090']

Yeah, I can see Harrison having fits if the league goes lightly on the Saints. Which I really wouldn't blame him.
[/quote]

Even though I can't stand Harrison, I wouldn't either.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1330866129' post='1011248']
Now reported that this happened in the Bills when Williams was DC there as well. They way Goddell has been clamping down on player safety he has to kick Williams out of the league for this. i dont care about the pay for better preformance, thats ok, but paying to hurt, injure and sidline other players, in Goddell regime has to be unacceptable. He has to ban him for life.
[/quote]
This thing just keeps getting worse. At this rate he will be kicked out of the league.

[harfordravenfan]

From what I've read on here and heard on the radio, it all seems to stem from Williams. So my question; would the bills or redskins be eligible for penalties also? I'd be ignorant to assume the head coaches of said teams didn't know about Williams bounty system right?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='harfordravenfan' timestamp='1330875940' post='1011313']
From what I've read on here and heard on the radio, it all seems to stem from Williams. So my question; would the bills or redskins be eligible for penalties also? [b]I'd be ignorant to assume the head coaches of said teams didn't know about Williams bounty system right?[/b]
[/quote]

Not necessarily. [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/joe-gibbs-i-would-never-ask-a-player-to-hurt-another-player/2012/03/02/gIQAZhkdnR_blog.html"]Joe Gibbs is claiming he knew nothing of the bounty system[/url].

[harfordravenfan]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1330879224' post='1011359']


Not necessarily. [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/football-insider/post/joe-gibbs-i-would-never-ask-a-player-to-hurt-another-player/2012/03/02/gIQAZhkdnR_blog.html"]Joe Gibbs is claiming he knew nothing of the bounty system[/url].
[/quote]

If I was one of those guys I'd deny deny deny also but will goodell believe it or care?

Nice article from same link
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/documents/bounty.html

[JO_75]

[quote name='harfordravenfan' timestamp='1330875940' post='1011313']
From what I've read on here and heard on the radio, it all seems to stem from Williams. So my question; would the bills or redskins be eligible for penalties also? I'd be ignorant to assume the head coaches of said teams didn't know about Williams bounty system right?
[/quote]

I don't think Washington & Buffalo should receive penalties because it seems from one common factor, it all happened when Williams was there. You don't hear about that anymore in Washington and Buffalo now that Williams isn't there anymore. Williams should receive a lifetime ban from the NFL from this.

[harfordravenfan]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1330881860' post='1011389']


I don't think Washington & Buffalo should receive penalties because it seems from one common factor, it all happened when Williams was there. You don't hear about that anymore in Washington and Buffalo now that Williams isn't there anymore. Williams should receive a lifetime ban from the NFL from this.
[/quote]

I agree with that, was just wondering what others thought. Just sucks that one guy could make our beloved game/organization look bad.

[McBurks]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1330881860' post='1011389']

I don't think Washington & Buffalo should receive penalties because it seems from one common factor, it all happened when Williams was there. You don't hear about that anymore in Washington and Buffalo now that Williams isn't there anymore. Williams should receive a lifetime ban from the NFL from this.
[/quote]

A lifetime ban is a little harsh,but I think what GrimCoconut said would be fine.


[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1330811340' post='1010937']
I'm going to say a year suspension for Williams. The Saints will lose their 2013 1st round pick, their 2012 2nd & 3rd round picks & monetary penalties. I see the high profile players getting a game or two suspension. I see Vilma with a 2 game suspension.

That's my guess. I only say that because Goodell is really coming down on safety and I think he will make examples of people.

I don't see the Redskins or Titans being penalized. I also think Payton will be fine as will Fisher. I could see them getting penalized, though.
[/quote]

[MsMarvel73]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1330881860' post='1011389']

I don't think Washington & Buffalo should receive penalties because it seems from one common factor, it all happened when Williams was there. [b]You don't hear about that anymore in Washington and Buffalo now that Williams isn't there anymore[/b]. Williams should receive a lifetime ban from the NFL from this.
[/quote]

Excellent point...but then should any findings off the Redskins investigation factor into any punishment Williams gets or is Roger just going to base that off what they found out about the Saints?

[CapoRocky]

The Saints have franchise tagged Brees. Besides, he is the QB, not an defensive player. The only thing Brees could do is throw the ball at their groins similar to Burt Reynolds in the move The Longest Yard. LOL!

Seriously, I think that the NFL needs to fine the Saints heavily for this embarrassment. Manning was targeted after his initial concussion in 2006, which was by the Redskins under Gregg Williams. Now, the NFL has summoned Williams to NYC to face the heat for the "bounty" system.

[cursona pirate]

I just lost a lot or respect for the Saints. They better be penalized.

[JO_75]

Information regarding suspensions:

Saints GM, Head Coach Sean Payton and Rams DC Gregg Williams may all face long suspensions.An unnamed source said that the suspension may be as long as half a season or LONGER.

[url="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/04/williams-payton-loomis-saints-players-all-may-face-long-suspensions/"]http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/04/williams-payton-loomis-saints-players-all-may-face-long-suspensions/[/url]

NFL Summons Greg Williams to New York for a meeting with the League on Monday.

[url="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/04/report-league-brings-gregg-williams-to-new-york/"]http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/04/report-league-brings-gregg-williams-to-new-york/[/url]

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1330912023' post='1011838']
Information regarding suspensions:

Saints GM, Head Coach Sean Payton and Rams DC Gregg Williams may all face long suspensions.An unnamed source said that the suspension may be as long as half a season or LONGER.

[url="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/04/williams-payton-loomis-saints-players-all-may-face-long-suspensions/"]http://profootballta...ng-suspensions/[/url]

NFL Summons Greg Williams to New York for a meeting with the League on Monday.

[url="http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/04/report-league-brings-gregg-williams-to-new-york/"]http://profootballta...ms-to-new-york/[/url]
[/quote]
Wow. I could see this happen, sadly. It's a big deal. They really messed up, from then top to the bottom. I can't imagine it going beyond the Saints, but you never know how far-reaching this could be. A case could be started that Fisher is the one who was doing it as well with Williams in Tennessee. If something like that comes out, you'll see worse things happen.

I can't see the team losing more than 2012 2nd & 3rd round picks as well as their 2013 1st, but who knows at this point. All I know is, Saints better hope the NFL doesn't use Jimmy Johnson's trade value chart to determine their punishment since they don't have a 1st round pick. That 27th pick traded to the Patriots is worth 680 points, which is more than all of their remaining draft picks in 2012. They would need to take picks from next year to even make it up.

[T3hRaven]

This situation must be worse than the media has let on. If the punishments are going to be worse than Spygate, you know it's pretty bad.

[redrum52]

Let's be real here, any defensive team has probably employed a policy like this for atleast 1 game. We cant act like our yeam is squeaky clean but I will say almost every team has probably done this, especially come play off time. If you don't think we've never played with a bounty under Rex you're crazy. Mendhenhall, Hines? In fact, I'm pretty sure there was one for Rich Gannon during the SB run. This has been happening for years and will continue to as long as players don't snitch on their coach. As far as I'm concerned the spygate was still worse.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1330921317' post='1012037']
Let's be real here, any defensive team has probably employed a policy like this for atleast 1 game. We cant act like our yeam is squeaky clean but I will say almost every team has probably done this, especially come play off time. If you don't think we've never played with a bounty under Rex you're crazy. Mendhenhall, Hines? In fact, I'm pretty sure there was one for Rich Gannon during the SB run. This has been happening for years and will continue to as long as players don't snitch on their coach. As far as I'm concerned the spygate was still worse.
[/quote]
You know, I'd agree to a certain extent. I'm sure this has happened a lot in the NFL, people just don't talk about it. The problem is, people talked about it. It's like doing drugs at some guy's house. As long as nobody tells the police, it's OK. The police may have an idea something's happening, but if they don't know or can't prove it then it's irrelevant. That's the case here.

The problem is, this has happened at an inopportune time. Goodell (it's funny to me, because his name is also a sign of pregnancy. If you want to look it up, you can. What makes it even funnier is that it has to do with the cervix softening. It's ironic to me every time I think about him that I think of cervical softening. Sorry, I digress) is trying to push hard for player safety, so much that we all mock him for it as well as the players. The problem is that he must do something here, because over the years he has progressively become harsher & harsher. He's going to come down on them because of it.

Now, the other problem with this fiasco isn't that they are rewarding players for interceptions and the like, but that it's causing career-ending injuries to players. That's really the heart of the problem. When you have players like Warner, Favre, Manning who are being hurt because of this P4P (Pay for Performance) program, then you have a problem because it's enticing people to cause injury that could end that person's career in the NFL, which is wrong.

There's a fine line between hurting the guy across from you to instill fear, and then there is hurting the guy across from you to end his season or career. When you play to injure, then we have problems. Every player in the NFL plays to hurt the other guy. That's part of the game. Playing to injure someone isn't.

[redrum52]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1330922387' post='1012054']

You know, I'd agree to a certain extent. I'm sure this has happened a lot in the NFL, people just don't talk about it. The problem is, people talked about it. It's like doing drugs at some guy's house. As long as nobody tells the police, it's OK. The police may have an idea something's happening, but if they don't know or can't prove it then it's irrelevant. That's the case here.

The problem is, this has happened at an inopportune time. Goodell (it's funny to me, because his name is also a sign of pregnancy. If you want to look it up, you can. What makes it even funnier is that it has to do with the cervix softening. It's ironic to me every time I think about him that I think of cervical softening. Sorry, I digress) is trying to push hard for player safety, so much that we all mock him for it as well as the players. The problem is that he must do something here, because over the years he has progressively become harsher & harsher. He's going to come down on them because of it.

Now, the other problem with this fiasco isn't that they are rewarding players for interceptions and the like, but that it's causing career-ending injuries to players. That's really the heart of the problem. When you have players like Warner, Favre, Manning who are being hurt because of this P4P (Pay for Performance) program, then you have a problem because it's enticing people to cause injury that could end that person's career in the NFL, which is wrong.

There's a fine line between hurting the guy across from you to instill fear, and then there is hurting the guy across from you to end his season or career. When you play to injure, then we have problems. Every player in the NFL plays to hurt the other guy. That's part of the game. Playing to injure someone isn't.
[/quote]

I feel you and I like the drug reference. I agree with it to the extent that if a team hurts one of your players in a malicious hit, its and eye for an eye. If you look at the Saints that season, especially post season, you knew they were out for blood and I sort of respect it cause it was by any means necessary. I'm not even a Favre fan and before this came out I said something was wrong with the hits he received. Hits like that hadn't been seen since Maddens Raiders or the 70's Steelers.

[ThePurpleWall]

I do think Williams should get a Life Time Ban or at least 4 years.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='Grapple Raven' timestamp='1330938717' post='1012149']
[url="https://twitter.com/damienwoody"][img]https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/1863618608/nQ28v_normal.jpg[/img] Damien Woody [/url]
[url="https://twitter.com/damienwoody"]@[b]damienwoody[/b] [/url]

The bigger question w/ this 'bounty' issue is.....WHO SNITCHED?!?!
[url="https://twitter.com/damienwoody/statuses/175676909009645568"]2 Mar 12 [/url]



The bigger question for D. Woody would be: Are you implying that the bounty issue was an unspoken truth in the NFL by your use of the word "snitched"? If so, that would implicate that you sir, had prior knowledge of its existence.

"Good ole' boys network" much D. Woody?
[/quote]

Or maybe some of us are just interested on who felt the need to come clean yet remain anonymous, that implies a lack of conviction. If you're right you shouldn't feel the need to hide.

[berad]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1330943311' post='1012160']
Or maybe some of us are just interested on who felt the need to come clean yet remain anonymous, that implies a lack of conviction. If you're right you shouldn't feel the need to hide.
[/quote]

All anonymous tips are bad, then? There are plenty of reasons one would remain nameless in a situation like this; most notably: being ostracized from the NFL community. Seems to have been a valid fear, too, because players like Damien Woody and Ryan Clark have come out with a "snitches get stitches" attitude instead of addressing the real issue.

[BMOREHAWAII]

Saints were the unfortunate franchise to get caught. They slipped up and now they have to pay the price. One thing is for sure, this type of thing starts from pee-wee football, into high school, college and so fourth. It's happened before and will keep happening.

[TreTheRaven]

It looks like Eisenberg is questioning Baltimore...

http://www.csnwashington.com/03/05/12/Bounties-in-Baltimore/landing.html?blockID=663424&feedID=6703

[berad]

[quote name='TreTheRaven' timestamp='1330979603' post='1012497']
It looks like Eisenberg is questioning Baltimore...

[url="http://www.csnwashington.com/03/05/12/Bounties-in-Baltimore/landing.html?blockID=663424&feedID=6703"]http://www.csnwashin...424&feedID=6703[/url]
[/quote]

He's going off of Hines Ward and Terrell Suggs, two very questionable sources.

[JO_75]

[quote name='TreTheRaven' timestamp='1330979603' post='1012497']
It looks like Eisenberg is questioning Baltimore...

[url="http://www.csnwashington.com/03/05/12/Bounties-in-Baltimore/landing.html?blockID=663424&feedID=6703"]http://www.csnwashin...424&feedID=6703[/url]
[/quote]

Jeez, everyone is coming out of the woodwork here. Even Tony Dungy is throwing accusations of the Redskins having a bounty on Peyton Manning when he was the coach, hell the media found a way to get Favre involved by asking him about it, Charles Barkley came out and called the person who "ratted out" the Saints a punk, and now Eric Berry is saying his injury he suffered might have had something to do with a bounty. Everyone is coming out of the woodwork all of a sudden, well if everyone wants to accuse people of a bounty then I wonder if the Browns will be in question and someone will come up with some theory about the hit on Ben was because of a bounty, this is getting out of hand.

[GrimCoconut]

Ravens won't be penalized for any bounty. I also doubt the Jets will be, either. What Suggs said was in jest. Poor move in retrospect. There's no current evidence, and most likely won't be, either. Ravens have a pretty tight group & I doubt anyone talks.

Suggs does need to learn to keep his mouth shut, though.

[berad]

[quote name='JO_75' timestamp='1330980287' post='1012524']

Jeez, everyone is coming out of the woodwork here. Even Tony Dungy is throwing accusations of the Redskins having a bounty on Peyton Manning when he was the coach, hell the media found a way to get Favre involved by asking him about it, Charles Barkley came out and called the person who "ratted out" the Saints a punk, [b]and now Eric Berry is saying his injury he suffered might have had something to do with a bounty.[/b] Everyone is coming out of the woodwork all of a sudden, well if everyone wants to accuse people of a bounty then I wonder if the Browns will be in question and someone will come up with some theory about the hit on Ben was because of a bounty, this is getting out of hand.
[/quote]

Wait, really?

He torn his ACL after he caught it on the turf, [url="http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-around-the-league/09000d5d8222c2b7/Chiefs-lose-Berry-for-the-season"]untouched[/url]. There wasn't a guy within 3 feet of him. Unless I'm mistaken, and a sniper shot his knee, I think the turf monster is the culprit.

[Grapple Raven]

Pryce's and Scott's comments don't help either in that March 4th NYT's article, [url="http://mobile.nytimes.com/article?a=920469&f=19"]http://mobile.nytime...e?a=920469&f=19[/url] article. Paired with that idiot Hemsley's article March 4th on ESPN's AFC North Blog [url="http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/43507/did-ravens-put-bounties-out-on-steelers"]http://espn.go.com/b...out-on-steelers[/url], and now Eisenburg today?

Now, I don't have a problem with "gas money" as Sapp so amptly puts it, nothing wrong with healthy competition, but gawd almighty! I wasn't born yesterday, but damn, have we got to go through this "don't blame me, everybody does it" finger pointing game again now? I thought all this was cleared up when Suggs got his warning and explained himself. Why start bringing all this up again now, unless you have some ulterior motive against the Ravens? Geezeeee!