Greg Cosell Slams Ravens Recievers And Cam Cameron

[ratedr]

[quote name='raybaby' timestamp='1327014708' post='959253']
I've been saying this all season........... Cam is the worst thing about the Ravens............. And Joe gets the flack for it........ if we didn't have a QB with the throwing skill set that Joe has........ we wouldn't even be in the playoffs.
[/quote]That's exactly what Ross Tucker said...he said he couldn't imagine our offense with someone who has average throwing skills and an average arm (Flacco is off the charts with respect to both, he said).

[Perfekt]

We all have pretty much come to realize the problem isnt Flacco but the problem of no adjustments just simple football that everyone knows is coming. If Cam really wants to stay here he better start by game planning for a full 60 mins instead of just enough to make the defense have to win the game.

[BloodRaven]

Thank God for Ray Rice.

[jdynamite]

I don't know who Greg Cosell is. But I wish Chris Berman, Terry Bradshaw, Jimmy Johnson, Phil Simms people of that nature within the media would make a point of calling out Cam Cameron's lack of creative play calling. It's Not that the WRs just can't get open or beat man coverage but when WRs seemingly only run a hand full of routes and defenders have seen this on film what else can they do....
Cams idea of creative play call is his End-around plays. Or vontee leach screen...

We rarely if ever do WR quick screens, slants, pick and pop routes, hitch and gos, drags across middle or line TE out wide to get a lb in space.
We finally get a true deep threat and now our play action pass game is none existent!

[raybaby]

[quote name='ratedr' timestamp='1327014827' post='959255']
That's exactly what Ross Tucker said...he said he couldn't imagine our offense with someone who has average throwing skills and an average arm (Flacco is off the charts with respect to both, he said).
[/quote]

Yup & analyst have been commenting about his completion percentage (Elliot Harrison) all season saying how this is why he is "so inconsistent"... I've rarely seen him make inaccurate throws. All QBs have at least 3 off throws a game.... and from the Texans game I saw just 3 from Joe as well.... everything else was on the money.

[raybaby]

It makes me physically sick how they makes these statements about how his receivers are bailing him out when they made what? 2 highlight worthy plays all game? and the rest of the time there was no one to go to & then when he somehow got it to them they couldn't hold on to the ball?

[BloodRaven]

The guys at PFF can't help but mention the offensive gameplan when talking about Leach and how he is utilised.

[quote][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, Verdana, Geneva][size=3][left]As it turned out, [b]the Ravens game plan was so conservative[/b] that he ended up playing an awful lot more than his season average. Let’s have a look at how he did.[/left][/size][/font][/left][font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, Verdana, Geneva][size=3][left][b]Let’s begin by saying the Ravens are not the Saints … 24 times they had a first down situation and on 22 of them Vonta was in the formation. [/b]Of their 17 third or fourth down plays, he played six–with one, two, one, two, one, and one yards to go[b]. You could pretty much guess from the down as distance if he be there or not. [/b]In the end, [b]it was so vanilla he was in for 73% of all plays,[/b] just behind his 73.2% of snaps in Week 13 (at Cleveland), his highest of the year.[/left][/size][/font][/left][/quote]

[I*Bleed*Purple]

[quote name='Jerseyraven52205527' timestamp='1326994820' post='958710']
And why hasn't our head coach taken over the offense????
[/quote]

I have an idea that no team in the league has thought of. Why don't we just let our talented 4th year QB call the plays. I mean, this was supposed to be the year that the training wheels came off. He managed quite well doing it in Pittsburgh. On second thought, nah.

[keebl3rs]

Can we just start sending Steve Bisciotti all this evidence we've compiled to get rid of Cam? Seriously, as much as I appreciate the positives Cam brought to our Offense with a rookie QB and RB back when he first got here.. he hasn't evolved our offense at ALL since then.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='BloodRaven' timestamp='1327016744' post='959288']
The guys at PFF can't help but mention the offensive gameplan when talking about Leach and how he is utilised.
[/quote]
It reminds me of last year when 95% of the time McGahee was rotated in, we ran the ball.

I'm sure the defense knows (as us Ravens fans do) every snap whether the Ravens will run or pass. Only once or twice a game does he change it up and oh look - one of those plays was a TD on the goal line. Thanks for the two plays a game, Cam, when you keep the defense guessing.

[ravensfan160]

If it wasn't for the lockout Cam would have been fired. Now we're probably stuck with him another season unless we get shutout or something.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

Great teams do not have to score a ton of points to win. They win a lot of games by holding their opposition to less than 20 points. When we held our opposition under twenty points, our record was 10-1. When the opposition scored 20 or more points against us, our record was 3-3. Great teams can win with solid defense and a few big plays on offense. New England is not a great team. When they held their opposition under 20 points, their record was 5-0. When their opposition scored 20 or more points, their record was 9-3. Scoring more than 20 points in this game will not assure us of victory but the Patriots did surrender 20 or more points 12 times this season compared to our 6 times. The true mark of a great team is not how many points they are capable of scoring but how many points their opponents typically score. That is why Green Bay and New Orleans are sitting at home this weekend. So what's the point? The point is this. I do not mind vanilla play selection provided the execution is so good that the defense can do nothing to stop it. I'm reminded of a SB between the Miami Dolphins and the Washington Redskins where the key play was "Hey diddle diddle! John Riggins up the middle!!" Don Shula knew what was coming but couldn't stop the Redskins because of the excellent play execution by the Hogs & Riggo. Coach Lombardi's Green Bay Packers also perfected the Green Bay sweep years ago. As Red Auerbach used to say, "don't be fancy; just be good!" Coach Bill Parcells won a lot of games with his "ole school" three yards and a cloud of dust philosophy. It was not exciting to watch but it was very effective. Bill realized that most games are lost, not won. By forcing one's opponent into unforced errors as in tennis, he managed the games, dictated the tempo, controlled the clock and usually won the battle of field position. I would agree Cam Cameron's philosophy is "old school" but we are not going to change his philosophy. The most important thing is for all, not some, of the players to buy into it. The most encouraging things I took from the Houston game were zero turnovers and zero penalties. That is excellent execution and discipline. We also took AJ's and Arien's best shots and we still won. The most discouraging things I took from the game were 5 sacks of Joe and no sacks of Yeats. I believe that Baltimore has a better team than NE this year. Unfortunately, the best team does not always win. However, it remains to be seen whether we are a great team or not. If we are, we will beat the Patriots on Sunday and don't be surprised if our tight ends --- Dixon, Pitta and Wilson --- play a big part. One of the easiest ways to rattle an opponent is to give them a taste of their own medicine. In the final analysis, it is not about winning; it is about surviving. This old school coach would have gone for the field goal on Sunday instead of going for the TD but that does not mean Coach Harbaugh's decision was wrong. With a quick snap and a QB sneak, I think Joe would have scored. Its time to quit second guessing the coaches until the final gun sounds and get behind them all the way. What Greg Cosell or other pundits may think about our players and coaching staff doesn't really matter. The fans have to believe in the team and the team has to believe in itself. This is just one more business trip on the way to the SB in Indy where Raymond Berry will present the Lombardi Trophy to the Ravens. Enjoy the game fellow Ravens fans and relish the moment!

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='keebl3rs' timestamp='1327028939' post='959532']
Can we just start sending Steve Bisciotti all this evidence we've compiled to get rid of Cam? Seriously, as much as I appreciate the positives Cam brought to our Offense with a rookie QB and RB back when he first got here.. he hasn't [b]evolved our offense[/b] at ALL since then.
[/quote]

I've often said on these boards that Cam's style is very good for developing young QBs. Then, he stalls. He just does not evolve or adjust (not in his overall scheme nor in-game when necessary). He wants control and refuses to relinquish it. Where is all this freedom that we were promised Joe would have this season? Didn't Ozzie and Co come out and feed us all the bull about "this being Joe's offense" this season? Well guess what guys, you underestimated Cam's need for control. Fix it.

[Raven Hammer]

[quote name='frozen joe flacco fan' timestamp='1327034075' post='959639']
Great teams do not have to score a ton of points to win. They win a lot of games by holding their opposition to less than 20 points. When we held our opposition under twenty points, our record was 10-1. When the opposition scored 20 or more points against us, our record was 3-3. Great teams can win with solid defense and a few big plays on offense. New England is not a great team. When they held their opposition under 20 points, their record was 5-0. When their opposition scored 20 or more points, their record was 9-3. Scoring more than 20 points in this game will not assure us of victory but the Patriots did surrender 20 or more points 12 times this season compared to our 6 times. The true mark of a great team is not how many points they are capable of scoring but how many points their opponents typically score. That is why Green Bay and New Orleans are sitting at home this weekend. So what's the point? The point is this. I do not mind vanilla play selection provided the execution is so good that the defense can do nothing to stop it. I'm reminded of a SB between the Miami Dolphins and the Washington Redskins where the key play was Hey diddle diddle! Riggins up the middle!! Don Shula knew what was coming but couldn't stop the Redskins because of the excellent play execution. Coach Lombardi's Green Bay Packers also perfected the Green Bay sweep years ago. As Red Auerbach used to say, "don't be fancy; just be good!" Coach Bill Parcells won a lot of games with his "ole school" three yards and a cloud of dust philosophy. It was not exciting to watch but it was very effective. Bill realized that most games are lost, not won. By forcing one's opponent into unforced errors as in tennis, he managed the games, dictated the tempo, controlled the clock and usually won the battle of field position. I would agree Cam Cameron's philosophy is "old school" but we are not going to change his philosophy. The most important thing is for all, not some, of the players to buy into it. The most encouraging things I took from the Houston game were zero turnovers and zero penalties. That is excellent execution and discipline. We also took AJ's and Arien's best shots and we still won. The most discouraging things I took from the game were 5 sacks of Joe and no sacks of Yeats. I believe that Baltimore has a better team than NE this year. Unfortunately, the best team does not always win. However, it remains to be seen whether we are a great team or not. If we are, we will beat the Patriots on Sunday and don't be surprised if our tight ends --- Dixon, Pitta and Wilson --- play a big part. One of the easiest ways to rattle an opponent is to give them a taste of their own medicine. In the final analysis, it is not about winning; it is about surviving. This old school coach would have gone for the field goal on Sunday instead of going for the TD but that does not mean Coach Harbaugh's decision was wrong. With a quick snap and a QB sneak, I think Joe would have scored. Its time to quit second guessing the coaches until the final gun sounds and get behind them all the way. What Greg Cosell or other pundits may think about our coaching staff doesn't really matter. The fans have to believe in the team and the team has to believe in itself. This is just one more business trip on the way to the SB in Indy where Raymond Berry will present the Lombardi Trophy to the Ravens. Enjoy the game Ravens fans and relish the moment!
[/quote]

Very well asid

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1327056940' post='959726']

I've often said on these boards that Cam's style is very good for developing young QBs. Then, he stalls. He just does not evolve or adjust (not in his overall scheme nor in-game when necessary). He wants control and refuses to relinquish it. Where is all this freedom that we were promised Joe would have this season? Didn't Ozzie and Co come out and feed us all the bull about "this being Joe's offense" this season? Well guess what guys, you underestimated Cam's need for control. Fix it.
[/quote]

I actually agree haha. Cam's offense is very good for young QBs and reviving careers. Hell, he even got Gus Frerotte in the Pro Bowl. But there is sort of a glass ceiling to the offense. In order to have these top 5 offenses, we have to evolve, but its not going to happen overnight. Since I can't read Flacco's mind and I'm not in the front office or a scout, I can't predict if Joe is indeed ready for these changes. In terms of control, the elite QBs take control of the offense, its not just handed to them. Let our coaches do their jobs.

I believe the Ravens truly would have fired Cam this season if they didn't believe in him. With all of our young players, they are essentially learning a new offense anyway, so its a moot point. Every team in the NFL has strengths and weaknesses, but just appreciate that we have a chance to win the SB with one of the most balanced teams in the league.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='Sandbox' timestamp='1327009633' post='959122']
And I agree, but IMO yards gained is still a pretty good indicator. A better indicator would be looking at both points and yards, so no I don't think NE has the worst defense in the NFL. I think a more accurate ranking would be around 20-22nd, but again in most cases yardage does present a fairly good representation of teams in the NFL.[list]
[*]2000 Points: 20.7, Yards: 319.4
[*]2011 Points: 22.2, Yards: 346.8
[/list]
[/quote]

You got me there in terms of yardage. I argued that besides NE and NO, the rest of the NFL stayed the same and its close to 340 yards a game. In terms of points however, if you remove them two, its about 21 points a game. The game has change a bit, but a few teams have skewed the average for the entire NFL really.

Your rating for NE's defense was almost spot on according to Football Outsiders. They had them at 18.

But even still with the current scoring standards, in 2000, we were at league average with by far the best defense and special teams. in 2011, we're over a point above average with a top defense but one of the worse special team units in the NFL. I would predict that the 2000 offense would be putting up around 17 points a game if they played on this team in 2011 if I compared the efficiency ratings from other teams who has the same efficiency rating we had back in 2000. Think 2011 Broncos, Vikings, Browns, and Bucs, yuck. Even if you aren't interested in those metrics, [url="http://footballoutsiders.com/"]Football Outsiders is a good site anyway[/url]. Just saying things can be a lot worse.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1327056940' post='959726']

[b]I've often said on these boards that Cam's style is very good for developing young QBs[/b]. Then, he stalls. He just does not evolve or adjust (not in his overall scheme nor in-game when necessary). He wants control and refuses to relinquish it. Where is all this freedom that we were promised Joe would have this season? Didn't Ozzie and Co come out and feed us all the bull about "this being Joe's offense" this season? Well guess what guys, you underestimated Cam's need for control. Fix it.
[/quote]

Yep, I agree, and I'd never say Cam hasn't had a hand in developing great young quarterbacks. Unfortunately, he doesn't know what to do with them when they have evolved. And he obviously didn't spend enough time learning from Don Coryell to understand the strengths and weaknesses of his system, why it works when it does and why it fails when it does.

[PeRK82]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326988344' post='958491']
As if we didn't already know these things, but now even outsiders are taking notice of our deficincies.
Here is what Cosell said about our offense:


[color=#000000]RT via Ross Tucker: [/color]

[color=#000000]Greg Cosell on Ravens: Never seen a group of WR so unable to beat man coverage" "Their O is so incredibly predictable." "Watching their tape is like watching the 1960's. 1 WR to each side, isolation routes.[b] No bunch sets,[/b] rub routes"[/color]
[/quote]

Anyone remember in the preseason and beginning of the season we were actually running Bunch sets, 4 wrers close together and being very very effective. If it aint broke dont fix it, but instead if its broke keep doing it,maybe something will happen different. That my friends is the definition of Insanity.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='PeRK82' timestamp='1327088167' post='960249']

Anyone remember in the preseason and beginning of the season we were actually running Bunch sets, 4 wrers close together and being very very effective. If it aint broke dont fix it, but instead if its broke keep doing it,maybe something will happen different. That my friends is the definition of Insanity.
[/quote]

I'm really hoping Cam is the "ultimate Mad Hatter" and pulls out a whole bunch of stuff nobody's seen before vs. the Patriots. But then I remember that "audibles are overrated" and my hopes get somewhat dashed.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Token' timestamp='1326993400' post='958670']

To be fair to Cam, your oline has to be blocking well to go 4 & 5 wide. I know he doesn't do it often (if at all?), but it wouldn't have made sense against the Texans when the pressure was right in Joe's face basically right after the ball is snapped. Now if the oline performs up to standards on Sunday, there would be no reason to not go 4 or 5 wide and attack that weak secondary.
[/quote]

You have a good point, but the counter to that would be to run a lot of 5 WR sets with short routes, get the ball out of Joe's hands quickly, force the defense to stay back. Yes Wade Philips likes to blitz, but unlike say Rex Ryan, he knows when to stop blitzing and drop into coverage. Heck, even Rex and LeBeau figured out that's how you stop Tom Brady, by NOT constantly pressuring him but making him think. Cam could have made Wade Philips think "If I send all the blitzers, will my guys get burned in coverage?" Instead, three wide receivers were on the field a total of 8 snaps. Wade new all Cam was going to do was sent 2 wideouts and a tight end out there most of the time. JJ was all over Torrey, so now you're down to Q, a tight end, and Lee on 8 plays. Not to difficult to defend when your defense is getting the kind of pressure it got on Joe.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1327090796' post='960322']

You have a good point, but the counter to that would be to run a lot of 5 WR sets with short routes, get the ball out of Joe's hands quickly, force the defense to stay back. Yes Wade Philips likes to blitz, but unlike say Rex Ryan, he knows when to stop blitzing and drop into coverage. Heck, even Rex and LeBeau figured out that's how you stop Tom Brady, by NOT constantly pressuring him but making him think. Cam could have made Wade Philips think "If I send all the blitzers, will my guys get burned in coverage?" Instead, three wide receivers were on the field a total of 8 snaps. Wade new all Cam was going to do was sent 2 wideouts and a tight end out there most of the time. JJ was all over Torrey, so now you're down to Q, a tight end, and Lee on 8 plays. Not to difficult to defend when your defense is getting the kind of pressure it got on Joe.
[/quote]

You get 5 sacks on a 4 man rush and you could have the entire spanish armada playing receiver it would not matter.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1327090151' post='960295']

I'm really hoping Cam is the "ultimate Mad Hatter" and pulls out a whole bunch of stuff nobody's seen before vs. the Patriots.  But then I remember that "audibles are overrated" and my hopes get somewhat dashed.
[/quote]
Muaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!

[img]http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad25/brmacdon/hatter2-1.jpg[/img]

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1327091448' post='960341']

You get 5 sacks on a 4 man rush and you could have the entire spanish armada playing receiver it would not matter.
[/quote]

I still think shorter routes and completing them would have forced the Texans to back off the pressure a bit. Who knows though? But our offensive line [i]was[/i] playing like they'd all just taken a Xanex or something.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1327092704' post='960380']

I still think shorter routes and completing them would have forced the Texans to back off the pressure a bit. Who knows though? But our offensive line [i]was[/i] playing like they'd all just taken a Xanex or something.
[/quote]

It's tough.

When you have a player like Ray Rice, who's a threat catching the pass out of the backfield, and you're a running team, you should basically plan for linebackers to be sitting right on the short passes. That's why the slant comes from a West coast offense, because it does not rely on the run.

[Guest RBates]

BOOOOOO to the dry humor on this thread. Cam Cameron's offense is vanilla. Harbaugh was more actively involved in this project in the off season, yet here we are again. What say you of our head coaches' inability to get things corrected, as he so colorfully put it.

[scrock]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326988344' post='958491']
As if we didn't already know these things, but now even outsiders are taking notice of our deficincies.
Here is what Cosell said about our offense:


[color=#000000]RT via Ross Tucker: [/color]

[color=#000000]Greg Cosell on Ravens: Never seen a group of WR so unable to beat man coverage" "Their O is so incredibly predictable." "Watching their tape is like watching the 1960's. 1 WR to each side, isolation routes. No bunch sets, rub routes"[/color]
[/quote]

this is why it drives me nuts when Flacco takes the heat, this team does not have the personnel or the right OC to make use of Flacco to his full potential that and Ray Rice...so they figure lets just run and hope we can play good enough defense

[The Raven]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1327158186' post='960976']
BOOOOOO to the dry humor on this thread. Cam Cameron's offense is vanilla. Harbaugh was more actively involved in this project in the off season, yet here we are again. What say you of our head coaches' inability to get things corrected, as he so colorfully put it.
[/quote]

Because Cam is a control freak. Harbs can't do everything.

[flynismo]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1327091593' post='960346']
Muaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!

[img]http://i918.photobucket.com/albums/ad25/brmacdon/hatter2-1.jpg[/img]
[/quote]


Is that Carrot Top?

[gotekiraven]

As much as I can't stand the national sports media for their unwarrented claims the Pats are a lock, I am glad that Cam is being ripped in the national spot light. It's vindacation that we are right. The problem isn't with Joe, it's CAM!!!!!!

[gotekiraven]

Lee Evans was a very solid WR in Buffalo, look what happened now that he's entered the Cam Cameron way back machine. Anquan's numbers have dropped off drastically also. The receivers aren't the problem, they were doing their jobs very well on their former teams (that is the reason we got them in the first place). It's when they started playing for the "blast from the past" known as the Cam Cameron offense, their production dropped off very noticeably.