Marcus McNeil Might Be A FA

[ravensfan520]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1328714015' post='989340']

I could see it being McNeil (LT), Reid (LG), Birk/rookie/free agent (C), Yanda (RG), Oher (RT). This would be a good line. We could draft a back-up tackle in a late round. Our only question mark would be center. McKinnie would be cut if we signed McNeil.
[/quote]

There is also the question of health. The chargers cut him because of salary and health. He is 28 but McKinney was also I believe the onlt lineman who played healthy all year why sign a tackle to a big paycheck that has injury issues when we have a good one in place and can draft a successor.

[Alexir]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1328714853' post='989346']

There are maybe 2 guys out there that we could get that would be an upgrade - Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck. Peyton Manning will be 36, coming off 2 neck surgeries in 2 seasons, and would cost a lot of money - that's if he can even still play. We have the 28th pick in the draft - it will take number 1 to get Luck. In a NORMAL draft, we would need to trade at least 2 first round picks and 2 second round picks (what the Falcons did) to even get into the top 10. To get to number 1, even more. For "the best quarterback prospect since Peyton Manning", in the position that we're in, I'm thinking 4 first round picks at the least. Because lets face it, with the team we have now we'll probably make the playoffs the next 4 years, meaning all of our picks would be in the 20s. The Colts would know that, so while they may be okay only asking 2 first rounders from a team like Washington (who always seems to be picking in the top half of the draft), they'd ask for much more from a better team. There are no realistic options to upgrade the quarterback position - taking out Luck, Manning, and RG3 who would be similar to the Luck scenario, we have our choice of guys like Matt Flynn, Kyle Orton, Jason Campbell, and Donovan McNabb.
[/quote]
It was more of a tongue in cheek comment. I know the Ravens aren't going to replace their golden boy and wouldn't expect Ozzie to give up any picks for it. Just find it amusing that when someone criticizes Flacco everyone gets defense but if it's criticizing or replacing another member of the team it's fine. Just a double standard I notice.

[Alexir]

If we were to get younger at LT, it is interesting to note that Grubbs and McNeill went to the same College and played side by side....

But with the salary cap, there is no way we could have them both..

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1328722727' post='989451']
It was more of a tongue in cheek comment. I know the Ravens aren't going to replace their golden boy and wouldn't expect Ozzie to give up any picks for it. Just find it amusing that when someone criticizes Flacco everyone gets defense but if it's criticizing or replacing another member of the team it's fine. Just a double standard I notice.
[/quote]

Well I'd be pretty PO'ed if someone said "Let's swap Terrell Suggs with JPP" or "Let's trade Ray Lewis for Patrick Willis" or "Swap Rice for Jamal Charles" or "Swap Ed Reed for Eric Berry or Nick Collins or Malcom Jenkins". Who are we talking about replacing that is of that value? Our tackles really aren't very good, which is why we're talking about it. We've already paid Yanda and I think it's more important to find a tackle than a guard, which is why I love Grubbs but I think he's expendable if we find a left tackle. Ray Rice isn't going anywhere. As far as receivers go, Lee Evans is making a lot of money, and Torrey Smith may have just passed him on the depth chart. Maybe if we replace him with a cheaper option we can resign Grubbs and get a left tackle in the draft - because Rice and Flacco are getting locked up, the front office has already made this clear. Jarrett Johnson may be replaced by Kruger because Kruger offers more of a pass-rushing presence which is what we need.

I hate people bringing up replacing Flacco because they come up with useless replacements. I've heard Nick Foles, Luck or RG3, Peyton Manning, and Matt Flynn. Of those, only Peyton is a guaranteed upgrade, and there's no way the FO is trading up to get Luck or RG3. If Peyton is healthy and we can get him, do it - but he may not be healthy and he'd come with a huge price tag. There is no better option than Flacco, which is why I get frustrated when people act like we can bring in any quarterback off the street and he's going to beat the Steelers and Bengals twice each next season. But do you think Michael Oher can be a left tackle? Do you think McKinney has anything left beyond a year or two? Do you think it's worth having the highest paid guard tandem in the league when we could pay a left tackle and draft a decent guard in the draft? I don't, so that's why I see Grubbs as expendable - if it comes down to 2 of Flacco, Rice and Grubbs, I'll take my quarterback and running back and find a guard somewhere else. It's easier to find a decent guard, maybe not pro-bowl level but decent, in the draft than it is to find a quarterback.

I don't see anyone talking about replacing any core players other than Flacco - again, I don't see Grubbs as a major core player because I think we can find someone to replace him that can do a good job. I don't see a quarterback just walking in here and doing the job Flacco does - Elvis Grbac put up pretty numbers in KC, then fell flat on his face here. Matt Ryan crumbled against the Steelers last year. People wanted to replace Flacco with Bulger last year - Bulger had two receivers who will probably go down as top 15 or top 20 all time to throw to, Stephen Jackson and Marshall Faulk (that's one HOF running back and another who will probably end up in the HOF) and maybe the 3rd best left tackle in NFL history protecting his blind side - and still his best season was worse than Flacco last year in every way except he threw for more yards. This is a very tough division to compete in, and Flacco has proven he can do it, when lots of others couldn't.

Again, Grubbs is a great player, but he's not irreplaceable. Jason Brown left, and we got Birk who did a good job for the better part of 3 seasons. It's all about cost-effectiveness, and I don't see resigning all three of our top offensive free agents as effective, especially since we also have to resign Flacco, Rice, Webb, and we still have guys like Cary Williams and Jameel McClain that are important contributors who we might not get to bring back if we don't have the cap room.

[rmw10]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1328723396' post='989462']

Well I'd be pretty PO'ed if someone said "Let's swap Terrell Suggs with JPP" or "Let's trade Ray Lewis for Patrick Willis" or "Swap Rice for Jamal Charles" or "Swap Ed Reed for Eric Berry or Nick Collins or Malcom Jenkins". Who are we talking about replacing that is of that value? Our tackles really aren't very good, which is why we're talking about it. We've already paid Yanda and I think it's more important to find a tackle than a guard, which is why I love Grubbs but I think he's expendable if we find a left tackle. Ray Rice isn't going anywhere. As far as receivers go, Lee Evans is making a lot of money, and Torrey Smith may have just passed him on the depth chart. Maybe if we replace him with a cheaper option we can resign Grubbs and get a left tackle in the draft - because Rice and Flacco are getting locked up, the front office has already made this clear. Jarrett Johnson may be replaced by Kruger because Kruger offers more of a pass-rushing presence which is what we need.
[/quote]

As weird as it may sound, you'd be crazy not to give up Ray for Willis and Reed for Berry. When you get players of their magnitude and age for 2 guys who are close to retirement, you better do it. While they may be the fan favorites and best to ever play their positions, the talent that Berry and Willis possess would be enough to make those deals, especially at this point in both Ray and Ed's careers.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='rmw10' timestamp='1328723857' post='989468']

As weird as it may sound, you'd be crazy not to give up Ray for Willis and Reed for Berry. When you get players of their magnitude and age for 2 guys who are close to retirement, you better do it. While they may be the fan favorites and best to ever play their positions, the talent that Berry and Willis possess would be enough to make those deals, especially at this point in both Ray and Ed's careers.
[/quote]

That's what I'm saying, they would be better long term, but nobody's talking about it, yet all I here is "trade Flacco and get the UNPROVEN Andrew Luck or RG3, or the 36-YEAR-OLD Peyton Manning coming off 2 neck surgeries." This isn't Manning of 4 years ago we'd be getting - we don't know WHAT we'd be getting with Manning. He might think he could play, but then we find out later he's done (remember the receiver we picked up a few years ago, Drew Bennett, who retired 3 days later because of injury). Or he might play a year or two, then in two years we'd be right back to where we've started, and given HIS playoff record, I don't see proof that he could come in and win it all with us. The year the Colts won the Superbowl, Manning was terrible by his standards in the playoffs - his highest QB rating was 82 vs. Chicago and REX GROSSMAN. When they lost to the Saints, he was okay, not great, rating of 88. Peyton IMO is the anti-Troy Aikman - Peyton puts up great regular season stats but doesn't do well in the post-season. Conversely, Troy never even had a QB rating over 100 in the regular season, career his rating was 81.6, but in the post-season he was like the Curt Schilling of football - the 3 times the Cowboys won the Superbowl he dominated - in 8 of those 9 games his rating was over 100, and he threw 17 TDs to only 4 picks in those 9 games. On the other hand, Manning threw 3 TDs and 7 picks the year the Colts won it all, and had a QB rating of 39.6 against the Ravens, but the Colts still won.

[T3hRaven]

If McNeil is cut and he gets cleared by the medical staff I don't see any reason not to at least take a look at him. He has been a very good LT in the past, and would definitely be an upgrade and a bit more long term solution over McKinney.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1328722727' post='989451']
It was more of a tongue in cheek comment. I know the Ravens aren't going to replace their golden boy and wouldn't expect Ozzie to give up any picks for it. Just find it amusing that when someone criticizes Flacco everyone gets defense but if it's criticizing or replacing another member of the team it's fine. Just a double standard I notice.
[/quote]

Just another quick point - I believe even an average quarterback is more important to the success of a team than the best running back in the NFL. Case in point - the Vikings. Adrian Peterson had almost 900 yards in half a season. But that team still only won 3 games. MJD led the NFL in rushing with 1600 yards - where did the Jags end up? Top 5 RBs were MJD, Rice, Turner, McCoy, Foster. Of those teams, only one had a quarterback who made plays in the postseason - the Ravens. The Jags and Eagles were terrible this year, and Yates couldn't do anything against us. Better question, if Jamal Lewis had 1800 yards from scrimmage in 2002 and a better defense, how come we went 7-9 missed the playoffs that year, while Rice only had 200 yards more from scrimmage, about 2000 yards, and we went 12-4 and made the playoffs. I stand by my statement that in today's NFL, even average quarterback play is more important than the best running game or running back in the NFL ever could be. Teams just score more, so you have to score to keep up. That's why I think while Ray Rice may always be a better player, Flacco is the key to this team's success.

[scrock]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1328666312' post='988987']
You don't release a guy like McNeil for no reason. He is probably damaged goods -- a much more expensive Gaither situation.
[/quote]

[ravensfan520]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1328726702' post='989506']


Just another quick point - I believe even an average quarterback is more important to the success of a team than the best running back in the NFL. Case in point - the Vikings. Adrian Peterson had almost 900 yards in half a season. But that team still only won 3 games. MJD led the NFL in rushing with 1600 yards - where did the Jags end up? Top 5 RBs were MJD, Rice, Turner, McCoy, Foster. Of those teams, only one had a quarterback who made plays in the postseason - the Ravens. The Jags and Eagles were terrible this year, and Yates couldn't do anything against us. Better question, if Jamal Lewis had 1800 yards from scrimmage in 2002 and a better defense, how come we went 7-9 missed the playoffs that year, while Rice only had 200 yards more from scrimmage, about 2000 yards, and we went 12-4 and made the playoffs. I stand by my statement that in today's NFL, even average quarterback play is more important than the best running game or running back in the NFL ever could be. Teams just score more, so you have to score to keep up. That's why I think while Ray Rice may always be a better player, Flacco is the key to this team's success.
[/quote]

But we won it ALL in 2000 with just an average qb good te and great running back... and of course one of the greatest defenses of all time. Pats Packers Saints Lions... all pass happy teams very little running game where was there superbowl this year. The Giants won based on great defense and a qb who makes throws no one else would try. Even the steelers are trying to go back to the running game they stopped using this year.

Oh and the Jags and Vikes had qbs that shouldnt even be starting. Also with Shaub at qb the outcome for the Texans may have been different. Our defense won that game not the offense. Plus didnt the jags beat us with just a running back.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1328739467' post='989717']
But we won it ALL in 2000 with just an average qb good te and great running back... and of course one of the greatest defenses of all time. Pats Packers Saints Lions... all pass happy teams very little running game where was there superbowl this year. The Giants won based on great defense and a qb who makes throws no one else would try. Even the steelers are trying to go back to the running game they stopped using this year.

Oh and the Jags and Vikes had qbs that shouldnt even be starting. Also with Shaub at qb the outcome for the Texans may have been different. Our defense won that game not the offense. Plus didnt the jags beat us with just a running back.
[/quote]

12 years ago we won it. 10 years ago the Bucs did the same thing. Nobody has done it since. Since the Bucs won, it's been the Patriots twice - Brady was outstanding in the Superbowl, the Steelers -Ben didn't play well in the Superbowl but played well in the games leading up to it, Colts -Peyton, Giants -Eli went on a tear, Steelers -Ben played well, Saints - Brees, Packers - Rodgers, Giants - Eli again. If the Superbowl could be won with subpar quarterback play, the Jets would have at least gotten there twice - they had the top defense and one of the top rushing attacks in the NFL 2 years in a row. But they didn't, Peyton Manning knocked them out then Roethlisberger knocked them out in two straight AFCCGs. It almost came true again this year - Flacco outplayed Brady and threw the game-winning pass that Lee had stripped. What did Ray Rice do in both playoff games - 2.9 YPC against Houston, 3.2 vs. New England. Ricky Williams did much better but only had 6 carries in both games. The running game in total managed about 180 yards in 2 games, zero TDs. We did not win in the postseason because of the running game, we won the first game because of defense, and the second was almost won on the strength of the passing game.

[ravensfan520]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1328746132' post='989799']


12 years ago we won it. 10 years ago the Bucs did the same thing. Nobody has done it since. Since the Bucs won, it's been the Patriots twice - Brady was outstanding in the Superbowl, the Steelers -Ben didn't play well in the Superbowl but played well in the games leading up to it, Colts -Peyton, Giants -Eli went on a tear, Steelers -Ben played well, Saints - Brees, Packers - Rodgers, Giants - Eli again. If the Superbowl could be won with subpar quarterback play, the Jets would have at least gotten there twice - they had the top defense and one of the top rushing attacks in the NFL 2 years in a row. But they didn't, Peyton Manning knocked them out then Roethlisberger knocked them out in two straight AFCCGs. It almost came true again this year - Flacco outplayed Brady and threw the game-winning pass that Lee had stripped. What did Ray Rice do in both playoff games - 2.9 YPC against Houston, 3.2 vs. New England. Ricky Williams did much better but only had 6 carries in both games. The running game in total managed about 180 yards in 2 games, zero TDs. We did not win in the postseason because of the running game, we won the first game because of defense, and the second was almost won on the strength of the passing game.
[/quote]

To us your jets analogy... they made the afcc 2 years in a row. I blame this year on Rex getting to big for his pants and letting the team walk all over him. Eli before now was considered an average qb who threw 2 many int. Thats the same as us but it it took us 4 years. Oh and Peyton knocked us out... not because of his play but by a redzone int by our qb. So if our passing game is so great and our qb is great where is our ring. The year Brees won his defense smashed Peyton and his no running game. You need balance and even the Giants this year didnt have a 100 yard rusher they did have balance. But I think this has gotten off topic from us signing McNeil.. so ill just move on.

Back to McNeil if we can move Reid to guard and lose Grubbs i would use that money to sign a good center or if we lose McClain we can sign the free agent linebacker from the 49ers or a good backup to Rice. Would be nice to have Lynch.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1328757897' post='989995']
Back to McNeil if we can move Reid to guard and lose Grubbs i would use that money to sign a good center or if we lose McClain we can sign the free agent linebacker from the 49ers or a good backup to Rice. Would be nice to have Lynch.
[/quote]
I think we address the offensive line in free agency and look to the draft for linebackers, wide receivers, etc. Let me explain why:

Last year Ozzie said he would fix the running game. He did it through free agency by signing Leach. That was his fix for the run game, and it was correct. This year, he will fix our weaknesses through free agency so we can focus on BPA in the draft. He always plays this way. That's why we have a great team.

I also think we fix the guard position organically. We have talent on the roster I believe can fill in for Grubbs. That leaves the center position and a future left tackle. If we don't re-sign Grubbs, we could make a play at a big name center like Chris Myers. Or, we could just draft a center like Blake & re-sign Gurode or Birk. That covers our offensive line.

The only problem is left tackle. Next year is McKinnie's last with us based on his current contract. I'm not sure how long he has left. I believe if Ozzie feels that McKinnie is done after this year, and he has a chance at McNeil and he believes McNeil is healthy enough to play and will remain healthy then I think he will make a serious pay for him.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='ravensfan520' timestamp='1328757897' post='989995']
To us your jets analogy... they made the afcc 2 years in a row. I blame this year on Rex getting to big for his pants and letting the team walk all over him. Eli before now was considered an average qb who threw 2 many int. Thats the same as us but it it took us 4 years. Oh and Peyton knocked us out... not because of his play but by a redzone int by our qb. So if our passing game is so great and our qb is great where is our ring. The year Brees won his defense smashed Peyton and his no running game. You need balance and even the Giants this year didnt have a 100 yard rusher they did have balance. But I think this has gotten off topic from us signing McNeil.. so ill just move on.

Back to McNeil if we can move Reid to guard and lose Grubbs i would use that money to sign a good center or if we lose McClain we can sign the free agent linebacker from the 49ers or a good backup to Rice. Would be nice to have Lynch.
[/quote]

It's not a question of what a quarterback is considered, it's what he does IN THE POSTSEASON that matters. Case in point, Roethlisberger. His regular season numbers aren't that good. He's only thrown more than 20 TDs 3 times in 8 seasons. Both years they won it all he had 17 TDs in the regular season, and in 08 he had 15 picks to go along with it. But his 2 Supebowl runs he had a rating of 90 or better in 5 of the 7 games played. Last year when they lost, his rating vs the Jets was 35.5 but his team still won because Sanchez couldn't make plays when he needed to, and then he got to the Sueprbowl his rating was 77, while he faced down a quarterback who was playing better in Rodgers who made the plays. Elite or not elite, the only teams that have won Superbowls since the Bucs had a quarterback who made big time plays in the post-season. That is why you can't win it anymore with average quarterback play in the postseason - there are too many elite quarterbacks vying for the title now, and Eli Manning just added himself to the conversation.

[ravensfan520]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1328758704' post='990019']


It's not a question of what a quarterback is considered, it's what he does IN THE POSTSEASON that matters. Case in point, Roethlisberger. His regular season numbers aren't that good. He's only thrown more than 20 TDs 3 times in 8 seasons. Both years they won it all he had 17 TDs in the regular season, and in 08 he had 15 picks to go along with it. But his 2 Supebowl runs he had a rating of 90 or better in 5 of the 7 games played. Last year when they lost, his rating vs the Jets was 35.5 but his team still won because Sanchez couldn't make plays when he needed to, and then he got to the Sueprbowl his rating was 77, while he faced down a quarterback who was playing better in Rodgers who made the plays. Elite or not elite, the only teams that have won Superbowls since the Bucs had a quarterback who made big time plays in the post-season. That is why you can't win it anymore with average quarterback play in the postseason - there are too many elite quarterbacks vying for the title now, and Eli Manning just added himself to the conversation.
[/quote]

The first time Rothlesburger won a superbowl he had a qb rating of 22.

[GrimCoconut]

This thread isn't about quarterbacks--it's about Marcus McNeil potentially being a free agent and the possibility of signing him. This is beginning to get off-topic.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1328760830' post='990073']
This thread isn't about quarterbacks--it's about Marcus McNeil potentially being a free agent and the possibility of signing him. This is beginning to get off-topic.
[/quote]

I'm still curious as to why they are cutting him. They picked up the Gaither reclamation project, so I'm concerned the Chargers may know something about McNeill we don't.

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1328762291' post='990095']

I'm still curious as to why they are cutting him. They picked up the Gaither reclamation project, so I'm concerned the Chargers may know something about McNeill we don't.
[/quote]
It's certainly a very disturbing thought. I mean, there's a reason they will cut him IF they do. They may not. If they do, I believe we should make a play for him at the very least. Then again, it could be a Peyton Manning cut, in that they have someone they can get cheap (Gaither) who can play well at LT. If they can get Gaither to play LT cheaper than McNeil I see why they would cut him to avoid that 10M bonus or however much it is.

[Alexir]

[quote name='GrimCoconut' timestamp='1328762545' post='990100']
It's certainly a very disturbing thought. I mean, there's a reason they will cut him IF they do. They may not. If they do, I believe we should make a play for him at the very least. Then again, it could be a Peyton Manning cut, in that they have someone they can get cheap (Gaither) who can play well at LT. If they can get Gaither to play LT cheaper than McNeil I see why they would cut him to avoid that 10M bonus or however much it is.
[/quote]
Yeah I think it's the fact Gaither decided to show up and play. Wish that guy had more drive, he would of been a Raven for life and we would be much better with him.

[GrimCoconut]

Well, it's official: he is a free agent. I for one want us to sign this guy. I think he is worth the risk. If our doctors check him out & he passes our exams (which are said to be pretty conservative) then I feel very comfortable having him on this team. I would cut McKinnie & give McNeil a heavily incentive based 2-year deal. He's still young so he has some years & if he works out we can keep him long-term. It would be one less need on this team.

And besides, he & Grubbs played together before. Maybe we could use that to keep Grubbs lol. Probably not, though. Regardless, I think he could be healthy & be a good addition to our team. I know peoplw will say that because the Chargers cut him he is probably not healthy enough or good enough. Well, I think they cut him because he had a huge bonus due & Jared played very well for them so they want to get him for cheaper than McNeil's bonus would have cost.

[Romo Ravens]

I'm all for signing McNeil. He would be an upgrade over McKinnie, and we can keep Oher where he belongs. Make it happen please!

[ravens rule]

Get him please.

[gabefergy]

McNeil was atrocious last year from what I saw of him. I would not be in favor of bringing him in unless it was on the cheap 3-4M per year.

[arnie_uk]

why did this get moved from ravens talk, hes a FA, isnt that the only reason that manning thread is allowed in ravens talk?

inconsistent modding!!!!!!

[GrimCoconut]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1331671178' post='1020085']
why did this get moved from ravens talk, hes a FA, isnt that the only reason that manning thread is allowed in ravens talk?

inconsistent modding!!!!!!
[/quote]
I'm a little confused as well. He's not an RFA or anything nor is this speculation. It was confirmed. We have countless topics about ridiculous RBs but moving a topic about an actual FA LT makes no sense. It should've been moved before, actually. Now I think it belongs in Ravens Talk.

Anyway, I still think it would be a good move to get McNeil. We could have our franchise LT & not have to draft the position. If we get him cheap I love it. That's really the only way I want McNeil is for McKinnie's price, which I find reasonable.