Where Does The Notion Come That Flacco Isn't Accurate Enough For The Wco?

[Ravenslifer]

I've been hearing a lot from people who don't think the WCO would be a good fit here that Flacco "isn't accurate enough" to run the system. I don't get this at all. The WCO relies primarily on short and intermediate routes. In 2008 Flacco completed 79 percent of passes thrown behind the line of scrimmage, 64 percent of passes thrown 1-10 yards, and 52 percent of passes thrown 11-20 yards. In 2009 the numbers were 77 percent, 70 percent, and 54 percent. Last year 81 percent, 65 percent, 59 percent. This year - 74 percent, 64 percent, 49 percent, and you also have to factor in that this team has dropped at least twice as many catchable balls as they did in years previous.

Aaron Rodgers this year - 81 percent behind LOS, 74 percent 1-10 yards, 58 percent 10-20 yards

Tom Brady 2007 - 85 percent behind LOS, 76 percent 1-10 yards, 58 percent 11-20 yards.

Keep in mind these are the two best quarterbacks in the league and their best seasons ever in the league. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that if Flacco threw more short and intermediate routes, he'd get better than he is at them. I don't know where this myth that Flacco is no good at shorter routes comes from, but his numbers don't back it up.

And as for "reading the defense", that's not how the WCO works. The OC calls the plays and the QB throws the ball before the route is complete.

"Often, the quarterback has no time to think about the play and must act robotically, executing the play exactly as instructed by the offensive coordinator, who calls the plays for him."

The QB rarely reads the defense in the true West Coast Offense, although I'm sure elite QBs like Rodgers and Brady will read the defense and change plays on occasion. But I don't see any evidence to suggest Flacco couldn't play, and play well, in a West Coast System.

[flynismo]

Well, something we cant measure with stats (I agree statistics support your argument) is that I think it could also help expediate, or at least mitigate, the 'chemistry' issue with Flacco and the recievers. The routes would be very precise with little surprise on either end.

In theory, this would be a good idea for the team...it stresses ball security and ball control; which is exactly what we want when you have a defense like ours.

However, our offense is far too diverse and talented to pigeonhole into a strictly vertical offense or WCO. We have Torrey and Lee Evans, and a QB who throws one of the best deep balls in the game. We have Anquan and Pitta and Dickson who can dominate the slot and sidelines. We have Ray Rice who can work the flats.

I think our offensive identity should be that we can beat you any way we want to.

[redrum52]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1325692791' post='934575']
Well, something we cant measure with stats (I agree statistics support your argument) is that I think it could also help expediate, or at least mitigate, the 'chemistry' issue with Flacco and the recievers. The routes would be very precise with little surprise on either end.

In theory, this would be a good idea for the team...it stresses ball security and ball control; which is exactly what we want when you have a defense like ours.

However, our offense is far too diverse and talented to pigeonhole into a strictly vertical offense or WCO. We have Torrey and Lee Evans, and a QB who throws one of the best deep balls in the game. We have Anquan and Pitta and Dickson who can dominate the slot and sidelines. We have Ray Rice who can work the flats.

I think our offensive identity should be that we can beat you any way we want to.
[/quote]

Second that...

[Alexir]

Someone is obsessed with stats! lol

WCO involves lots of slants, wheel routes, post routes and come back routes (which he is good at). His accuracy is too inconsistent. A surgeon like Drew Brees or Brady could excel in this but Joe can't consistently get the ball on target.

I recall against the Colts (?) this year that he targeted LaQuan on a slant route and he threw it 3 feet over his head. Slants are suppose to be between the hips and nips, where the numbers are. Heck most passes should be there. How many times have you honestly seen Flacco make amazing passes in those short-intermediate routes and how many times were those stats padded by check downs to Ray rice or Leach or tight end screen passes?

[H8R]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1325694421' post='934619']
Someone is obsessed with stats! lol

WCO involves lots of slants, wheel routes, post routes and come back routes (which he is good at). His accuracy is too inconsistent. A surgeon like Drew Brees or Brady could excel in this but Joe can't consistently get the ball on target.

I recall against the Colts (?) this year that he targeted LaQuan on a slant route and he threw it 3 feet over his head. Slants are suppose to be between the hips and nips, where the numbers are. Heck most passes should be there. How many times have you honestly seen Flacco make amazing passes in those short-intermediate routes and how many times were those stats padded by check downs to Ray rice or Leach or tight end screen passes?
[/quote]

What are you going to do if Joe wins a Super Bowl? First you say its the WCO..which it's not exactly.... then you describe the traits of the WCO.... Then you discredit what Joe has done because he pads his stats with short yardage attempts..? All while calling it WCO, so... Which one is it... ? You're talking in circles...

WCO, moves both laterally and vertically... It was designed out of necesity. for lack of skill/speed.

Coryell is designed with faster personell, strong armed QB but it tends to not be as consistent or accurate.
You generally need 2 speed receivers...we've never had that until now... KIND OF...

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1325692791' post='934575']
Well, something we cant measure with stats (I agree statistics support your argument) is that I think it could also help expediate, or at least mitigate, the 'chemistry' issue with Flacco and the recievers. The routes would be very precise with little surprise on either end.

In theory, this would be a good idea for the team...it stresses ball security and ball control; which is exactly what we want when you have a defense like ours.

However, [u][b]our offense is far too diverse and talented to pigeonhole into a strictly vertical offense or WCO[/b][/u]. We have Torrey and Lee Evans, and a QB who throws one of the best deep balls in the game. We have Anquan and Pitta and Dickson who can dominate the slot and sidelines. We have Ray Rice who can work the flats.

I think our offensive identity should be that we can beat you any way we want to.
[/quote]

^ that right there!!

~Mili

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1325694421' post='934619']
Someone is obsessed with stats! lol

WCO involves lots of slants, wheel routes, post routes and come back routes (which he is good at). His accuracy is too inconsistent. A surgeon like Drew Brees or Brady could excel in this but Joe can't consistently get the ball on target.

I recall against the Colts (?) this year that he targeted LaQuan on a slant route and he threw it 3 feet over his head. Slants are suppose to be between the hips and nips, where the numbers are. Heck most passes should be there. [b]How many times have you honestly seen Flacco make amazing passes in those short-intermediate routes and how many times were those stats padded by check downs to Ray rice or Leach or tight end screen passes?[/b]
[/quote]

Many. Many times I've seen Flacco make nice short or intermediate throws. Sometimes he overthrows them or misses, like EVERY OTHER QB. Oh, and of course no other QB checks down or throws screen passes. Only Flacco "pads his stats." Dumbest myth ever.

[Sir Spooky]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' timestamp='1325697543' post='934688']

Many. Many times I've seen Flacco make nice short or intermediate throws. Sometimes he overthrows them or misses, like EVERY OTHER QB. Oh, and of course no other QB checks down or throws screen passes. Only Flacco "pads his stats." Dumbest myth ever.
[/quote]
Lol if Joe pads his stats with short throws, then Drew Bress pads his stats with throws to Darren Sproles and Reggie Bush before him, but no one would dare say that. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img]

[flynismo]

[quote name='Sir Spooky' timestamp='1325704010' post='934845']
Lol if Joe pads his stats with short throws, then Drew Bress pads his stats with throws to Darren Sproles and Reggie Bush before him, but no one would dare say that. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img][/quote]

yep...the king of padding his stats would have been Kurt Warner. Remember that 1000 yard recieving year Marshall Faulk had??


But thats different...when Warner, Brees, Rivers, etc do it, it is called 'playing smart football' and 'using your weapons'.

Flacco does it and gets criticised for it.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1325705072' post='934860']


yep...the king of padding his stats would have been Kurt Warner. Remember that 1000 yard recieving year Marshall Faulk had??


But thats different...when Warner, Brees, Rivers, etc do it, it is called 'playing smart football' and 'using your weapons'.

Flacco does it and gets criticised for it.
[/quote]
Shoot, what's Matt Ryans average yards per throw compared to his average yards per catch? Id bet there's a DRASTIC difference there!

[Ravenslifer]

Well I guess my overall point is, whatever offensive system we run, I think it should emphasize more short and intermediate routes. Flacco throughout his career, including this season, has shown he's very accurate on those routes. And I agree with Fly that completing more short routes would give Flacco and his receivers more confidence in each other.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1325694421' post='934619']
Someone is obsessed with stats! lol

WCO involves lots of slants, wheel routes, post routes and come back routes (which he is good at). His accuracy is too inconsistent. A surgeon like Drew Brees or Brady could excel in this but Joe can't consistently get the ball on target.

I recall against the Colts (?) this year that he targeted LaQuan on a slant route and he threw it 3 feet over his head. Slants are suppose to be between the hips and nips, where the numbers are. Heck most passes should be there. How many times have you honestly seen Flacco make amazing passes in those short-intermediate routes and how many times were those stats padded by check downs to Ray rice or Leach or tight end screen passes?
[/quote]

Well this year, he's completed 64 percent of his passes thrown between 1-10 yards, where most slants are thrown. This year his accuracy between 10-20 yards, where most wheel routes are thrown, is down to about 50 percent, but like I said in the last two years it was close to 60 percent, so I'd chalk this year up as an anomaly given that Joe lost the two receivers on the team that specialized in those intermediate routes (Heap and Mason - Mason was a stud at the comeback route).

Obsessed with stats? I'm pretty sure eyes lie to people more than the numbers. Flacco has traditionally completed between 60-70 percent of his passes thrown between 1-20 yards. It was true his first three years in the league. So what does that mean, that all of a sudden the fact that he has done very well in the past completing these routes doesn't matter, because according to YOUR eyes he's not accurate at that distance?

[Guest RBates]

Please everyone!!!!! You are killing me with these bogus stats. In crunch time, will Flacco come through, that is all that matters. That is how he will be judged at the end of the day.

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1325706660' post='934880']
Well I guess my overall point is, whatever offensive system we run, I think it should emphasize more short and intermediate routes. Flacco throughout his career, including this season, has shown he's very accurate on those routes. And I agree with Fly that completing more short routes would give Flacco and his receivers more confidence in each other.
[/quote]


I agree one million percent that we need more short / quick passes -- particularly over the middle. We seem to play all or nothing...instead of being predictable when we line up to pass, let the defense try to figure out whether Torrey is running a hard slant or a 20 yard fly. Is Boldin going over the middle, or is he running a comeback on the sideline? Why not have Rice and Ricky both out there and let the defense guess who is going to run the ball and what direction -- or maybe we're not running it at all, maybe they are in for pass protection. Could go on and on...but everyone already knows about Cam's lack of creativity.

[flynismo]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325708314' post='934922']
Please everyone!!!!! You are killing me with these bogus stats. In crunch time, will Flacco come through, that is all that matters. That is how he will be judged at the end of the day.
[/quote]

Well, I certainly agree with you on that, but it's not really relevant to the convo...

[1/28/01]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325708314' post='934922']
Please everyone!!!!! You are killing me with these bogus stats. In crunch time, will Flacco come through, that is all that matters. That is how he will be judged at the end of the day.
[/quote]
This year, he's shown he can (didn't say "will" as that would constitute all the time, but he certainly can!). So, yeah, Im excited!

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1325708360' post='934924']

Well, I certainly agree with you on that, but it's not really relevant to the convo...
[/quote]
The convo is wack. Using stats to justify whether or not he can play in a west coast style offense....

Check down offense, is all i see us running right now. Stats are bogus, your running back has more receptions than any receiver. lol

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325708691' post='934933']
The convo is wack. Using stats to justify whether or not he can play in a west coast style offense....

Check down offense, is all i see us running right now. Stats are bogus, [b]your running back has more receptions than any receiver[/b]. lol
[/quote]

That just proves invalidity and inconsistency inherent in your argument. You claim stats don't matter, then use stats that say Joe has thrown more to Ray Rice than any other receiver to justify YOUR point. IF stats don't matter, who cares who has the most receptions?

Oh wait, it's more like "Stats matter when I try to make my point, but if they don't support my point then they don't matter." Gottcha.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1325709064' post='934947']

That just proves invalidity and inconsistency inherent in your argument. You claim stats don't matter, then use stats that say Joe has thrown more to Ray Rice than any other receiver to justify YOUR point. IF stats don't matter, who cares who has the most receptions?

Oh wait, it's more like "Stats matter when I try to make my point, but if they don't support my point then they don't matter." Gottcha.
[/quote]
Stats don't matter, but when your running back is your leading rusher and number one receiver, something is wrong.

Got me? I doubt it. RR is the total offense. Without him we are sunk. All this is obvious you don't need stats to tell you this.

Anyone with eyes can see if you stop RR you stop Baltimore. Flacco can not be relied on to win us a game this is what makes him average.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325709573' post='934957']

Stats don't matter, but when your running back is your leading rusher and number one receiver, something is wrong.

Got me? I doubt it. RR is the total offense. Without him we are sunk. All this is obvious you don't need stats to tell you this.

Anyone with eyes can see if you stop RR you stop Baltimore. Flacco can not be relied on to win us a game this is what makes him average.
[/quote]
AZ game, Pitt game 2 and Im sure a few others, but believe it or not, I am trying to get some work done.

[Ngata92NT]

While Flacco possesses sufficient accuracy to operate out of the West Coast offense, the fact is that the scheme wouldn't play to his strengths. Flacco's strengths are his size, arm strength, and accuracy on intermediate/deep throws. While Flacco has shown the ability to complete short, quick passes, the accuracy isn't always consistent. When you're running the WCO the passes need to be extremely accurate and quick, Flacco's huge stature contributes to a slow release which makes these passes problematic. If the ball doesn't come out quick enough, theres a good chance of a pick six.

Flacco's strengths actually work against him operating out of the WCO. Flacco can be mobile when the play breaks down and create huge plays downfield like Roethlisberger (ex. Anquan Boldin in Bengals game #1). Typically in the WCO it's a 3-step drop from under center and make 1 or 2 reads, if it's not there check it down. Flacco may be mobile, but his footwork isn't quick, he takes long, slow strides. Flacco's 3-step drop takes as much time as a 5-step drop for a QB like Vick or Rodgers. This substantial impacts his ability to make accurate throws in a WCO, the drop taking too long = passes not coming out on time. That combined with inexperienced receivers and disrupted accuracy (if drop takes too long, feet don't always get set properly and throws come out misfired) could be disastorous.

In addition the WCO would severly limit the running game, as WCO typically passes to set up the running game instead of the opposite.

I've always believed Flacco is a very intelligent QB with a cannon for an arm and great accuracy downfield. Lets use that to our advantage, put Flacco in shotgun on the majority of passing snaps and play to the strengths he possesses. When Flacco passes from under center use play-action and the running game to slow the pass rush and compensate for Flacco's release and dropback. This is basically the offense we've been using, and it's been effective. However, the plays themselves aren't always very good and that falls on Cameron. The problem isn't the system, it's how we're operating in that system. It's not all on Flacco, or the receivers, or the O-Line, or Cam. But it's a combination of all these things which need to improve to have an elite offense.

[Alexir]

Flacco was amazing when he picked Steelers D apart in the 2 minute warning! But Like I've said, flashes of Brilliance with a lot of head scratching moments to endure as well. Needs to show consistency!

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1325709684' post='934962']
AZ game, Pitt game 2 and Im sure a few others, but believe it or not, I am trying to get some work done.
[/quote]
Is that the same Arizona game where his fumble helped contribute to us being down?

[H8R]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1325709684' post='934962']

AZ game, Pitt game 2 and Im sure a few others, but believe it or not, I am trying to get some work done.
[/quote]


I really wish guys would make it harder to crush their "argument" ... It's really too easy lately. I mean, the contradiction can even be had in their own argument. LOL

[Alexir]

[quote name='Ngata92NT' timestamp='1325709817' post='934964']
While Flacco possesses sufficient accuracy to operate out of the West Coast offense, the fact is that the scheme wouldn't play to his strengths. Flacco's strengths are his size, arm strength, and accuracy on intermediate/deep throws. While Flacco has shown the ability to complete short, quick passes, the accuracy isn't always consistent. When you're running the WCO the passes need to be extremely accurate and quick, Flacco's huge stature contributes to a slow release which makes these passes problematic. If the ball doesn't come out quick enough, theres a good chance of a pick six.

Flacco's strengths actually work against him operating out of the WCO. Flacco can be mobile when the play breaks down and create huge plays downfield like Roethlisberger (ex. Anquan Boldin in Bengals game #1). Typically in the WCO it's a 3-step drop from under center and make 1 or 2 reads, if it's not there check it down. Flacco may be mobile, but his footwork isn't quick, he takes long, slow strides. Flacco's 3-step drop takes as much time as a 5-step drop for a QB like Vick or Rodgers. This substantial impacts his ability to make accurate throws in a WCO, the drop taking too long = passes not coming out on time. That combined with inexperienced receivers and disrupted accuracy (if drop takes too long, feet don't always get set properly and throws come out misfired) could be disastorous.

In addition the WCO would severly limit the running game, as WCO typically passes to set up the running game instead of the opposite.

I've always believed Flacco is a very intelligent QB with a cannon for an arm and great accuracy downfield. Lets use that to our advantage, put Flacco in shotgun on the majority of passing snaps and play to the strengths he possesses. When Flacco passes from under center use play-action and the running game to slow the pass rush and compensate for Flacco's release and dropback. This is basically the offense we've been using, and it's been effective. However, the plays themselves aren't always very good and that falls on Cameron. The problem isn't the system, it's how we're operating in that system. It's not all on Flacco, or the receivers, or the O-Line, or Cam. But it's a combination of all these things which need to improve to have an elite offense.
[/quote]
[img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/plus-un2.gif[/img] [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/plus-un2.gif[/img] [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/plus-un2.gif[/img] [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/plus-un2.gif[/img]

[1/28/01]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325709929' post='934970']

Is that the same Arizona game where his fumble helped contribute to us being down?
[/quote]
I know...crazy how one fumble can make you down 21 points. Come on, RBates, you can do better than that!

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1325710111' post='934975']
I know...crazy how one fumble can make you down 21 points. Come on, RBates, you can do better than that!
[/quote]


didnt he say "help contribute" not sole cause lol

[1/28/01]

[quote name='atlravensfan' timestamp='1325710241' post='934980']



didnt he say "help contribute" not sole cause lol
[/quote]
Hilarious...semantics here we come. Okay, so the guy fumbles and let's say that was a direct result to 7 points. So, we're down 14 and Flacco leads the comeback charge and that's not a positive to be tacked onto his cap as a great come from behind win?!?!

[atlravensfan]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1325710387' post='934983']
Hilarious...semantics here we come. Okay, so the guy fumbles and let's say that was a direct result to 7 points. So, we're down 14 and Flacco leads the comeback charge and that's not a positive to be tacked onto his cap as a great come from behind win?!?!
[/quote]

oh i agree with what you said but flacco supporters as well as haters on these threads do that. Instead of attacking the argument attack whats said.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1325710111' post='934975']
I know...crazy how one fumble can make you down 21 points. Come on, RBates, you can do better than that!
[/quote]
your right i can, it was a fumble and a pick. Wow now he has to come back. It is safe to say that alot of that was on him. The fumble went for 6 didn't it?