Cleveland Columnist Writes: [You Took] Our Team, How About Giving Us Your Quarterback?

[ROH522155]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1324946389' post='923548']
His performances against the Steelers isn't what makes him bad in peoples eyes. It's his performances against the lesser teams and his up and down season.

But you are right, Joe contributed to our 4 seasons in a row playoff run just as everyone else on the team like you said....including Cam Cameron [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/268213.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Except Cam contributed in a negative way

[Alexir]

[quote name='ROH522155' timestamp='1324946467' post='923550']

Except Cam contributed in a negative way [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]
[/quote]
Hahaha, im just playing devil's advocate! People wanna give Joe Credit for his wins and playoff success but won't say anything about Cam Cameron.

I know Cam isn't the best offensive coordinator but still he got us there with the 3 headed monster in 2008, the screen passes in 2009, and even the throw happy offenses of 2010 and 2011.

Joe's problem is he doesn't have a Hue Jackson or Jim Zorn to work on being a better QB, he just has a Offensive Coordinator to criticize him and tell him what he did wrong.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1324946714' post='923554']
Hahaha, im just playing devil's advocate! People wanna give Joe Credit for his wins and playoff success but won't say anything about Cam Cameron.

I know Cam isn't the best offensive coordinator but still he got us there with the 3 headed monster in 2008, the screen passes in 2009, and even the throw happy offenses of 2010 and 2011.

Joe's problem is he doesn't have a Hue Jackson or Jim Zorn to work on being a better QB, he just has a Offensive Coordinator to criticize him and tell him what he did wrong.
[/quote]

Precisely. And it doesn't help that the offensive coordinator flat out refuses to take advice from anyone and does whatever he wants on offense.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1324946389' post='923548']
His performances against the Steelers isn't what makes him bad in peoples eyes. It's his performances against the lesser teams and his up and down season.

But you are right, Joe contributed to our 4 seasons in a row playoff run just as everyone else on the team like you said....including Cam Cameron [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/268213.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Yes, and a common debate is whether it's Flacco or Cam holding us back. All I know is, Cam went 1-15 as a head coach for a team that went 11-5 the next season, and he's a well-known control freak. But it's true that he has gone to the playoffs for four years as an o-coordinator. You can't deny that he has had some absurd games, where even the announcers are wondering what the hell he's doing. Obviously Flacco has too, but Flacco was a developmental guy coming into the league and it's his fourth season. Cam should know what he's doing by now, he has so many years of experience. If you're running Ray Rice 5 times because we were down by two scores with a half of football left, then you apparently can't control yourself.

As far as the Steelers, I'm not referring to his performances against them. I'm referring to the fact that we went 11-5 in 2008 and 12-4 last year, but had to play on the road in the playoffs both times. So the standards for Flacco are very high; people would complain if we went 13-3 and lost the division. It's virtually impossible to go a whole season without any bad or at least mediocre games.

[ROH522155]

I actually felt like Cam did a good job in 2008 and even 09 but he has gone downhill since.

[K-Dog]

[quote name='ROH522155' timestamp='1324949754' post='923607']
I actually felt like Cam did a good job in 2008 and even 09 but he has gone downhill since.
[/quote]

interesting since 2008 we went 11-5 (which we are poised to do this season )
and 2009 we went 9-7 which is worse than this season

I would be curious as to total points scored 08, 09 and 10 and thus far in 11

[flynismo]

[quote name='K-Dog' timestamp='1324952413' post='923650']

interesting since 2008 we went 11-5 (which we are poised to do this season )
and 2009 we went 9-7 which is worse than this season

I would be curious as to total points scored 08, 09 and 10 and thus far in 11
[/quote]


I'm guessing we scored most in 2009, followed closely by thiis season. May be wrong though

[flynismo]

[quote name='Alexir' timestamp='1324941387' post='923471']

I think we started turning the ship in 2006 with that defense. 2007 was a wash. That was just an injury plagued season.

Just because Joe is Better than Boller doesn't mean he is the reason we went to playoffs 4 years in a row. [b]Rice had a huge impact on getting us to the playoffs. and Lorenzo Neal and McClain the year before.[/b]
[/quote]

No more than the impact that Jamal had in the early and mid 2000s. Dude was our entire offense. I remember thinking all we need is a QB who won't screw things up for us and we'd be unstoppable. Since QB was what held us back, in a sense Flacco is a big reason for our success (just like McNair in 2006.). But for the record, no one guy has ever been the reason we have made the playoffs. Team game, etc etc

[True]

[quote name='K-Dog' timestamp='1324952413' post='923650']

interesting since 2008 we went 11-5 (which we are poised to do this season )
and 2009 we went 9-7 which is worse than this season

I would be curious as to total points scored 08, 09 and 10 and thus far in 11
[/quote]
2008 - 385

2009 - 391 (franchise record)

2010 - 357

2011 (so far) - 354

[ROH522155]

[quote name='K-Dog' timestamp='1324952413' post='923650']

interesting since 2008 we went 11-5 (which we are poised to do this season )
and 2009 we went 9-7 which is worse than this season

I would be curious as to total points scored 08, 09 and 10 and thus far in 11
[/quote]

Well Joe was a rookie in 08 and I thought we had a good offense considering that and in 09 we tied our single season points record with 391 I believe.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1324955162' post='923702']
2008 - 385

2009 - 391 (franchise record)

2010 - 357

2011 (so far) - 354
[/quote]

Interesting, so we've actually scored fewer points than we did in 09. Of course if I remember correctly in 09 we came out hot, scored a ton of points, and were in a lot of shootouts. Of course, we were really, really streaky that season, too. 3 wins, then 3 losses, then win-loss, win-loss, win-loss.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

It is pathetic that some fans are so critical of their own quarterback who has the Ravens to the playoffs 4 years in a row. Some of you Flacco detractors must be transplanted Pittsburgh or Eagle fans. By making the playoffs for the 4th consecutive time, Joe is the only starting QB in the NFL who will have played in the playoffs for the last four seasons. If that's not elite, Skip Bayless can eat my hat. As stated earlier, Joe is easily a Top 10 QB. With the elite group of receivers Drew Brees has (Meachem, Colston, Graham et al), an indoor stadium, a consistent O-line and a different style of offense, Joe could throw for 5,000 yards too.

With all due respect to Kurt Warner, the top five QBs are (in no certain order) Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning (when he was healthy) and Ben Rothlisberger. Joe Flacco is IMO in the second echelon, which includes Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Michael Vick and Matt Ryan. The third five is Cam Newton, Philip Rivers, Matthew Stafford, Mark Sanchez and Matt Schaub. Obviously, there are others who certainly deserve honorable mention, including but not limited to Tim Tebow, Andy Dalton and Josh Feeman. All this exercise really proves is that the NFL is blessed with a plethora of fine quarterbacks or that there is more parity in the NFL than ever before or that there has been a dilution of talent due to the league expansion from 12 to 32 teams. It is too bad we don't keep separate statistics for QBs and Kickers who play at least half of their games each year ubder ideal conditions in domes.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' timestamp='1324921708' post='923140']

[b]Actually, this is neither football nor a spelling bee. This is an internet forum, where people with no idea what they're talking about can spout off.[/b]

So you can't even avoid basic grammar mistakes, but Flacco should do everything right at the hardest position in sports? If I was GM I'd have you return kickoffs and tell no one to block. Then I'd keep my fingers crossed for a concussion so we wouldn't have to listen to you for a few hours.
[/quote]
I love when people assume. Just because we are on the internet, does not mean that we do not know the game at the NFL level. I will avoid telling you my extent of knowledge when it comes to pro football, as I find that it can be a little intimidating on these sites. However your assumptions make you look ridiculous, also pointing out mistakes in grammar don't really make you intelligent. In fact, It screams "I have no legitimate reason to belittle you, but you made a grammatical error so I guess I'll go with that". My point however still stands Flacco has looked average all season. Yes he is the best Qb we have ever had. He still looks average. Yes Flacco has won more games for us then any Qb we have ever had. He still looks average. Get the point?

[Ravenfanatic22]

Heck, You want flacco.. TAKE HIM, just give me your 1st round draft pick and u can keep falcons 1st round pick still.. i want me some RG3

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1324922022' post='923143']


That would be great. But the only mediocre QB we have is [b]Tyrod, [/b]and I dont think CLE is that stupid.

Funny how Thomas protects CLE mediocre QB and we see how that is working out for them. Yet our OL does not protect Flacco and yet [b]Flacco is still taking us to a first round bye[/b].
[/quote]
In defense of Tyrod, he has not played a game at this level. Jury is still out on him.

Flacco can lead us to a first round bye. Will he? Jury is still out on that.

Your post! Pure speculation counselor.

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1324922817' post='923168']

[b]Once again you post two things back to back that completely contradict each other.[/b] And were you even watching this team when we had a [b]Hall of Fame left tackle named Jonathan Odgen and a running back named Jamal Lewis put up 1500+ yards from scrimmage 3 years in a row and we still missed the playoffs? Still were one and done when we got in? Where is your explanation for that, if any quarterback could come in here and win? [/b] All I'm asking for is your explanation.
[/quote]
Not really seeing the contradiction. One would think that an average quarterback to a team that has a roster of below average guys would be a good trade for your all pro lineman.( Who knows) depending on what your teams needs are I guess.

I could just say[b] Trent Dilfer [/b]but somehow i don't think that would do it.
You do know he is regarded around the league as the worst QB to ever win a Superbowl right? What made him great? An all pro offensive line. Monster Run game, and a all WORLD DEFENSE.

Flacco is rarely asked to win a game with his arm. He is asked not to lose the game. That's why the game always is in Ray Rice hands. He needs his 20+ touches, because our offense is centered around him not Joe. Joe is at his best with 200 passing yards and one or two touchdowns. No turnovers. You would think that of those 200 passing yards he is hitting receivers or tight ends right? Half of that is going to RR as well. So as you can see the true offense is RR then everybody else. Check his stats if you don't believe me.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325000627' post='924018']
I love when people assume.  Just because we are on the internet, does not mean that we do not know the game at the NFL level.  [b]I will avoid telling you my extent of knowledge when it comes to pro football, [u]as I find that it can be a little intimidating on these sites.[/u][/b]  However your assumptions make you look ridiculous,  also pointing out mistakes in grammar don't really make you intelligent. In fact, It screams "I have no legitimate reason to belittle you, but you made a grammatical error so I guess I'll go with that". My point however still stands Flacco has looked average all season.  Yes he is the best Qb we have ever had.  He still looks average.  Yes Flacco has won more games for us then any Qb we have ever had.  He still looks average.  Get the point?
[/quote]
You almost made it out of there respectfully....

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325002203' post='924036']
Not really seeing the contradiction. One would think that an average quarterback to a team that has a roster of below average guys would be a good trade for your all pro lineman.( Who knows) depending on what your teams needs are I guess.

I could just say[b] Trent Dilfer [/b]but somehow i don't think that would do it.
You do know he is regarded around the league as the worst QB to ever win a Superbowl right? What made him great? An all pro offensive line. Monster Run game, and a all WORLD DEFENSE.

Flacco is rarely asked to win a game with his arm. He is asked not to lose the game. That's why the game always is in Ray Rice hands. He needs his 20+ touches, because our offense is centered around him not Joe. Joe is at his best with 200 passing yards and one or two touchdowns. No turnovers. You would think that of those 200 passing yards he is hitting receivers or tight ends right? Half of that is going to RR as well. So as you can see[b] the true offense is RR then everybody else[/b]. Check his stats if you don't believe me.
[/quote]

And I won't dispute that. But a lot of teams are built that way. Did you see what happened to Atlanta yesterday when they tried to make Matt Ryan throw 50 times? Or to the Jets when Sanchez had to throw 50 times? When the Patriots won their first two superbowls, Brady was throwing between 25-30 times a game. Roethlisberger averaged even less in the Steelers' Superbowl seasons. Of course our offense has to run through Ray Rice. Haven't you seen the number of posts where I've pointed out that not getting Rice involved costs us games? Ray Rice is our offensive tone setter, but that does not mean he's more or less critical to the success of the offense. The running game in general is critical to our success, whether it was Rice, McGahee, McClain, or Jamal Lewis running the ball. Joe Flacco is at his best off of play action, he runs it as well as almost anyone in the league, and yet we're not running the ball half the time to set up play action. That's on the offensive gameplanning.

And since when is it a crime for a quarterback to rely on a strong running game to help him win? Is your point that we need a guy who can come in here and throw 50+ times every game and win, because then unless you can think of a way to get a Brees, Rodgers, Manning, or Brady, forget it. Look at Cam Newton. Every time he's thrown the ball over 30 times except once, his team has lost. Does that mean his a bad, or even average quarterback? No, it simply means he's not the driving force of their offense yet, that the running game and a balanced attack is still critical to the team's success.

Again, aside from the four quarterbacks and their teams that I mentioned, that's true for every other team in the league. So why is Joe Flacco not being asked to win a game a slight on him? When he's asked to, he's answered the call many times (Arizona, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, the Jets both times when the running game did nothing, etc.). Does he still make mistakes, yes? But if you think that a running game is more important to winning than an even slightly-below average passing game, then I'd have to ask you what NFL you're watching.

The Jets came up short twice because in the end, you can't trust Sanchez. When he played decent in the regular season the Jets dominated. Now he's playing poorly, and the Jets are sunk. Why, considering how poor of a quarterback he's been? It's simply because having even a little production out of the passing game is more important in today's NFL than having the best running attack. The Ravens had a better defense and a better running back than Ray Rice for 6 years, and they still came up short. The Vikings had a stellar defense and the best running back in the game, and still fell flat until Favre got there. The Titans had a guy who ran like crazy, got over 2000 yards, and guess what happened? They missed the playoffs. Yet his rookie season, when he ran for only 800 yards, but the Titans had a solid quarterback in Collins, they went 13-3 and were the top seed. History, especially recent history, says that even if you have an elite running back, the quarterback is still the most important piece in determining whether you go to the playoffs or not. You can't dispute those facts. Ray Rice is by far a [b]better[/b] player than Flacco is, may be a better player than Flacco will ever be. But Flacco is more important to this team, because he is the quarterback. Whoever the quarterback is on this team would be the most important player on the team. The evidence of that is indisputable.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

Quite frankly, I don't get the point. Aren't you assuming that because your extent of football knowledge is so extensive that nobody else's opinion matters? Many pro football coaches can fall into the same trap. As you probably know, when it comes to decision making in any business, egos need to be left at the door. Coaching arrogancy has led the Ravens to many of their losses in the past --- of course, this is a problem that is not unique to the Ravens. As far as knowledge is concerned, people will never care how much you know until they know how much you care. I can remember two Ravens playoff games involving an outstanding QB named Steve McNair. In the first game, I sat in the stands thinking if we only had a good QB we could beat the Titans. We lost. In the second game, He was our QB and had us down on the goal line and threw a ill-advised pass to our opponent that day which cost us a chance to advance in the playoffs. Wasn't our record 13-3 that year and didn't we have a 1st round bye? I'm worried about Sunday's game in Cincy for a different reason than you are. You're obviously worried about Joe while I'm worried about his receiving corps. Joe only completed 11 passes on Sunday and 7 were to his three backs. The 134 passing yards was his lowest total for the season. We cannot do that against a Marvin Lewis coached team.

Since you are a student of the game, you know that a 200 yard passing day used to be the benchmark for a great QB. It still is for teams with a balanced running game and passing game. Unfortunately, there aren't many NFL teams left with great running backs like there used to be. If others on this team would step up and do their jobs and quit relying solely on Joe Flacco, we could win on Sunday and secure at least the #2 seed. Unfortunately, I don't expect that to happen and believe we will wind up as the #5 seed. If we don't win on Sunday, it doesn't mean that Andy Dalton is better than Joe Flacco. Incidentally, I hope I'm wrong about Sunday's outcome. "Whiners never win and winners never whine."

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325002203' post='924036']
Not really seeing the contradiction. One would think that an average quarterback to a team that has a roster of below average guys would be a good trade for your all pro lineman.( Who knows) depending on what your teams needs are I guess.

I could just say[b] Trent Dilfer [/b]but somehow i don't think that would do it.
You do know he is regarded around the league as the worst QB to ever win a Superbowl right? What made him great? An all pro offensive line. Monster Run game, and a all WORLD DEFENSE.

Flacco is rarely asked to win a game with his arm. He is asked not to lose the game. That's why the game always is in Ray Rice hands. He needs his 20+ touches, because our offense is centered around him not Joe. Joe is at his best with 200 passing yards and one or two touchdowns. No turnovers. You would think that of those 200 passing yards he is hitting receivers or tight ends right? Half of that is going to RR as well. So as you can see the true offense is RR then everybody else. Check his stats if you don't believe me.
[/quote]

You still have not answered my question BTW. How come if any quarterback could come in here and win, why didn't we win when we had a better defense, better o-line, and better running back?

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1325006008' post='924105']

You still have not answered my question BTW. How come if any quarterback could come in here and win, why didn't we win when we had a better defense, better o-line, and better running back?
[/quote]

Nope! He'll never answer that question, because that's the one that stumps the haters. If our team is so supremely stocked and talented that all we need is some average QB to bring us consecutive playoff appearances and a Super Bowl, then WHY DIDN'T WE DO IT BEFORE FLACCO GOT HERE?

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325000627' post='924018']
I love when people assume. Just because we are on the internet, does not mean that we do not know the game at the NFL level. I will avoid telling you my extent of knowledge when it comes to pro football, as I find that it can be a little intimidating on these sites. However your assumptions make you look ridiculous, also pointing out mistakes in grammar don't really make you intelligent. In fact, It screams "I have no legitimate reason to belittle you, but you made a grammatical error so I guess I'll go with that". My point however still stands Flacco has looked average all season. Yes he is the best Qb we have ever had. He still looks average. Yes Flacco has won more games for us then any Qb we have ever had. He still looks average. Get the point?
[/quote]

I point out your mistakes in grammar to show your incompetence. You expect Flacco to be much more than competent at the hardest position in sports, but you can't even avoid simple mistakes yourself.

I guarantee that I am far better equipped to analyze football than you are. That much is perfectly clear. You lack the ability to avoid reacting to every game and every play in a vacuum. Everything is Flacco's fault by default. That's the sign of a level 1, knows absolutely nothing fan. That's why after Flacco drove 92 yards for the win in Pittsburgh, you emphatically took back all of the negative things that you said about him. But now, a month and half later, we're right back to where we started. Just ridiculous.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='JohnJohnson' timestamp='1325009334' post='924172']

Nope! He'll never answer that question, because that's the one that stumps the haters. If our team is so supremely stocked and talented that all we need is some average QB to bring us consecutive playoff appearances and a Super Bowl, then WHY DIDN'T WE DO IT BEFORE FLACCO GOT HERE?
[/quote]

The thing I don't get, most of all, is that people forget Jamal Lewis was a better running back than Ray Rice is. Now I love Ray Rice, absolutely loved him since his days at Rugters (a lot of my family are Rutgers alums), but Jamal put up better numbers with Jeff Blake, Kyle Boller, Randall Cunningham (who was like 50 at the time lol), and Elvis Grbac under center, and guys like Travis Taylor and Kevin Johnson as our starting wideouts. Everybody KNEW Jamal was getting the ball, but nobody could stop him. The same cannot be said for Rice.

[JohnJohnson]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1325009932' post='924187']

The thing I don't get, most of all, is that people forget Jamal Lewis was a better running back than Ray Rice is. Now I love Ray Rice, absolutely loved him since his days at Rugters (a lot of my family are Rutgers alums), but Jamal put up better numbers with Jeff Blake, Kyle Boller, Randall Cunningham (who was like 50 at the time lol), and Elvis Grbac under center, and guys like Travis Taylor and Kevin Johnson as our starting wideouts. Everybody KNEW Jamal was getting the ball, but nobody could stop him. The same cannot be said for Rice.
[/quote]

Of course Jamal was better, you just couldn't stop him. Rice can slip through the holes, but he still needs a hole. He's not going to blast through you like Jamal did.

[Cville-Raven]

We need Bolton lol

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Cville-Raven' timestamp='1325016947' post='924344']
We need Bolton lol
[/quote]

Dude, no joke. Could you imagine him suddenly appearing on the field with his rendition of "I Can Go the Distance"? The Bengals would be so confused we'd score three times before they realized we were still playing, haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkbUr2rMSsk&feature=related

[edreedfromtheu]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1324928946' post='923266']
Im amazed you think Joe is worthy of two first round guys like those...Very contradictory if you ask me [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]
[/quote]

I'm not amazed you missed the point. If the Browns think Ravens fans have absolutely no basis for critiquing Flacco... then THEY must think he's pretty good. And if they think he would make a difference on their team, then pay up. Give something back.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1325022058' post='924435']
I'm not amazed you missed the point.  If the Browns think Ravens fans have absolutely no basis for critiquing Flacco... then THEY must think he's pretty good.  And if they think he would make a difference on their team, then pay up.  Give something back.
[/quote]
Yeah, I get that...nothing really to miss there. But it probably makes you feel better. So yeah....WAY over my head!!!

[Guest RBates]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1325002356' post='924038']
You almost made it out of there respectfully....
[/quote]
Why? I never mentioned it. It is ridiculous to talk as if everyone on here has been a lifetime blogger. I thought that was a respectful way of letting him know that he has made an error in judgment. Like all that assumptions, without any facts.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='RBates' timestamp='1325026509' post='924519']
Why? I never mentioned it. It is ridiculous to talk as if everyone on here has been a lifetime blogger. I thought that was a respectful way of letting him know that he has made an error in judgment. Like all that assumptions, without any facts.
[/quote]

That's not what he's talking about. What he's referring to is that you stated "I will avoid telling you my extent of football knowledge, as it can be intimidating on these sites." That's quite a bit of hubris if you ask me. Unless you were a former NFL player or coach yourself, or even a spectacular college player, I don't see how your football knowledge could be any greater than any other poster on this site. A lot of us have been watching football for decades, and many of us I'm sure have played football at some level or another. Being a lifetime blogger doesn't make you an expert on any sort of knowledge. What it sounds like your saying is "I'm right because I have a vast amount of knowledge and experience that you don't. If I were to display my full knowledge people will be intimidated." First off, why would we be intimidated? If we're talking to someone who knows a lot about the game and what it takes to play, we'd me more inclined to talk to you.

More importantly, you still have not answered my question though I feel like I've asked you 3-4 times. If Joe is an average to slightly-below average qb and we've gotten to the playoffs on the strength of our defense and running game, then how do you explain 2003 and 2005, with a better defense, a better running back, and a better offensive line, that we finished 10-3 in 03 and were bounced in the first round, and finished 6-10 in 2005 and missed the playoffs totally?