Who Will Our New Qb Be ?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1324928588' post='923259']
They could get him from multiple places. Free agency. The draft. a trade.

Those are facts. [b]Carolina got Cam Newton. Denver got Tim Tebow. Cincinnatii got Andy Dalton. All from the draft... and all of them look better than Flacco with far less talent on their offense and defense.[/b]

Free agency? Matt Hassellback tore the RAVENS defense apart. And anyone who says the Titans have better weapons on their offense than the Ravens is just crazy. Imagine if Hassellback was leading the Ravens offense. Not only do they probably have a better record, but their wins against losing teams are probably much more convincing. None of these barely skate by deals. As we've seen, a QB change can effect the whole team. When Tebow took over for Broncos, their defense started playing much better. Much more confidently. Soime of these late touchdowns the Ravens defense gives up after the offense has had multiple 3 and outs... probably don't happen to the Ravens defense if the Ravens offense is still moving the ball in the 2nd half and getting at least field goals.

The Ravens could have taken a gamble on Michael Vick for no money, and let him compete with Flacco. Vick sure does have a great connection with Desean Jackson. I think Torrey Smith can be every bit as good as Desean.

Who knows, perhaps Tyrod Taylor can move the offense more consistently.

I have no idea, but I sure wouldn't mind finding out. You wanted facts, here's the major one...

This is Flacco's 4th year. I still can't say I've seen much improvement from the rookie year.

If all you want is to make the playoffs, perhaps Flacco can keep doing that. But Steelers don't look to be going anywhere, and Bengals sure look good for a team with a rookie QB and rookie WR. And they got some nice picks for Carson Palmer that could make them even better if they turn out like Dalton and Green have.
[/quote]

Just because you know little to nothing about the players on those teams doesn't mean they automatically have significantly less talent surrounding them on offense.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1324929037' post='923269']

Well, those QBs throw a lot more than Joe, so there would naturally be more drops.
[/quote]
To be fair, Flacco is 6th in attempts this year. While I do agree the drops have hurt, they are not the reason (or at least the main) for Flacco's inconsistencies. I am really starting to grow concerned here!

[DMH_in_WA]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1324929037' post='923269']

Well, those QBs throw a lot more than Joe, so there would naturally be more drops.
[/quote]

No. This is what I meant earlier that people are basing what they think on what they remember and not what is actually happening. Two different things. I know it seems like he doesn't but he does:

Brady - 378 comp / 576 attempts
Brees - 417 comp /583 attempts (how insane is that completion percentage)
Rodgers - 343 comp /502 attempts

Flacco - 297 comp /523 attempts

[Tank 92]

[quote name='DMH_in_WA' timestamp='1324924990' post='923197']

How often do we all stay on topic? [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img] Here's the thing, I am not trying to defend the D in the San Diego game (blaming the almost comeback on the D in the Cleveland game is fantasy - we're going to have to agree to disagree on that). I'm not trying to blame our struggles all on the O or Flacco. I completely agree that Joe is the best QB we've had in this franchise. I think we take the 4 straight years of winning football for granted and have lost some perspective on that. I think that Flacco can be a great QB under the right coach.

All that said, Joe has some obvious flaws that we should be able to discuss without people immediately circling the wagons on both sides and trying to slap down anyone who says anything. For those of us not in the Flacco war, it's old. This topic started basically as a "put up or shut up taunt" to the other side, but I participated anyway just for the sake of discussion with my pick and even though I don't feel we need to replace Flacco. But, as usual, it has gone the way you expect these to go on the forum. What else is new.
[/quote]


10-4. I'm with ya'. Well, almost anyway.

[The Raven]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1324929628' post='923283']
To be fair,[b] Flacco is 6th in attempts this year[/b]. While I do agree the drops have hurt, they are not the reason (or at least the main) for Flacco's inconsistencies. I am really starting to grow concerned here!
[/quote]

Really? Wow. That is a problem. A big one. I had no idea we've thrown it that much.

[bpytnjr58]

Yes...they can start Tyrod Taylor next year and they can run the option so we can have "Tebow Time" in Baltimore! NOT!

[1/28/01]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1324929862' post='923290']

Really? Wow. That is a problem. A big one. I had no idea we've thrown it that much.
[/quote]
Yeah, its pretty disgusting that Cam has allowed/enabled/called this many throws with the likes of Ray, Ricky and Vonta on this roster!!

[The Raven]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1324929985' post='923294']
Yeah, its pretty disgusting that Cam has allowed/enabled/called this many throws with the likes of Ray, Ricky and Vonta on this roster!!
[/quote]

It's horrible. Cam really needs to become run first. A run game is only going to be successful when you truly commit to the run. Ugh I could go on forever about how much that inept OC ticks me off.

[Ravenslifer]

It's not just the number of throws. Cam has called 70 passes of 20 yards or more, and Joe has completed 18 of them. He's actually right on par with the numbers of a lot of quarterbacks in this league. Here's a comparison, the number before the brackets is completion percentage, and the fraction is completions v. attempts.

Distance: behind los 1-10 yards 11-20 yards 21-30 yards 31-40 yards 40+ yards

Tom Brady: 73.8 (48/65) 73.6 (212/288) 53.9 (77/133) 42.9 (12/28) 0 (0/8) 16.7 (1/6)

Joe Flacco: 73.8 (62/84) 64.4 (152/236) 49.5 (53/107) 27.5 (11/40) 13.3 (2/15) 33.3 (5/15)

[DMH_in_WA]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1324929862' post='923290']

Really? Wow. That is a problem. A big one. I had no idea we've thrown it that much.
[/quote]

And before anyone gets it twisted, this is not a shot at Joe. It was just to show that we drop as many passes and we throw as much (in most case more) as the next team and we're in line with the rest of the league.

That said, numbers are not always straightforward. There's a lot going on here. Situational football, Cameron dials up a LOT of low percentage medium and long passing plays (he's a gambler and he might be legally retarded - though don't quote me on that, just a feeling)., receivers not running back to the ball, etc. Joe doesn't help at times with the late throws, the over/under throws and deciding the throw into heavy double and triple coverage, but it's not just him.

I'm concerned for this year and I think I have the right to be. But I am optimistic that a simple coaching change will make a world of difference.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1324929862' post='923290']
Really? Wow. That is a problem. A big one. I had no idea we've thrown it that much.
[/quote]

I think prior to the Seahawks game, Joe was on pace for the sixth most attempts in league history.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1324931150' post='923312']
I think prior to the Seahawks game, Joe was on pace for the sixth most attempts in league history.
[/quote]

That's absolutely disgusting. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/34853_shakehead.GIF[/img]

[BenDufusberger]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1324930126' post='923298']

It's horrible. Cam really needs to become run first. A run game is only going to be successful when you truly commit to the run. Ugh I could go on forever about how much that inept OC ticks me off.
[/quote]

Last month the NYT Fifthdown blog did a post on "pass-happy" teams in the NFL , using a measure that adjusted for the effects of negative scoring margins on the need to pass more often :

[url="http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/the-true-measure-of-a-pass-heavy-offense/"]http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/the-true-measure-of-a-pass-heavy-offense/[/url]

The Ravens were second behind only GB/Rodgers in pass-happiness. This was after 8 or 9 games of this season , I believe. Here's what they said about the Ravens :

" Perhaps the most interesting team? The Ravens. A couple of weeks ago, [url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SuggTe99.htm"]Terrell Suggs[/url] said the Ravens [url="http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/15820551/ravens-inconsistency-on-offense-casts-postseason-doubts"]needed to pass less and run more[/url]; it’s hard to disagree with him. The Ravens have been extremely pass-heavy this season, once you factor in the game situation. Consider that against the Rams, when Baltimore raced out to a 21-0 lead before the first quarter ended, [url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FlacJo00.htm"]Joe Flacco[/url] [url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201109250ram.htm"]threw 48 passes while the running backs had just 17 carries[/url]. Suggs’s comments came after the Jaguars loss, when Baltimore had [url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201110240jax.htm"]41 dropbacks against just 12 rushes[/url] in a game that was close throughout. Against the Steelers this weekend, Baltimore [url="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201111060pit.htm"]called 50 passing plays[/url] despite leading for a majority of the game. "

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1324931273' post='923315']

That's absolutely disgusting. [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/34853_shakehead.GIF[/img]
[/quote]

Cam is insane. Between the Jags, Seahawks, and Chargers, Ray Rice carried the ball 23 times. He carried it 21 vs. the 49ers, 29 and 23 times against the Browns, and 26 against Indy. Oh, and both the 9ers and the Browns have top 10 rushing defenses, while none of those three I mentioned above is in the top 10.

[DMH_in_WA]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1324931625' post='923321']

Cam is insane. Between the Jags, Seahawks, and Chargers, Ray Rice carried the ball 23 times. He carried it 21 vs. the 49ers, 29 and 23 times against the Browns, and 26 against Indy. Oh, and both the 9ers and the Browns have top 10 rushing defenses, while none of those three I mentioned above is in the top 10.
[/quote]

They've pretty much stabilized the pass:run ratio to what most of us would find acceptable. A big turn around from his earlier playcalling. Currently (using Brees, Brady and Rodgers as comparison since they keep popping up):

Patriots - 576 passes - 409 carries (58.5% passing)
Packers - 508 passes - 371 carries (57.8% passing)
Saints - 585 passes - 373 carrues (61% passing)

Ravens - 525 passes - 427 rushes (55.2% passing)

Now, the actual plays he's calling (especially some of the run plays) .. that's a different matter.

[johnmike72]

Im not defending Cam, but when we fall behind in a game, because of the DEFENSE giving up all the points we have to go to the air to try and catch up. So throw some of the blame at the defense for those type of games...

[SanDiegan Raven]

On the real, I'm with K-Dog 100%

Especially when he says that no matter who the QB is most fans look at the game in hindsight and it won't matter.

However, once you eliminate Cameron you can really see what you have in Flacco. It makes me wonder why we have Evans and Boldin, premier receivers everywhere else, and they can't produce a top passing game. I've watched other teams all season get players 5-10 yards in the open and very rarely do we have someone just left wide open by design.

To answer your question about getting rid of Flacco, no one. There is no other QB available that will be better than Flacco. Tyrod Taylor maybe in 3 years as his contract expires you'll be in a position to keep or move Flacco but that is a long way off.

1)Rodgers
2)Brady
3)Brees
4)Peyton
5)Rivers
6)Roethlisberger (pains me to say it but he is good)
7)Vick
8)Eli
9)Cam Newton (before it's said and done will totally change the position)
10)Flacco
11)Ryan

This is how I see the QBs in the league. Now all 9 above Flacco have no shot of coming to Baltimore. Flacco has the ability and talent to be a top 5 QB in this league. He also has the receivers. You mean to tell me with Boldin, Evans, Smith, Dickson, Pitta, and Rice we can't produce a top 10 offense that is CONSISTANT? Ozzie is the man but the ball is being dropped in coaching.

When you look at Cam and his history you see a history of mediocrity. People forget that he was the OC when LT set the single season record. It's what got him the job in Miami. Cam is not known for a premier passing attack but for solid run games in which the pass is built from play action. If we don't win the SB this year who gets the can? Harbaugh, Cameron, or Flacco.

[bpytnjr58]

[quote name='johnmike72' timestamp='1324932332' post='923329']
Im not defending Cam, but when we fall behind in a game, because of the DEFENSE giving up all the points we have to go to the air to try and catch up. So throw some of the blame at the defense for those type of games...
[/quote]
That would be the case for the San Diego game as far as defense laying an egg but you cannot put the blame on them with the Jax and Seattle games because that was all on the offense.

[SanDiegan Raven]

[quote name='johnmike72' timestamp='1324932332' post='923329']
Im not defending Cam, but when we fall behind in a game, because of the DEFENSE giving up all the points we have to go to the air to try and catch up. So throw some of the blame at the defense for those type of games...
[/quote]

Arizona and San Diego were the only games where we fell behind and were forced to throw to get back in it. Better stated, Arizona and San Diego are the only games in which the defense put the offense in a bad position. You mean to tell me that in 2 games the offense shouldn't be expected to hold their end? Come now. Defenses in this league are going to have bad games and teams like San Diego are going to have your number sometimes. Defense played poorly against Titans, Cardinals, and San Diego. ( I might even put Seattle in the mix due to the inability to get off the field at the end.) Of those games the offense (Cam) came through 1 time. The offense has much to be desired. You can scream execution until you're blue in the face but if you execute garbage it won't work.

[True]

The question should be who will be our New QB COACH next year because the current one sucks...

[DMH_in_WA]

[quote name='johnmike72' timestamp='1324932332' post='923329']
Im not defending Cam, but when we fall behind in a game, because of the DEFENSE giving up all the points we have to go to the air to try and catch up. So throw some of the blame at the defense for those type of games...
[/quote]


Another of those things that sounds reasonable until you look at the games. Chargers game, no doubt. The defense got steamrolled and the game got out of hand due to it. I'd throw the Arizona game in there too (but not to the extent of the San Diego game by a long shot)

The other loses:

Tenn - It was 10-10 at half. Webb got burned for 42 yards to start 2nd half, they score a TD. Flacco responds with 3 incomplete passes, they get the ball back and get a FG. Offense goes 6 and out (Flacco 1-4). Next possession Flacco throws a INT. Titans get a FG off of that. Final 2 scoring drives on either side we trade FGs. 26-13 Titans. 35 passes / 17 rushes

Jags - The D held them to 1 FG in each quarter. Ravens 2-12 on 3rd downs. 8 total 1st downs. We don't score a point until there's about 2 mins left in the game. Don't think I'm putting this one on the D. 12-7 Jags. 41 passes/ 12 rushes

Hawks - 19-7 Hawks at half. Hawks get 10 points off short fields from stupid missed FG and fumble on kickoff. D had trouble containg Lynch, but again .. offense didn't respond well. 54 passes / 12 rushes

[bpytnjr58]

[quote name='True' timestamp='1324933546' post='923341']
The question should be who will be our New QB COACH next year because the current one sucks...
[/quote]
The current one is the guy holding the playcard up to his face.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='SanDiegan Raven' timestamp='1324932702' post='923334']
On the real, I'm with K-Dog 100%

Especially when he says that no matter who the QB is most fans look at the game in hindsight and it won't matter.

However, once you eliminate Cameron you can really see what you have in Flacco. [b]It makes me wonder why we have Evans and Boldin, premier receivers everywhere else, and they can't produce a top passing game.[/b]I've watched other teams all season get players 5-10 yards in the open and very rarely do we have someone just left wide open by design.

To answer your question about getting rid of Flacco, no one. There is no other QB available that will be better than Flacco. Tyrod Taylor maybe in 3 years as his contract expires you'll be in a position to keep or move Flacco but that is a long way off.

1)Rodgers
2)Brady
3)Brees
4)Peyton
5)Rivers
6)Roethlisberger (pains me to say it but he is good)
7)Vick
8)Eli
9)Cam Newton (before it's said and done will totally change the position)
10)Flacco
11)Ryan

This is how I see the QBs in the league. Now all 9 above Flacco have no shot of coming to Baltimore. Flacco has the ability and talent to be a top 5 QB in this league. He also has the receivers. You mean to tell me with Boldin, Evans, Smith, Dickson, Pitta, and Rice we can't produce a top 10 offense that is CONSISTANT? Ozzie is the man but the ball is being dropped in coaching.

When you look at Cam and his history you see a history of mediocrity. People forget that he was the OC when LT set the single season record. It's what got him the job in Miami. Cam is not known for a premier passing attack but for solid run games in which the pass is built from play action. If we don't win the SB this year who gets the can? Harbaugh, Cameron, or Flacco.
[/quote]

Cam's play-calling is a major issue but have either Q or Evans really looked like the same players they were just three seasons ago in your opinion?

Boldin has looked noticeably slower since last year and Evans wasn't surpassed by Stevie Johnson last season inexplicably. He's not the same guy.

Those that firmly don't believe in Joe can take this however they want. Joe's inaccuracy and other issues speak for themselves but the WRs have played a part in the offense's trouble.

[shootyoup]

How many excuses can you guys possibly make for Flacco? No he's not horrible, and with this defense he can lead us to 10+ wins every single season for the next 10 years. But the goal is to win a Superbowl (i think?) and mediocre play (by the D, o-line, qb) is usually not going to cut it.

The most objective way to evaluate a player's contributions is by his stats. Flacco is 20th in qb rating and his completion percentage is only above that of Sanchez, Ponder, and Tebow. He also has thrown 19 touchdowns but has 21 interceptions/fumbles (Granted not all fumbles were lost). How can does this justify a label of elite quarterback?

Many posters say he is an "AFC North quarterback." Sure the AFC North is tough, but we're probably the toughest team. So that means he has to face Pitt and Cinci 4 times a year but gets to beat up on Cleveland twice. Is that enough to justify his stats? Just because he plays in a hard division, he cannot possibly have good stats right? Ben Roethlisberger puts up much better numbers, Andy Dalton has been bettter, and Colt is not far behind Flacco.

And apparently, Flacco just does whatever it takes to win. But these same exact people throw Alex Smith under the bus as a "game manager." Smith has the 10th highest qb rating and has only thrown 6 interceptions on the year, yet the Ravens game "exposed him." In that game, he was sacked NINE! times, yet he was 15/24 for 140 yards and one int. Look at those stats, they aren't horrible, especially considering he was sacked nine times and avoided pressure with his feet a lot. If Flacco was in a similar situation he could have been 12/28 for 180 and two picks and everyone here would blame the offensive line, yet these same situations make other qb's game managers. Also Flacco has had worse stats this year in Raven VICTORIES. Plus, is Smith not also a winner?

Also, Flacco apparently doesn't have weapons to work with. I'd say A. Smith, Matt Moore, Jay Cutler, Cam Newton, Kevin Kolb, Andy Dalton, Matt Hasselbeck, and Ryan Fitzpatrick all have comparable or inferior offenses to work with and all have higher qb ratings (I know, not always the best indicator).

However I understand where you guys are coming from. With the exception of the 4th q of the San Diego game, I have watched just about every snap this season. It seems like Flacco is doing a good job every week of keeping the game in hand and not making mistakes. I have ZERO problem with this while I'm watching the game, but when you view the season holistically and objectively you must realize this happens wayyyy too much. Every other qb in the league plays in tough games, but they are able to win and put up better stats. I know Cam is frustrating, but Flacco's performance must frustrate you. He flat out makes really dumb throws (pass to Takeo Spikes and Nate Clements come to mind) and he misses a lot of easy throws to (Lee Evans vs San Diego). If the SB is the goal, and not just the playoffs, we need better performance.
I don't know of a better qb option, but I think we must look into drafting one in the 2nd round this year. Ravens fans have sooo many excuses for Flacco (i know he's the best raven qb ever), but think about this: if the defense put up comparable performances(20th in scoring, 3rd to last in pass yds allowed, for example) would you be so forgiving? I think you guys need to objectively view this situation, and looking into potential qb options is a must in this year's draft.

[RivenHale]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1324934418' post='923355']
Those that firmly don't believe in Joe can take this however they want. Joe's inaccuracy and other issues speak for themselves but the WRs have played a part in the offense's trouble.
[/quote]

That's why I'm even MORE excited about Torrey. Doss and Q2 might turn out to be good too, and I still have faith in Reed as a receiver eventually*, and I love our tight ends. Looks like MAYBE we can stop going to free agency and grabbing washed-up older possession receivers, and finally we can draft guys Joe can grow up with. Torrey has a legitimate possibility of being our #1 one day. And I LOVE that we DRAFTED him.



*Odd, I know, because he has done literally nothing.

[respecttheRaven]

Is Skip Bayless on this forum or what? Joe is Our QB. And will prove himself.

[respecttheRaven]

Flacco does not have QB coach remember? They fired Jim Zorn , and Joe was upset about it.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1324928588' post='923259']
They could get him from multiple places. Free agency. The draft. a trade.

Those are facts. Carolina got Cam Newton. Denver got Tim Tebow. Cincinnatii got Andy Dalton. All from the draft... and all of them look better than Flacco with far less talent on their offense and defense.

Free agency? Matt Hassellback tore the RAVENS defense apart. And anyone who says the Titans have better weapons on their offense than the Ravens is just crazy. Imagine if Hassellback was leading the Ravens offense. Not only do they probably have a better record, but their wins against losing teams are probably much more convincing. None of these barely skate by deals. As we've seen, a QB change can effect the whole team. When Tebow took over for Broncos, their defense started playing much better. Much more confidently. Soime of these late touchdowns the Ravens defense gives up after the offense has had multiple 3 and outs... probably don't happen to the Ravens defense if the Ravens offense is still moving the ball in the 2nd half and getting at least field goals.

The Ravens could have taken a gamble on Michael Vick for no money, and let him compete with Flacco. Vick sure does have a great connection with Desean Jackson. I think Torrey Smith can be every bit as good as Desean.

Who knows, perhaps Tyrod Taylor can move the offense more consistently.

I have no idea, but I sure wouldn't mind finding out. You wanted facts, here's the major one...

This is Flacco's 4th year. I still can't say I've seen much improvement from the rookie year.

If all you want is to make the playoffs, perhaps Flacco can keep doing that. But Steelers don't look to be going anywhere, and Bengals sure look good for a team with a rookie QB and rookie WR. And they got some nice picks for Carson Palmer that could make them even better if they turn out like Dalton and Green have.
[/quote]

You lost all credibility when you said Tebow looked better than Flacco.

13/30 4 INTs 2 for pick 6's

[RayRiceFan27]

[quote name='wizard1' timestamp='1324840070' post='922508']
and how much time does he need exactly? and in the meantime our all word defense gets old and ends up never getting the SB ring they deserve. I'm sure you were one of the guys that supported the Boller experiment till the bitter end. Here is a fact-next week Joe Flacco will again play like Pee Wee Herman and we will end up the 5th seeded wild card team and on the road throughout and I'm sure we all remember what that road looks like. I hear rumors on my end that Philip Rivers may be part of the Norv Turner firing at the end of the season and is unhappy in San Diego-its unconfirmed but possible!
[/quote]


Ok, so if we get rid of joe, and draft another QB, wont we have to wait a few years for that QB to develop, and wont our D get old while we wait for another qb to develop? Also, if we get rid of Joe and sign some old guy as a plug, wont it be a year for him to get used to our WR, and team untill he plays well, and wont our D just get old waiting for him to get acustom to our system?

The bottom line is no matter what we do our D will only get older. We cant expect to just get another QB and just expect him to just come in and get us a SB ring in a short time. I know, alot hate Flacco on here, but many need to realize he is still out best option at QB right now. If we get rid of Joe? I dont see us getting a ring anytime soon, and if we try to trade for a good QB, there go our good players, because you know darn well a good QB is going to come with a large asking price. There is no happy medium right now.

Im still waiting for alot of you to answer the ops questions. Ive seen all neg flacco comments but no solutions. I cant stand it when people complain and dont give any solutions. So Im with the op, what do you guys expect to do? WHAT IS THE ANSWER?

[ROH522155]

[quote name='ravensdfan' timestamp='1324936334' post='923388']

You lost all credibility when you said Tebow looked better than Flacco.

13/30 4 INTs 2 for pick 6's
[/quote]

That's been lost for a long long time now. Probably since the days when he was clamoring for Troy Smith to start over Flacco.