Top QBs

[T-ray]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1328703522' post='989239']

So Trent Dilfer really is better than Marino?
[/quote]

Dilfer didn't beat an elite Qb, brotha. Plus, I take stats into account for like 40% and rings for the next 60%. So while Dilfer has one super bowl, he does not have stats to back that up, so no, he is not even in the talks lol

[T-ray]

I can't stand Peyton Manning one bit.

[BloodRaven]

[quote name='T-ray' timestamp='1328704938' post='989258']

Dilfer didn't beat an elite Qb, brotha. Plus, I take stats into account for like 40% and rings for the next 60%. So while Dilfer has one super bowl, he does not have stats to back that up, so no, he is not even in the talks lol
[/quote]

I was being sarcastic. lol.

[IMissMattStover]

[quote name='T-ray' timestamp='1328704953' post='989259']
I can't stand Peyton Manning one bit.
[/quote]

Join the club. Eli is the better Manning by far.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1328661448' post='988901']
Again, one great year doesn't make a QB elite. Look at his stats throughout his career. His average QB rating in the regular season is a measly 81.2. It's been better recently, but he still hovers around a 90 passer rating. I don't think it's much to ask for an elite QB to have more than two years with a rating over 90, even if he has two rings.
[/quote]

Troy Aikman's career regular season rating was 80. He never threw more than 24 TDs in a season He managed the game and handed the ball off to Emmitt Smith a lot. But check his postseason numbers - in the Cowboy's three Superbowls, he turned into Superman. Trent Dilfer calls him "a top 5 QB all time" and "the greatest game manager of all time". It's not a slight on either Aikman or Eli that they had good teams around them - Brady was the same way when the Pats won 3 Superbowls. They made plays when they needed to, but not all of the plays. That's also what Flacco does for us.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1328653727' post='988744']
Probably the 3rd tier.
[/quote]

But does that mean he's still in your top 10, or is it broken up by 5s or something like that? Cause to me, I'd take Rodgers, Rivers, Eli, Peyton, Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger over Flacco, and that's it. I originally put Romo and Shaub ahead of him, but looking deeper into Shaub, he puts up numbers against bad teams with Andre Johnson, but he struggles against elite defenses - since Flacco plays the Steelers twice a year and the Bengals and Browns have great pass defenses, I think Flacco, despite the numbers difference, is a better qb than Shaub. Romo chokes a lot when the game is on the line, and for the most part in Flacco's career, especially this year when it matters, he answered the bell. But to me that's where Flacco fits, in with Romo and Shaub, but better than both. Stafford had one good healthy season, and he also has a freak at WR - I've seen CJ catch waaay too many passes in double and triple coverage - he's always at least double covered and he still makes huge plays - I haven't seen a guy do that since Randy Moss in his prime with Minnesota.

[Jamal]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1328886767' post='991182']

But does that mean he's still in your top 10, or is it broken up by 5s or something like that? Cause to me, I'd take Rodgers, Rivers, Eli, Peyton, Brees, Brady, Roethlisberger over Flacco, and that's it. I originally put Romo and Shaub ahead of him, but looking deeper into Shaub, he puts up numbers against bad teams with Andre Johnson, but he struggles against elite defenses - since Flacco plays the Steelers twice a year and the Bengals and Browns have great pass defenses, I think Flacco, despite the numbers difference, is a better qb than Shaub. Romo chokes a lot when the game is on the line, and for the most part in Flacco's career, especially this year when it matters, he answered the bell. But to me that's where Flacco fits, in with Romo and Shaub, but better than both. Stafford had one good healthy season, and he also has a freak at WR - I've seen CJ catch waaay too many passes in double and triple coverage - he's always at least double covered and he still makes huge plays - I haven't seen a guy do that since Randy Moss in his prime with Minnesota.
[/quote]
My Top 10: (Assuming Peyton comes back healthy next year)
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Peyton Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Phillip Rivers
7. Eli Manning
8. Tony Romo
9. Michael Vick
10 - tied. Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1328886422' post='991175']

Troy Aikman's career regular season rating was 80. He never threw more than 24 TDs in a season He managed the game and handed the ball off to Emmitt Smith a lot. But check his postseason numbers - in the Cowboy's three Superbowls, he turned into Superman. Trent Dilfer calls him "a top 5 QB all time" and "the greatest game manager of all time". It's not a slight on either Aikman or Eli that they had good teams around them - Brady was the same way when the Pats won 3 Superbowls. They made plays when they needed to, but not all of the plays. That's also what Flacco does for us.
[/quote]
Face it, the game has changed since then. An 80 passer rating simply isn't what it used to be. Not when15-20 QBs a year surpass that number. Two Super Bowls are great for Eli, but two years alone doesn't make an elite QB. Maybe if they were his only two years we'd call him elite, but they're part of a larger sample of mediocrity. As I said, Eli doesn't need any more postseason prowess to be considered elite. He just needs to up his regular season numbers. I'm just saying it's not enough to call him elite.

[PWNEDbyDEANO]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1328888182' post='991200']
My Top 10: (Assuming Peyton comes back healthy next year)
1. Aaron Rodgers
2. Tom Brady
3. Drew Brees
4. Peyton Manning
5. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Phillip Rivers
7. Eli Manning
8. Tony Romo
9. Michael Vick
10 - tied. Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco
[/quote]

I think that's a reasonable list, except that going on recent reports about Manning's throwing indicating that he won't be entirely the same player when he returns and I think Stafford belongs in the discussion now, I'd possibly swap him with Vick.

[arnie_uk]

vick depends if where talking about passing here or the whole package, the whole pakcage, on his day vick is right up there, but if yyour just talking about passing id have ryan schaub joe and stafford ahead of him

[ravefan52]

Stafford should not be with Joe and Rivers. He is good but hasnt proved much. I like him and im not saying he cant get there. But hes too young and not a lot of body of work. Flacco and Rivers would be in the elite tier if they won a SB.

[jaege]

I would not put Peyton Manning in the present elite status, myself. Was he elite, yes. He was one of the greatest to ever play. Is he still? He did not play a snap last season, and word is he still has nerve damage that may never heal. His elite status may be all in the past. I would have him on the IR when listing present QBs.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='ravefan52' timestamp='1329017972' post='992374']
Stafford should not be with Joe and Rivers. He is good but hasnt proved much. I like him and im not saying he cant get there. But hes too young and not a lot of body of work. Flacco and Rivers would be in the elite tier if they won a SB.
[/quote]
His numbers were very good last year when he finally stayed healthy.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1328894135' post='991297']
Face it, the game has changed since then. An 80 passer rating simply isn't what it used to be. Not when15-20 QBs a year surpass that number. Two Super Bowls are great for Eli, but two years alone doesn't make an elite QB. Maybe if they were his only two years we'd call him elite, but they're part of a larger sample of mediocrity. As I said, Eli doesn't need any more postseason prowess to be considered elite. [b]He just needs to up his regular season numbers.[/b] I'm just saying it's not enough to call him elite.
[/quote]

Not really. Look at Roethlisberger's stats from 2005 and 2008, when the Steelers won the Superbowl - he had a combined 23 TDs and 24 picks in those two seasons, and didn't cross 3500 yards passing in either season (I know he didn't start all of 05, but even projecting for the games he missed doesn't give him big numbers). Ben's QB rating in 08 was 80. Or Eli Manning's from 2007 - he led the league in INTs that year and his QB rating was 73.9 - still won a Superbowl. It's all about playing well at the right time. Joe's numbers in the regular season certainly can improve, but the regular season is certainly not a predictor of postseason success i.e. Troy Aikman.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1329164954' post='993294']

Not really. Look at Roethlisberger's stats from 2005 and 2008, when the Steelers won the Superbowl - he had a combined 23 TDs and 24 picks in those two seasons, and didn't cross 3500 yards passing in either season (I know he didn't start all of 05, but even projecting for the games he missed doesn't give him big numbers). Ben's QB rating in 08 was 80. Or Eli Manning's from 2007 - he led the league in INTs that year and his QB rating was 73.9 - still won a Superbowl. It's all about playing well at the right time. Joe's numbers in the regular season certainly can improve, but the regular season is certainly not a predictor of postseason success i.e. Troy Aikman.
[/quote]
I don't have Roethlisberger in the elite category either so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Elite QBs can get their teams to the playoffs regardless of who's around them. The Steelers tanked in 09 when Polamalu and Aaron Smith went out. Eli hadn't made the playoffs in the past two years. Now name the last time Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Drew Brees missed the playoffs.

[Ravens4Real]

[quote name='ravefan52' timestamp='1329017972' post='992374']
Stafford should not be with Joe and Rivers. He is good but hasnt proved much. I like him and im not saying he cant get there. But hes too young and not a lot of body of work. Flacco and Rivers would be in the elite tier if they won a SB.
[/quote]

The guy threw for over 5,000 yards this year and frankly his team is not very good outside of Calvin Johnson. I don't believe Flacco has even made it over 3,630. That is almost 1400 yard difference. Without the injury history of Stafford, I would take him in a heartbeat over Flacco.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1329170076' post='993354']
[b]I don't have Roethlisberger in the elite category either[/b] so I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Elite QBs can get their teams to the playoffs regardless of who's around them. The Steelers tanked in 09 when Polamalu and Aaron Smith went out. Eli hadn't made the playoffs in the past two years. Now name the last time Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Drew Brees missed the playoffs.
[/quote]

I guess that's where we differ. I think Roethlisberger is the 5th best qb in the league behind the 4 guys you mentioned. As far as missing the playoffs, Rodgers missed it his first year starting despite putting up big numbers (2008 - 4000 yards, 28 TDs), and Brees put up big number is 2007 and 2008, in fact had 5000 yards in 08, almost 1000 yards and 62 TDs combined in 07 and 08 - so yeah, I would definitely say an "elite quarterback" who puts up big numbers, huge numbers can't get his team to the playoffs if they aren't very good around him.

Also, by your definition, that would mean Elvis Grbac was once an elite quarterback since he once finished a season with 4200 yards and 28 TDs, or Daunte Culpepper the same season who finished with 3900 yards and 33 TDs, which led the league that year, and his team got into the playoffs. By your definition, Flacco will NEVER be elite, since this is a team that's built on running the ball - he won't pass for 4000 yards consistently here, because we won't throw the ball enough.

I define an elite quarterback as a guy who can make plays to help his team win no matter the situation, and I think Roethlisberger has shown enough of that to warrant being called elite.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1329178604' post='993484']

I guess that's where we differ. I think Roethlisberger is the 5th best qb in the league behind the 4 guys you mentioned. As far as missing the playoffs, Rodgers missed it his first year starting despite putting up big numbers (2008 - 4000 yards, 28 TDs), and Brees put up big number is 2007 and 2008, in fact had 5000 yards in 08, almost 1000 yards and 62 TDs combined in 07 and 08 - so yeah, I would definitely say an "elite quarterback" who puts up big numbers, huge numbers can't get his team to the playoffs if they aren't very good around him.
[/quote]
Rodgers missed in 2009, but was Rodgers an elite QB in 2009? And yes, Brees missed in 2007 and 2008. Not sure if he was considered elite then. Even still, in a sample of 10+ years that's one missed playoff team. Playoff prowess counts, but you need a complete team to succeed in the playoffs. Some QBs, even elite, do not have that and they can't make up for it against playoff competition. You know that no team with a defense as bad as NE's this year had ever won the Super Bowl. The playoffs is when an elite QB stops being able to do it on his own. A team like Ben's or Eli's makes it so that he doesn't have to do it all, and stats over a long period of time show that.

I will agree that this is my own system and is not the one you have to believe in.

[Gordo52]

To me, elite QBs can make the plays when they count and can lead their teams back to victory.
Stats dont always matter.
Ben is a playmaker, and so is Eli,Brady,Rodgers,Brees, and Peyton.

[raybaby]

[quote name='Ravens4Real' timestamp='1329175227' post='993433']

The guy threw for over 5,000 yards this year and frankly his team is not very good outside of Calvin Johnson. I don't believe Flacco has even made it over 3,630. That is almost 1400 yard difference. Without the injury history of Stafford, I would take him in a heartbeat over Flacco.
[/quote]

Based off one season? In a completely different offensive system? With throw it up anywhere and I will catch it Calvin Johnson as his receiver? In the NFC that is extremely weak in defense? You think he'd put those numbers up in the Ravens run first, lack of receiver separation offense, that plays multiple stout defenses throughout the season year after year? OooK.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1329190030' post='993629']
To me, elite QBs [b]can make the plays when they count and can lead their teams back to victory.[/b]
[b]Stats dont always matter.[/b]
Ben is a playmaker, and so is Eli,Brady,Rodgers,Brees, and Peyton.
[/quote]

That's kind of my point. I call Ben elite because even though he doesn't have to do it all the time, when his team needs him to deliver he does. Or an easier way to put it, big numbers doesn't equal elite, consistently making big plays to help your team win makes you elite.

[Ravens4Real]

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1329192452' post='993651']

Based off one season? In a completely different offensive system? With throw it up anywhere and I will catch it Calvin Johnson as his receiver? In the NFC that is extremely weak in defense? You think he'd put those numbers up in the Ravens run first, lack of receiver separation offense, that plays multiple stout defenses throughout the season year after year? OooK.
[/quote]

Sorry, it may hurt you and you may whine, but Stafford has the tools to be an elite QB which is why he was choosin number 1 overall. Are you really going to sit there and act like Flacco would throw for 5,000 yards if given the chance to air it out like Stafford does? He'll No! Flacco is a very good QB but I would be shocked if he ever hit 4,500 yards let alone coming within a couple passes of the NFL passing record that stood for 27 years.

[raybaby]

[quote name='Ravens4Real' timestamp='1329198479' post='993697']

Sorry, it may hurt you and you may whine, but Stafford has the tools to be an elite QB which is why he was choosin number 1 overall. Are you really going to sit there and act like Flacco would throw for 5,000 yards if given the chance to air it out like Stafford does? He'll No! Flacco is a very good QB but I would be shocked if he ever hit 4,500 yards let alone coming within a couple passes of the NFL passing record that stood for 27 years.
[/quote]

No I'm 'whining' or 'hurting' from what you said... I just don't agree that Stafford would be anything like what he was this season in Joe's offense and division. See the point wasn't about what Joe would do on another team but what Stafford would do as a Raven. So no I'm not blindly saying Joe would throw a bunch of yards on a different team. I just think it is foolish to judge a quarterback on one season, in a weak defensive conference, with a stud like Megatron as a receiver. Stafford has yet to prove anything year in and year out. Has yet to go against the top defenses and orchestrate game winning drives. Does that mean Stafford won't become an elite QB and win multiple SBs? No. Do I think he would fit well as a Raven QB? Not really. Could he be a better fit than Joe? Who knows. Considering that he is technically injury prone... I don't think he would last in this division. I don't think he would put up much better numbers in a run first, don't screw it up offense with the type of weapons the Ravens have and with defensive leaders breathing down his neck. So maybe your a numbers guy but numbers don't tell the whole story. Maybe Stafford will be one of the elite QBs for years to come and will shine against the best defenses and shine in multiple final minute drives..until then...

[raybaby]

You could then argue that we are a run first, don't screw it up kind of offense because of Joe. But that is the type of system Cam ran in San Diego as well... heavily run and conservative when they had the lead.. difference was the Chargers had weapons that better suited his coryell offense so their offense as a whole was better.. though the QB numbers were not much different from Joe. That is just the way it is. Our offense gets in rhythm by the run. Our O line is more comfortable with the run. That has been the Ravens mentality from the beginning because of the type of division they are in. So I don't think how the Ravens go about things would change if Stafford was our QB. Do you disagree?

[flynismo]

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1329201978' post='993724']

No I'm 'whining' or 'hurting' from what you said... I just don't agree that Stafford would be anything like what he was this season in Joe's offense and division. See the point wasn't about what Joe would do on another team but what Stafford would do as a Raven. So no I'm not blindly saying Joe would throw a bunch of yards on a different team. I just think it is foolish to judge a quarterback on one season, in a weak defensive conference, with a stud like Megatron as a receiver. Stafford has yet to prove anything year in and year out. Has yet to go against the top defenses and orchestrate game winning drives. Does that mean Stafford won't become an elite QB and win multiple SBs? No. Do I think he would fit well as a Raven QB? Not really. Could he be a better fit than Joe? Who knows. Considering that he is technically injury prone... I don't think he would last in this division. I don't think he would put up much better numbers in a run first, don't screw it up offense with the type of weapons the Ravens have and with defensive leaders breathing down his neck. So maybe your a numbers guy but numbers don't tell the whole story. Maybe Stafford will be one of the elite QBs for years to come and will shine against the best defenses and shine in multiple final minute drives..until then...
[/quote]


I hear ya, but anyone who has watched Stafford play in college knew this kid was going to be special. The only surprise here is that he is even better than anticipated.

I thought he was 10x the prospect Bradford was, and I know I wasn't the only one who thought so. He'd be a great QB no matter where he plays.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravens4Real' timestamp='1329198479' post='993697']
Are you really going to sit there and act like Flacco would throw for 5,000 yards if given the chance to air it out like Stafford does? He'll No! Flacco is a very good QB but I would be shocked if he ever hit 4,500 yards let alone coming within a couple passes of the NFL passing record that stood for 27 years.
[/quote]


Put Flacco in Detroit, and I think you might be eating those words!

[raybaby]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1329203368' post='993736']


I hear ya, but anyone who has watched Stafford play in college knew this kid was going to be special. The only surprise here is that he is even better than anticipated.

I thought he was 10x the prospect Bradford was, and I know I wasn't the only one who thought so. He'd be a great QB no matter where he plays.
[/quote]

Oh no denying he has all the potential in the world to be great for years to come. I just think he'd have similar numbers to Joe if he were a Raven... probably a little bit better but nothing too devastating. I don't think from a physical stand point he'd be a rock like Flacco has though and not miss a game. Not many quarterbacks could handle our division. Big Ben is tough for playing through injuries but I think Joe is more sturdy.. he doesn't get injured easily.. knock on wood. I think people take that for granted.

[Alexir]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1328554073' post='987078']
Flacco is not in the 2nd tier of QB's....
[/quote]
This is why people criticize him. People with bias opinions put him on a pedestal and it's inevitable that when something goes wrong, they are going to smash that pedestal down.

What has Flacco done to deserve 2nd tier? Keep in mind Wins are by teams. What separates him from the Cam Newtons, Tony Romos, Matt Ryans, Michael Vicks, Matt Schaubs and Matthew Staffords?

Not knocking Joe here, just trying to comprehend how you have him above these people. It has to come down to the wins, because thats the only thing I can think of. That and his toughness.

[darklight1216]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1329205957' post='993742']
This is why people criticize him. People with bias opinions put him on a pedestal and it's inevitable that when something goes wrong, they are going to smash that pedestal down.

What has Flacco done to deserve 2nd tier? Keep in mind Wins are by teams. What separates him from the Cam Newtons, Tony Romos, Matt Ryans, Michael Vicks, Matt Schaubs and Matthew Staffords?[/quote]
What separates Romo (96.9 career passer rating) and Rivers (95.5) from Brady (96.4)? To many people, it's something that starts with a "W."
Brady, Brees, and Stafford all passed for 5,000 yards last year, but one of these qbs is not like the others and once again it comes down to the wins.

This isn't directed specifically at you, but I always wonder why everyone is so eager to say that wins "are a team stat," and then act as though receivers, tight ends, and running backs aren't responsible for receptions, yards, and touchdowns. Let's not forget the offensive linemen who keep their signal callers from getting flattened, the defenses that generate turnovers to get said quarterback back on the field (unless of course that qb is Joe Flacco - then no one can stop talking about the defense), and the special team members who who turn otherwise meaningless yards into field goals and score extra points..
[quote]
Not knocking Joe here, just trying to comprehend how you have him above these people. It has to come down to the wins, because thats the only thing I can think of. That and his toughness.
[/quote]
"You play to win the game."

[Alexir]

[quote name='darklight1216' timestamp='1329265620' post='994180']
What separates Romo (96.9 career passer rating) and Rivers (95.5) from Brady (96.4)? To many people, it's something that starts with a "W."
Brady, Brees, and Stafford all passed for 5,000 yards last year, but one of these qbs is not like the others and once again it comes down to the wins.

This isn't directed specifically at you, but I always wonder why everyone is so eager to say that wins "are a team stat," and then act as though receivers, tight ends, and running backs aren't responsible for receptions, yards, and touchdowns. Let's not forget the offensive linemen who keep their signal callers from getting flattened, the defenses that generate turnovers to get said quarterback back on the field (unless of course that qb is Joe Flacco - then no one can stop talking about the defense), and the special team members who who turn otherwise meaningless yards into field goals and score extra points..

"You play to win the game."
[/quote]
No. That's not how you measure a great QB. Peyton was great before he won a super bowl because he made all the throws and could lead his team from behind.

HAHAHA, Love how you all put the Wins on the QB when the Defense is doing all the hard work. You really havent ever played a team sport if you think it takes one person to win a game and we don't put W's on Ray Rice's Resume like we do Joe's when Ray carrys our offense.