Greg Cosell Slams Ravens Recievers And Cam Cameron

[flynismo]

[quote name='baltravens' timestamp='1326991356' post='958607']
If our offense was so predictable, there is no way on God's green earth that we would have finished 12-4 for the season.[/quote]


after the Texans game last week, Brian Cushing said the same things about our offense -- it is simplistic and predictable.

When you look at the talent we have on this offense, dont you think we could have done just a wee bit better all season long?

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326997944' post='958792']
after the Texans game last week, Brian Cushing said the same things about our offense -- it is simplistic and predictable.

When you look at the talent we have on this offense, dont you think we could have done just a wee bit better all season long?
[/quote]

I get the feeling as an organization we just want to win our way. We want to be too big, too fast and too strong and win in a straightforward way. There's pros and cons to this thinking, but I think this might be a top down approach.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Moderator 2' timestamp='1326996857' post='958762']
Who cares what this guy has to say? It's his opinion, everyone has one
[/quote]

It's worth taking note of, because other well-respected analysts have been saying the same for two years now.

[flynismo]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1326998182' post='958798']
We want to be too big, too fast and too strong and win in a straightforward way.
[/quote]

I'm really not sure what you mean by that..

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326998506' post='958808']

I'm really not sure what you mean by that..
[/quote]

I dunno if I'm right, but I think he means that on offense, we try to win by using our athletic abilities to exploit mixmatches moreso than trying to outsmart the opposing defenses.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Moderator 2' timestamp='1326996857' post='958762']
Who cares what this guy has to say? It's his opinion, everyone has one
[/quote]

Well, I'm sure the FO must be looking for answers as to why such a talent laden offense underperforms and is so inconsistent. I don't expect them to listen to the fans or talking heads, but when everyone is saying the same things -- including our opponents -- well, something has to change, and this may be a good place to start. Offensively, we are not getting the results we expected.

[baltravens]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326997944' post='958792']
after the Texans game last week, Brian Cushing said the same things about our offense -- it is simplistic and predictable.

When you look at the talent we have on this offense, dont you think we could have done just a wee bit better all season long?
[/quote]
In our victory last week, I first noticed breakdowns by our OL. Sure, with our talent we could have played better offensively, but IMO Cam is not the long-term answer at offensive coordinator. [b]I am so awaiting the AFC Championship, [/b]to see if we have what it takes offensively to be Super Bowl champions this year.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326998506' post='958808']

I'm really not sure what you mean by that..
[/quote]

We want to win by being unstoppable as opposed to unpredictable. Calvin Johnson style.

EDIT: what suggs package said.
Like the '07 chargers did. Guys were just huge and fast.

[CorvusCorax]

Have we ever for the past decade? This is Baltimore football. We make Offense look hard!

(null)

[flynismo]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1326998819' post='958822']

We want to win by being unstoppable as opposed to unpredictable. Calvin Johnson style.

EDIT: what suggs package said.
Like the '07 chargers did. Guys were just huge and fast.
[/quote]


Gotcha.

I can agree that on both sides of the ball, not just offense, we rely on winning our matchups more than clever scheming. And the comments that have been made by Harbs in particular, but others as well (Ed, looking at you), suggest that what you are saying is true.

[izvoodoo]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326999150' post='958831']


Gotcha.

I can agree that on both sides of the ball, not just offense, we rely on winning our matchups more than clever scheming. And the comments that have been made by Harbs in particular, but others as well (Ed, looking at you), suggest that what you are saying is true.
[/quote]

You have to win that way on defense I think, you just need better football players.

But I do contest that if we had San Diego's receivers we wouldn't have these discussions because we'd just ball on people.

[ravensfan2430]

[quote name='Moderator 2' timestamp='1326996857' post='958762']
Who cares what this guy has to say? It's his opinion, everyone has one
[/quote]
i've got 2

[Sandbox]

[quote name='baltravens' timestamp='1326997444' post='958775']
one that runs the ball well and complements that rushing attack with a passing game.
[/quote]
And I have no problem with that either, I don't think we need the same passing attack the Packers or Patriots use. The problem I and many others see, is that variation in playcalling is nonexistent. Just look at how many 9 routes Cam has had Boldin run, this should go without saying but he's just not that type of receiver. You have to give defenses looks they're not expecting, why do you think teams like the Chargers shut us down? They're not some all-world defense.
[quote name='baltravens' timestamp='1326997444' post='958775']
Take a look at our offense in 2000. That could be characterized as vanilla, too, but Trent Dilfer and Jamal Lewis won a Super Bowl.
[/quote]
Yes they did and funnily enough even with all the offensive weapons this team has now, the offense ranks in the same place as it did in 2000. And this has been repeated ad nauseum but this defense is nowhere near what it was in 2000.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='izvoodoo' timestamp='1326993728' post='958683']

Say it with me:
Time of possession.

The big thing is scoring though. Need touchdowns not field goals.
[/quote]
Yeah, we need to put together drives like the one against SF that led to our TD. Chunks of yards, while slowly but surely moving down the field and finishing with 7.

[Runnin Raven]

I'm guessing very few defenses fear our receivers.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='Sandbox' timestamp='1327001260' post='958875']
And I have no problem with that either, I don't think we need the same passing attack the Packers or Patriots use. The problem I and many others see, is that variation in playcalling is nonexistent. Just look at how many 9 routes Cam has had Boldin run, this should go without saying but he's just not that type of receiver. You have to give defenses looks they're not expecting, why do you think teams like the Chargers shut us down? They're not some all-world defense.

Yes they did and funnily enough even with all the offensive weapons this team has now, the offense ranks in the same place as it did in 2000. And this has been repeated ad nauseum but this defense is nowhere near what it was in 2000.
[/quote]

Just want to point out that the 2000 offense was far worse than our current offense and its not even close. Believe it or not, our offense is actually slightly above average this year in both passing and running the ball.

[PurpleDrink]

long as we keep winning Mr. Cameron will be staying in baltmore, I call it the gift and the curse...

[Sandbox]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1327001975' post='958902']

Just want to point out that the 2000 offense was far worse than our current offense and its not even close. Believe it or not, our offense is actually slightly above average this year in both passing and running the ball.
[/quote]
Not really, the 2000 ravens were ranked 16th in yards with 5014, the 2011 Ravens are ranked 15th with 5419. A difference of 400 yards. So yeah it's pretty close.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326997944' post='958792']
after the Texans game last week, Brian Cushing said the same things about our offense -- it is simplistic and predictable.

When you look at the talent we have on this offense, dont you think we could have done just a wee bit better all season long?
[/quote]
. Us expected to do good with the players we have may be to predictable. That must be why Cam does what he does.

[T3hRaven]

I gave Cosell a follow on Twitter after listening to that because he seems to know his stuff. That was the most honest, poignant, and even though it was so short the most in depth analysis of the crap that Cam Cameron calls an offense that I've ever heard from any of the media. I don't see how talking about basic route concepts and why the Ravens offense doesn't work is never talked about by ESPN or NFLN.

I'm biased though. We could win 3 Super Bowls back to back with the moron and I'd still be calling for his firing, simply because you know after all the years he's been in the league that his offense is not going to evolve.

[Sandbox]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1327003214' post='958933']
. Us expected to do good with the players we have may be to predictable. That must be why Cam does what he does.
[/quote]
Ha, that might be it. We don't want Boldin running the slant or curl, they'll expect that. Lets send him deep every play.

From the presser today: "Cam cameron said criticism goes with the territory said he's fine with people calling offense predictable as long as ravens keep winning"
The problem is you're winning by the skin of your teeth, putting up 23 points probably isn't going to cut it Sunday.

[ravens rule]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1326998202' post='958799']

It's worth taking note of, because other well-respected analysts have been saying the same for two years now.
[/quote]
Exactly when a lot of analysts and even Nfl players like Cushing say that the offense is predictable you have to think about it.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='Sandbox' timestamp='1327002774' post='958922']
Not really, the 2000 ravens were ranked 16th in yards with 5014, the 2011 Ravens are ranked 15th with 5419. A difference of 400 yards. So yeah it's pretty close.
[/quote]

400 yards is a lot more than you think, but anyway, total yardage hardly ever equates to a good offense or defense. You gotta look at yard per play. This year, we were around 5.2 and 2000, we were around 4.7, that's like a half a yard better per play. We had 1058 plays from scrimmage this year, and if we were only outputting 4.7 yards per play, we'd be around 4900 or so. That's like losing 10% of our offense. That's like losing Ed Dickson for the year and not replacing him with anyone.

In terms of points, back in 2000, we average 20.8, this year 23.8.

Also, just to point out, that defense was much better than this current one. It gave us good field position. We also had the best special teams in the NFL that year. The best defense and special teams and you can only score 20 points?

If you care for Football Outsiders metrics, our offense is ranked 12th this year, right behind Atlanta and Dallas. in 2000, we were 25th.

[Sandbox]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1327004581' post='958975']
400 yards is a lot more than you think, but anyway, total yardage hardly ever equates to a good offense or defense.
[/quote]
I disagree, rule changes and better quarterbacks have made 400 yards mean less then it did in 2000. All offenses have improved since that time, that's why the two raven teams are right alongside eachother in their middle of the pack rankings. I do think yardage is a good measurement, do you disagree with the current rankings of defense and offense with the Steelers leading in D and the Saints leading in O?
[quote]
In terms of points, back in 2000, we average 20.8, this year 23.8.
[/quote]
And again times have changed, 3 points means less now than it did in 2000.

[Suggs Package]

[quote name='Sandbox' timestamp='1327006670' post='959031']
I disagree, rule changes and better quarterbacks have made 400 yards mean less then it did in 2000. All offenses have improved since that time, that's why the two raven teams are right alongside eachother in their middle of the pack rankings. I do think yardage is a good measurement, do you disagree with the current rankings of defense and offense with the Steelers leading in D and the Saints leading in O?

And again times have changed, 3 points means less now than it did in 2000.
[/quote]

Also, do you think New England has the 2nd worse defense in the NFL because they give up the second most yards? They allow 21 points a game which is good for 15th in the league. Teams try to play catch up because New England is blowing them out like crazy, hence the yards they give up. Some teams have better defensive yardage numbers because they run the ball a lot, limiting possession for the other team. Things like total yardage are relational to situational football, coming from behind, running out the clock, etc.

Also, would you say Phily has the 4th best offense in the league? They barely scored more points than we did.

I'm just saying yards without context can be misleading. Also, in terms of this offensive explosion that's always talked about, only NE and NO are gaining yards like crazy. The rest of the league hasn't changed much since 2000. Back then, there were three teams scoring over 30 points a game, and now in 2011, there's 3 teams scoring more than 30 points a game.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1326989856' post='958543']
Shoot, Jamarcus Russell is available. That dude.....actually, I got nothing here.
[/quote]

....was the best thing coming out of college!

[Sandbox]

[quote name='Suggs Package' timestamp='1327008483' post='959095']
I'm just saying yards without context can be misleading.
[/quote]
And I agree, but IMO yards gained is still a pretty good indicator. A better indicator would be looking at both points and yards, so no I don't think NE has the worst defense in the NFL. I think a more accurate ranking would be around 20-22nd, but again in most cases yardage does present a fairly good representation of teams in the NFL.
[quote]
The rest of the league hasn't changed much since 2000.
[/quote][list]
[*]2000 Points: 20.7, Yards: 319.4
[*]2011 Points: 22.2, Yards: 346.8
[/list]

[ratedr]

Jaws was on 105.7 the fan, and basically said the same thing. He said he was prompted to review the game after Ed Reed's comments, and that after doing so, of Flacco's 27 dropbacks, he gave him 24 checks (2 were bad decisions, 1 was an inaccurate throw).

He said that the receivers had zero separation, so Flacco was forced to throw into tight windows all day. He also complemented his TD throw to Boldin, saying very few QBs cab make that throw. He concluded by saying that they guy is a terrific QB, and that people should lay off.

It was nice commentary from someone who actually reviewed the game.

[reediddy]

[quote name='ratedr' timestamp='1327011815' post='959181']
Jaws was on 105.7 the fan, and basically said the same thing. He said he was prompted to review the game after Ed Reed's comments, and that after doing so, of Flacco's 27 dropbacks, he gave him 24 checks (2 were bad decisions, 1 was an inaccurate throw).

He said that the receivers had zero separation, so Flacco was forced to throw into tight windows all day. He also complemented his TD throw to Boldin, saying very few QBs cab make that throw. He concluded by saying that they guy is a terrific QB, and that people should lay off.

It was nice commentary from someone who actually reviewed the game.
[/quote]

The negativity is slowly but surely being redirected to Cam, where it should be. I'm glad Flacco is being relieved of it, anyone who really watches knows he has been playing very well. People all too often get caught up with the talking heads that demean him based on comments taken out of context, or purely looking at the numbers and not seeing how they developed. That's where the problem lies

[raybaby]

I've been saying this all season........... Cam is the worst thing about the Ravens............. And Joe gets the flack for it........ if we didn't have a QB with the throwing skill set that Joe has........ we wouldn't even be in the playoffs.