Let's Look At Our WR Situation Rationally...

[raybaby]

Okay I know the draft is fun because fans get to debate who the Ravens could pick up
but I'd like to give a rational point of view about receivers.

First, Joe needs consistency with his WRs... he can't keep getting new WRs every other year... that is not going to help him or the offense grow. Consistency is very important for a team as a whole. Ask the Giants owner when he referred to us as successful franchise for that reason.

Second, we all should know that with Cam as our OC... plugging in a different receiver is not going to make much of a difference... unless it is an extremely tall physical proven receiver like Megatron or Fitz who can literally catch anything and everything... which lets be real we aren't getting either of them.

Third, we need to give Evans some slack..... if we give Joe slack because of Cam... then we should have the same courtesy for our WRs... of course minus the drops. Cam rarely used 3 WRs sets... and when he did Pitta was usually the 3rd receiver... so really Evans was barely on the field... kind of hard to make an impact when you are only apart of limited snaps.

He is big, fast & showed he can make some incredible catches when he got the opportunity. Yes there were times that they tried to force it to him at the end of the regular season & turnovers happened and of course the fact that he relaxed on the biggest catch of his life... but I think he can be successful here with a full offseason compared to anyone else who would want to be our 3rd receiver. He will probably be the most motivated player on the field to help us get back to the ultimate goal.

He just needs to be apart of the game plan... you know actually be on the field to do some damage.

I still think Torrey & Evans on the sides & Boldin in the slot would be a deadly combination. Maybe Cam has his reasons why he didn't use that this season but I'm hoping he gets his head out of his [profanity deleted] & actually does it.

Sorry if there is another thread about this or if I repeated anyone... just wanted to get my opinion out there about it [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

[ravensdfan]

Rationally...you're just asking too much now lol

No, I agree. Let's face it, our FA WRs have not really had the planned effect on our offense anyway. I see no reason to bring in yet another one. I think we need to give Evans his chance next season. He and Joe did get the chemistry going pretty quickly actually and if he had not gotten injured I think he would have been productive. Let's remember too, while Evans is a veteran player he has never before in his career made the playoffs. It was his first time on the big stage.

We have a lot of FAs of our own this off season that IMO we should try to keep. I really want to keep this team as intact as possible going into next year. I think that is what would serve us best.

[raybaby]

Yeah I agree. Of course we can't keep everyone. I'm sure Oz will know who to keep to have the most consistency as possible. I'm hoping Evans will be okay with less money if it comes down to that. I just loved how he talked about the organization & how he really appreciated being apart of a special team. He always acknowledged that in his interviews. I think he is truly a team player... not like Housh who was so focused on the number of balls that came his way.

[tsizzle95]

i am all for keeping lee evans and not trying to get a big named receiver in free agency. I think it would help joe if we could give him the same exact receivers from last year because he has already gelled with them. Also, in the past two years , our season has ended by a receiver we got from free agency. Maybe its bad luck lol. I think if we beef up our o line and give flaco some time to throw, our offense will be much more high powered

[raybaby]

[quote name='tsizzle95' timestamp='1328655484' post='988785']
Also, in the past two years , our season has ended by a receiver we got from free agency. Maybe its bad luck lol.
[/quote]

Yeah I think we need to end that trend lol

[flynismo]

Point taken, but it matters little what kind of chemistry there is when the recievers can't catch or get open anyway.

[raybaby]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1328657498' post='988814']
Point taken, but it matters little what kind of chemistry there is when the recievers can't catch or get open anyway.
[/quote]

I think Evans dropped two balls total... in the Cinci game & NE game. Evans wasn't on the field enough to know if he got consistently open or not. And we have been talking about receiver separation for 2 seasons now... with different receivers... so what is the trend?? Though this season was worse... I think that had a lot to do with youth & inexperience.

[flynismo]

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1328658470' post='988830']

I think Evans dropped two balls total... in the Cinci game & NE game. Evans wasn't on the field enough to know if he got consistently open or not. And we have been talking about receiver separation for 2 seasons now... with different receivers... so what is the trend... hmm. Though this season was worse... I think that had a lot to do with youth & inexperience.
[/quote]

Both those passes Evans dropped were TDs; not a good thing when you were only targeted probably 20 times all year. He had a third pass bounce off his hands on a bomb in the playoffs; he was open and just bricked it. He's not a long term solution anyway; once his speed goes, he brings little value to us.

I think the trend of guys not getting open (Boldin, Clayton, Mason in the last year with us) has a lot more to do with their age / skill sets than anything else. We can blame Cam for that, but that's really not fair to him.

[True]

We rarely use 3 reciever sets because of Vonta Leach as he takes the FB spot. Some reason though Cam still decides to line out Leach at WR sometimes which for the life of me I can't understand..

Most of the plays are run from I-Formation, and the "Diesel" Package with the 2 TE set is typically the Big I with Pitta in the slot and Torrey on the outside or a Three Wide I when Evans goes on the outside and Boldin in the slot--this is a rare occurence.

Look at what kind of looks the defense is giving you and adjust your scheme and dictate your game plan to them in game instead of of the usual scripted stuff.

If Anquan can't beat his man on the outside, put him in the slot and bring in Evans for the outside. Did they forget how much of a monster Q was when you put him in the slot and in a bunch formation? Throw in a few rub routes and send the WRs in motion to spice things up.

If you want to stay with the running game use more Diesel Package because you still have two recieving threats at TE, plus a speedy WR on the outside for Play Action (which Flacco needs to sell better).

Just be less predictable and if the offense is going to be vanilla, at least make it look different, like call it French vanilla or something lol..

[The Raven]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1328659888' post='988866']
We rarely use 3 reciever sets because of Vonta Leach as he takes the FB spot. [b]Some reason though Cam still decides to line out Leach at WR sometimes which for the life of me I can't understand..[/b]

Most of the plays are run from I-Formation, and the "Diesel" Package with the 2 TE set is typically the Big I with Pitta in the slot and Torrey on the outside or a Three Wide I when Evans goes on the outside and Boldin in the slot--this is a rare occurence.

Look at what kind of looks the defense is giving you and adjust your scheme and dictate your game plan to them in game instead of of the usual scripted stuff.

If Anquan can't beat his man on the outside, put him in the slot and bring in Evans for the outside. Did they forget how much of a monster Q was when you put him in the slot and in a bunch formation? Throw in a few rub routes and send the WRs in motion to spice things up.

If you want to stay with the running game use more Diesel Package because you still have two recieving threats at TE, plus a speedy WR on the outside for Play Action (which Flacco needs to sell better).

Just be less predictable and if the offense is going to be vanilla, at least make it look different, like call it French vanilla or something lol..
[/quote]

We usually motion him back into the backfield, and even that can confuse coverages and defensive assignments. And even if he remains out wide, it catches the defense off guard. I know this is hard for people to believe, but thats something Cam does to remain unpredictable. Its funny how even by doing something not vanilla he still finds a way to get criticized.

[True]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1328660157' post='988877']

We usually motion him back into the backfield, and even that can confuse coverages and defensive assignments. And even if he remains out wide, it catches the defense off guard. I know this is hard for people to believe, but thats something Cam does to remain unpredictable. Its funny how even by doing something not vanilla he still finds a way to get criticized.
[/quote]
I get the point of it, but Leach is just too slow. If it was like a speedy or shifty back I'd get it like with Ray Rice, but I mean Vonta is a strict FB.

[The Raven]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1328660584' post='988885']
I get the point of it, but Leach is just too slow. If it was like a speedy or shifty back I'd get it like with Ray Rice, but I mean Vonta is a strict FB.
[/quote]

Well, like I said, it keeps the defense off balance, and it'd pull a LB out of the box to go cover the FB. It could be used to loosen up the defense.

[Grapple Raven]

Very well stated raybaby! I do have a feeling that if Ozzie says we need another WR that is what he is going to do...with that said by Ozzie...I sure hope if he chooses to get one it is a TALL one, 6'4 or over would be nice!

Ravensdfan, I totally agree 100% at trying to keep this team in tact as much as possible. This team had fantastic chemistry this past season and was loaded with talent, spackle the few holes we have and go with the adadge "if it ain't broke don't fix it"!

[raybaby]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1328658831' post='988839']

Both those passes Evans dropped were TDs; not a good thing when you were only targeted probably 20 times all year. He had a third pass bounce off his hands on a bomb in the playoffs; he was open and just bricked it. He's not a long term solution anyway; once his speed goes, he brings little value to us.

I think the trend of guys not getting open (Boldin, Clayton, Mason in the last year with us) has a lot more to do with their age / skill sets than anything else. We can blame Cam for that, but that's really not fair to him.
[/quote]

I mean we can agree to disagree. Judging a player on limited circumstances in an offense that typically stalled is a little rash IMO. I mean were we all not excited for these FA receivers to come onto our team & then by the end of the season.. we say that they sucked? Evans has a lot of upside. And I'm not someone who wanted to keep Housh so I'm not someone who is a complete homer. Another question... what 'quality' receiver do you think is going to want to come here as the 3rd receiver knowing that the Ravens 3rd receiver doesn't typically get a lot of production?

Our receivers have a lot of youth yet we struggled a lot more this season with separation.. so how is it all an 'old' thing? Mason always ran clean routes... probably one of the best at it... Joe could throw the ball before he got there because he knew he would be where he needed to be. Boldin yes has a hard time getting open up the sideline but in the slot he can beat anyone... yet another coach had to tell Cam to use him in the slot in the Pitt game... if that doesn't happen... we don't win. Period. And Clayton wasn't on the team last year.

There is more to a receiver than just speed... which we did have this year. Last year we only had receivers who were good at intermediate routes and didn't have that receiver who could stretch the field... this year we have that so now what is the excuse? You know you are suppose to game plan around your talent not the other way around. So why didn't we see Evans & Smith on sides with Boldin in the slot?

It is a known fact now that Cam doesn't do anything to help his receivers get open.. this isn't a myth.. now if you want to blame Joe for not being able to handle more & that's why Cam runs what he runs... fine but this offense is not very WR friendly. I'm accepting we're keeping Cam but at the same time I'm not going to jump the gun and call a WR a bust based on the type of offense we run, the amount of time he was actually on the field & what he has proven on other teams.

[JO_75]

I agree with the OP, plus we'll also have something we didn't have last season. Mini Camps and a full Training Camp for Joe and the receivers to develop a better consistency. Plus Lee Evans should be healthier which will help Joe out a ton.

[flynismo]

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1328662826' post='988940']

I mean we can agree to disagree. Judging a player on limited circumstances in an offense that typically stalled is a little rash IMO. I mean were we all not excited for these FA receivers to come onto our team & then by the end of the season.. we say that they sucked? Evans has a lot of upside. And I'm not someone who wanted to keep Housh so I'm not someone who is a complete homer. Another question... what 'quality' receiver do you think is going to want to come here as the 3rd receiver knowing that the Ravens 3rd receiver doesn't typically get a lot of production?

[/quote]

What are the limited circumstances? Boldin has been here for two years. Clayton was here forever. So was Mason.

Mason hit the wall very suddenly due to his age and lack of mobility, and Clayton just flatout sucked. They were the reasons why we traded for Boldin, signed TJ, traded for Evans and drafted Torrey.

If you ask me, the main reason we dont run a lot of 3 wr sets is because we simply dont have the talent to. Once Lee finally came back, we actually started running more 3 WR sets. I see no reason why any quality receiver would not want to come over here.

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1328662826' post='988940']
Our receivers have a lot of youth yet we struggled a lot more this season with separation.. so how is it all an 'old' thing?
[/quote]

Because the only WR who got any seperation with any consistency at all was Torrey. Boldin struggled badly. And like I said, it's not just an age thing, it is a skill set issue as well.

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1328662826' post='988940']
Mason always ran clean routes... probably one of the best at it... Joe could throw the ball before he got there because he knew he would be where he needed to be. Boldin yes has a hard time getting open up the sideline but in the slot he can beat anyone... yet another coach had to tell Cam to use him in the slot in the Pitt game... if that doesn't happen... we don't win. Period. And Clayton wasn't on the team last year.
[/quote]

Did you watch Mason his last year here? Even his signature outs and comebacks were an adventure, because there was always a defender in his pocket.

Boldin playing in the slot has nothing to do with his ability to get open. Again, it is a skill set issue (as well as mismanagement by Cam). Boldin isn't suddenly open when he lines up in the slot, he just normally gets better matchups and has more open field to work with; which he needs given his skill set.


[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1328662826' post='988940']
There is more to a receiver than just speed... which we did have this year. Last year we only had receivers who were good at intermediate routes and didn't have that receiver who could stretch the field... this year we have that so now what is the excuse? You know you are suppose to game plan around your talent not the other way around. So why didn't we see Evans & Smith on sides with Boldin in the slot?
[/quote]


Maybe we didn't see Evans & Smith on sides with Boldin in the slot because Evans was hurt almost all year??
And like I just said above, that is exactly what we saw once Evans returned.



[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1328662826' post='988940']
It is a known fact now that Cam doesn't do anything to help his receivers get open.. this isn't a myth..
[/quote]


Interesting. From what I can see, Cam doesn't do anything to help his receivers catch the ball either.

[flynismo]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1328660157' post='988877']

We usually motion him back into the backfield, and even that can confuse coverages and defensive assignments. And even if he remains out wide, it catches the defense off guard. I know this is hard for people to believe, but thats something Cam does to remain unpredictable. Its funny how even by doing something not vanilla he still finds a way to get criticized.
[/quote]

Cam will never get the credit he deserves (which isn't much in my opinion, but still, he is not nearly the idiot people try to make him out to be.)

Perfect example was the poster I just responded to. He wants to know why we didn't see Evans and Torrey outside with Q in the slot -- when in reality that is EXACTLY what Cam did when Evans returned.

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1328665888' post='988983']
Cam will never get the credit he deserves (which isn't much in my opinion, but still, he is not nearly the idiot people try to make him out to be.)

Perfect example was the poster I just responded to. He wants to know why we didn't see Evans and Torrey outside with Q in the slot -- when in reality that is EXACTLY what Cam did when Evans returned.
[/quote]
Dude a girl in a bar called out first 6 plays on game man. It was soooo funny. Like she was like "well I have watched 7 games so far they always run the same thing"

[flynismo]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1328666613' post='988993']
Dude a girl in a bar called out first 6 plays on game man. It was soooo funny. Like she was like "well I have watched 7 games so far they always run the same thing"
[/quote]

Did she call which gap Rice would hit, and what routes the recievers and TE would run?

Or was it, "Ray Rice to the left" or "Flacco passing the ball".

The latter isn't exactly "calling out the plays"; so if that's what she did, it's not very impressive.


Either way, it doesn't really matter. My point is, no matter what he does, Cam will not get any credit for anything, but will take all the heat when a WR drops a ball or can't do his job and beat one on one coverage.

[The Raven]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1328665888' post='988983']
Cam will never get the credit he deserves (which isn't much in my opinion, but still, he is not nearly the idiot people try to make him out to be.)

Perfect example was the poster I just responded to. He wants to know why we didn't see Evans and Torrey outside with Q in the slot -- when in reality that is EXACTLY what Cam did when Evans returned.
[/quote]

Yep. He's much better than believed to be. I just made a post in the Cam thread going into a bit of detail about this sorta thing, if you're interested.

[raybaby]

Limited circumstances.......... regarding Lee Evans... you know because he was injured and then when he got healthy we was rarely on the field....... can you really say that he wasn't?? We did not use Lee much in 3 WR sets. Pitta was used more than Lee was. What games were you watching? Please give me an estimated number of snaps you think Lee Evans was in for.

Someone who watches game film for a living said our receivers ran the same routes over and over again... that it is very predictable and Cam does nothing to help them get open... that Lee Evans was in for only a select number of snaps. Just because the receivers aren't the best at getting separation doesn't mean none of the blame falls on Cam.... as an offensive coordinator it is your responsibility to keep defenses on their toes... make game time adjustments if the offense stalls.... you can't keep running the same thing over and over again when it is not working and expect for the outcome to be different.... if your receivers aren't getting open... then do something about it.

Because guess what we have the receivers that we have... this is not going to change any time soon. So Cam should be game planning around them. Period. If Boldin is good in the slot than he should be in the slot more often than not. It doesn't matter the reason why he is. Because if he starts getting a lot production than the defense will have to adjust for him which will then help the other receivers get open. Play to your players strengths. And don't tell Cam uses him in the slot enough. That is far from true.

[flynismo]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1328667392' post='989005']

Yep. He's much better than believed to be. I just made a post in the Cam thread going into a bit of detail about this sorta thing, if you're interested.
[/quote]

I saw it; question posted!

[flynismo]

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1328667433' post='989008']
Limited circumstances.......... regarding Lee Evans... you know because he was injured and then when he got healthy we was rarely on the field....... can you really say that he wasn't?? We did not use Lee much in 3 WR sets. Pitta was used more than Lee was. What games were you watching? Please give me an estimated number of snaps you think Lee Evans was in for.

Someone who watches game film for a living said our receivers ran the same routes over and over again... that it is very predictable and Cam does nothing to help them get open... that Lee Evans was in for only a select number of snaps. Just because the receivers aren't the best at getting separation doesn't mean none of the blame falls on Cam.... as an offensive coordinator it is your responsibility to keep defenses on their toes... make game time adjustments if the offense stalls.... you can't keep running the same thing over and over again when it is not working and except for the outcome to be different.... if your receivers aren't getting open... then do something about it.

Because guess what we have the receivers that we have... this is not going to change any time soon. So Cam should be game planning around them. Period. If Boldin is good in the slot than he should be in the slot more often than not. It doesn't matter the reason why he is. Because if he starts getting a lot production than the defense will have to adjust for him which will then help the other receivers get open. Play to your players strengths. And don't tell Cam uses him in the slot enough. That is far from true.
[/quote]


Nobody said Cam is God's gift to OC. He is part of the problem.

But it is tiring, and honestly quite annoying, to listen to people blaming him for WR not being able to beat single coverage -- which is the whole friggin' goal when you call a pass play -- and not acknowledge that many, many drops have ruined otherwise fantastic play calls.

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1328667077' post='989000']

Did she call which gap Rice would hit, and what routes the recievers and TE would run?

Or was it, "Ray Rice to the left" or "Flacco passing the ball".

The latter isn't exactly "calling out the plays"; so if that's what she did, it's not very impressive.


Either way, it doesn't really matter. My point is, no matter what he does, Cam will not get any credit for anything, but will take all the heat when a WR drops a ball or can't do his job and beat one on one coverage.
[/quote]

LOL I agree with you but its still funny(kinda you had to be there on your 5th beer to appreciate it). It was like she was like short pass to Ray Rice. Run left run right. dude it was funny. Still We had guys calling routes and stuff. Like I later found out we had a lot of guys who played ball in some way. I think Its everyones fault. Win as a team lose as one.

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1328667733' post='989025']


Nobody said Cam is God's gift to OC. He is part of the problem.

But it is tiring, and honestly quite annoying, to listen to people blaming him for WR not being able to beat single coverage -- which is the whole friggin' goal when you call a pass play -- and not acknowledge that many, many drops have ruined otherwise fantastic play calls.
[/quote]

Put when you call plays to players that is not their strength then it is a problem. Boldin Running go routes is a joke.

[flynismo]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1328667735' post='989027']

LOL I agree with you but its still funny(kinda you had to be there on your 5th beer to appreciate it). It was like she was like short pass to Ray Rice. Run left run right. dude it was funny. Still We had guys calling routes and stuff. Like I later found out we had a lot of guys who played ball in some way. I think Its everyones fault. Win as a team lose as one.
[/quote]

I think it's humorous too, considering the criticism that Cam gets for being predictable.

But bottom line is exactly what you said -- win as a team, lose as a team.

[raybaby]

This was not even suppose to be a Cam hate thread. I'm not saying Cam doesn't have a good offensive mind at times. But it is a known fact that he is very stubborn and arrogant. Quoted from ex players that played for him. And I'm one of the people who might not like him but get why he is staying.

This was about Lee getting another chance on the team. Because he was not on the field much even when he got healthy and he has a lot of upside and this season isn't a fair assessment of what he can do for the team. And realistically for what we are trying to do this off season there would not be a better quality receiver that would want to be our # 3... and if we some how do get another FA receiver don't complain when we don't get much out of them their first year here either.

[flynismo]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1328667860' post='989030']

Put when you call plays to players that is not their strength then it is a problem. Boldin Running go routes is a joke.
[/quote]


True, but how often does that actually happen? Not very often this season, since now we actually have the proper players to run the deep routes.

Like I said, Cam is definitely part of the reason for our offense's problems. But far from the only one.

[flynismo]

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1328668104' post='989041']
This was not even suppose to be a Cam hate thread. I'm not saying Cam doesn't have a good offensive mind at times. But it is a known fact that he is very stubborn and arrogant. Quoted from ex players that played for him. And I'm one of the people who might not like him but get why he is staying.

This was about Lee getting another chance on the team. Because he was not on the field much even when he got healthy and he has a lot of upside and this season isn't a fair assessment of what he can do for the team. And realistically for what we are trying to do this off season there would not be a better quality receiver that would want to be our # 3... and if we some how do get another FA receiver don't complain when we don't get much out of them their first year here either.
[/quote]


Lee can have another chance, if the money is right. The guy is getting up there in age (will be 32 next month), and now is becoming an injury concern.

He has one, maybe two more years before his speed leaves him, and then he becomes an undersized possession receiver. I'd rather spend that time developing a long term solution to replace Boldin once he is gone than wasting time on a 32 year old backup.

[cobrajet]

Call me crazy but I would like to free up some cap space for a proven #1 WR free agent. Maybe Cam can shock me and use our WR's more effectively. Of course that is contingent on us upgrading at Center to improve our line.

I know that means cutting ties with some of our FA's, but Joe has sold me on his passing ability.

However, I am pretty sure we won't be signing Colston, Bowe, or VJax.