Who Will Our New Qb Be ?

[Ravens Fan in Ontario]

Jeff Garcia actually is on the Houston Texans roster.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Ravens Fan in Ontario' timestamp='1326297257' post='943433']
Jeff Garcia actually is on the Houston Texans roster.
[/quote]
Quite the odd little post here...

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1326296386' post='943411']


I've always felt that Flacco is in the same group as Brees, Rodgers and Manning in his ability to throw deep balls. Yes those other guys have elite talent at WR and Joe doesn't, but that shouldn't take away from the fact that they are simply amazing QBs.
And it is a big time compliment to put Joe in that category...obviously he isn't as good as them in other aspects, but just agreeing with your point that [b]Flacco has made Torrey's job MUCH easier[/b].

I still think that one of the greatest throws that I have ever seen by any QB was in either 2008 or 2009 against the Bengals when Clayton was having his monster game.
Clayton ran a fly down the sideline, and was covered nearly perfectly by Leon Hall. But Flacco still threw an absolutely perfectly placed ball into Clayton's hands....instead of me trying to describe it, here's a link (the very first play of the video):

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAtqf5OGO4o[/media]
[/quote]

Exactly. And if Flacco had a receiver like those other guys, or if Torrey becomes that guy, he will be an even better qb. I just always like to remind people that elite quarterbacks generally have elite talent around them at the wide receiver positions, and Flacco has to this point never had that. Maybe Torrey will become that guy, maybe we draft a Michael Floyd or a Mohammed Sanu and they become that guy, but right now Flacco has a bunch of number 2 receivers (Boldin, Smith, Evans) and no number 1. Most elite quarterbacks (maybe P. Manning is the exception, and I would have said Rodgers until the emergence of Jennings and now Jordy Nelson) have a true number 1 receiver, a guy that HAS to be double teamed or will dominate you, and who makes clutch catches at will.

[Ravens Fan in Ontario]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1326298277' post='943456']
Quite the odd little post here...
[/quote]
haha I had several threads open. I guess I posted on the wrong one! LOL

[Ravens Fan in Ontario]

I think Flacco is and will be fine on the Ravens. I do agree that I would lay the majority of his stat line issues at the feet of the OC. IMO he is a victim of the system. However that being said, he can play to the system that is being currently played.

It takes time for a QB to develop at the NFL level. If you think that Brady or Brees were made for the NFL QB's then you are sadly mistaken. The debate about Brady and his being a System QB have raged on for years. I personally think that the Pats Offensive System made Brady into the QB that he is. They gave him the opportunity to grow and succeed.

This is what needs to happen in Baltimore with Joe Flacco. If I'm being perfectly honest I was concerned when Flacco was drafted just based on the history that he changed schools when he lost the starting job to Palko.

I am confident (NOW) that Flacco can become the QB of this franchise for years.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Ravens Fan in Ontario' timestamp='1326301011' post='943509']
I think Flacco is and will be fine on the Ravens. I do agree that I would lay the majority of his stat line issues at the feet of the OC. IMO he is a victim of the system. However that being said, he can play to the system that is being currently played.

It takes time for a QB to develop at the NFL level. If you think that Brady or Brees were made for the NFL QB's then you are sadly mistaken. The debate about Brady and his being a System QB have raged on for years. I personally think that the Pats Offensive System made Brady into the QB that he is. They gave him the opportunity to grow and succeed.

This is what needs to happen in Baltimore with Joe Flacco. If I'm being perfectly honest I was concerned when Flacco was drafted just based on the history that he changed schools [b]when he lost the starting job to Palko[/b].

I am confident (NOW) that Flacco can become the QB of this franchise for years.
[/quote]

If you read into some of the backstory of that whole thing, it seems clear that Joe transferred for 2 reasons: 1) he felt sure that he was the better starting option than Palko, and 2) he feels he was promised a fair shot to start at Pittsburgh and wasn't given the opportunity to compete. You can blame the coaching staff for that. I think I read somewhere that Palko won the job in part because his father had a lot of clout in the Pennsylvania area as a HS football coach. Joe called his parents and told them he knew he was better than the guys on the depth chart ahead of him and wasn't getting a far shot at the starting job. The whole thing seemed to be a lot of politics and stuff, and seriously poor judgement on Dave Wannsdet's part.

[JaxFlaccoFan]

Flacco never lost his starting job to Palko. He never had the starting job. Palko was a year older and had the starting position. Joe felt like he never had a fair chance to compete for it. He would have started his senior year but would have only had one year to show the NFL what he could do. I don't blame him one bit for transferring so he could show off his talent. It was a wise career move on his part.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1326298564' post='943462']

Exactly. And if Flacco had a receiver like those other guys, or if Torrey becomes that guy, he will be an even better qb. I just always like to remind people that elite quarterbacks generally have elite talent around them at the wide receiver positions, and Flacco has to this point never had that. Maybe Torrey will become that guy, maybe we draft a Michael Floyd or a Mohammed Sanu and they become that guy, but right now Flacco has a bunch of number 2 receivers (Boldin, Smith, Evans) and no number 1. [b] Most elite quarterbacks (maybe P. Manning is the exception, and I would have said Rodgers until the emergence of Jennings and now Jordy Nelson)[/b] have a true number 1 receiver, a guy that HAS to be double teamed or will dominate you, and who makes clutch catches at will.
[/quote]

Hmm you lost me here, but I definitely agree with your premise. Joe has never had a true #1 and that trend may continue. Back to what I bolded, are you familiar with Marvin Harrison? How about Reggie Wayne? They were elite WRs. Jennings was on his way to being elite before Aaron Rodgers started and with the emergence of Nelson he now has 2 legitimate #1 WRs. Now the argument can certainly be made that Rodgers/Manning made them better and that is certainly true to an extent, but those WRs all have immense talent.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1326321268' post='943946']

Hmm you lost me here, but I definitely agree with your premise. Joe has never had a true #1 and that trend may continue. Back to what I bolded, are you familiar with Marvin Harrison? How about Reggie Wayne? They were elite WRs. Jennings was on his way to being elite before Aaron Rodgers started and with the emergence of Nelson he now has 2 legitimate #1 WRs. Now the argument can certainly be made that Rodgers/Manning made them better and that is certainly true to an extent, but those WRs all have immense talent.
[/quote]

I've seen Manning throw to Jacob Tammy, Blair White, Austin Collie , Pierre Garcon, Quan Cosby, and every time he makes these guys look like superstars. But you have a point. I haven't been following the Colts this year, and I assumed Wayne and the other receivers on that team had like 500 yards or less. But Wayne played well. I guess I always assumed Peyton made his entire offensive unit look much more impressive than they ever really were. He certainly did for his offensive line. I would definitely include Harrison, and probably Wayne as well. Which, I guess, makes my point even more. Great quarterbacks are almost always surrounded by great talent at the receiver position, whether it's Montana and Young with Rice, Curt Warner with Tory Holt and Issac Bruce, Brady with Moss and Welker, Jim Kelly and Andre Reed, etc.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1326321268' post='943946']
Hmm you lost me here, but I definitely agree with your premise. Joe has never had a true #1 and that trend may continue. Back to what I bolded, are you familiar with Marvin Harrison? How about Reggie Wayne? They were elite WRs. Jennings was on his way to being elite before Aaron Rodgers started and with the emergence of Nelson he now has 2 legitimate #1 WRs. Now the argument can certainly be made that Rodgers/Manning made them better and that is certainly true to an extent, but those WRs all have immense talent.
[/quote]

Agreed. Manning threw hundreds of pin-point accurate passes to them but both Harrison and Wayne go separation almost effortlessly in their prime and frequently made tough catches too, Reggie especially.

[ROH522155]

LOL at Joe's sarcasm today: "I'm sure if we win then I'll have nothing to do with it" hahaha

[SecretAgentMan]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1326323571' post='944009']

Agreed. Manning threw hundreds of pin-point accurate passes to them but both Harrison and Wayne go separation almost effortlessly in their prime and frequently made tough catches too, Reggie especially.
[/quote]
Hmm. I think we should go after a big time reciver nex free agency then. Boldin was a number one option, Smith will become one. I think we need to get a big reciver via draft or free agency. Steps to get Flacco to play better

1st and most importantly
[b]Fire Cam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/b]
2nd
Get Legit LT
3rd
Get Big Physical Reciver. Many Say Ashlon Jeffery wil fall??????????????????????
4th
Get Rid of Evans (Unless no big physical option)
Won't mind one veteran, but 2??? We are trying to get younger
5th Keep playing strong defense.
If Flacco starts clicking and playing at the level our D (or at least a pro bowl level) is playing then good luck trying to beat us.
6th Preserve Rice
Nuff Said

[shootyoup]

[quote name='frozen joe flacco fan' timestamp='1325622418' post='933634']
All Joe deserves is a fair day's pay for an honest day's work. Based on his body of work over the last 4 years, he's the only starting QB who has led his team to the playoffs 4 years in a row. Seeing that there are only 12 starting QBs in the playoffs in any given year, he is certainly in the top 12. As I have said previously, he's definitely in the Top 10 and he deserves Top 10 money now. As Leo "The Lip" Durocher once said, "Statistics are for losers." To the contrary, what I have posted here are not statistics. They are facts. By the way, I cannot believe that a few of you hard core Flacco detractors don't even have the intestinal fortitude to admit Joe Flacco has proven you wrong! He literally wen't into the Tigers' Cage and came out on top. If you still don't see that, you should probably schedule an appointment with your optometrist. Yes, its a team sport but Joe's our leader and I've never seen a prettier pass than the one he threw to Lee Evans who ultimately dropped it.

Ernie Accorsi, then Colts GM, once questioned John Unitas about a TD pass he threw to Raymond Berry against the LA Rams. After throwing the pass, Unitas started to walk off the field without looking to see if Berry had caught it or not. When asked about it, John responded, "I threw him a perfect pass; it was up to him to catch it." The difference is Berry caught the pass and scored a TD. If Evans had caught the pass, he would have scored a TD. Instead, it was just anothernegative statistic for you Joe Flacco detractors to hang your hat on. Intersetingly, I didn't see much more of Evans after that drop. Let me be perfectly clear. I'm not trying to compare Joe with Johnny U. Obviously, for anyone who had the pleasure to watch Unitas surgically dissect his opposition, he was w/o peers, statistics aside. I am saying Joe Flacco is one of the active Top 10 QBs in the NFL. If you still disagree, name ten active starting QBs who you would objectively rank above him. I think you'll find it is not easy to do if you put some serious thought into it and not just your negative emotion about Joe.
[/quote]
I have him behind Manning, Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Stafford, Vick, Schaub, Ryan.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='shootyoup' timestamp='1326333588' post='944207']
I have him behind Manning,  Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Stafford, Vick, Schaub, Ryan.
[/quote]
Behind Ryan? What a crock!!!

[shootyoup]

[quote name='1/28/01' timestamp='1326336455' post='944264']
Behind Ryan? What a crock!!!
[/quote]
Yes maybe you're right. Ryan hasn't done too much of anything in the playoffs.
The main thing I based my rankings on are stats. There is no other more subjective way to evaluate a player. Ryan has had slightly more impressive stats but he does have a better offense so work with, so maybe I erred in ranking Flacco behind him.

However, I do think we as Raven fans make too many excuses for Flacco. Against the 49ers, many of us here claimed that Alex Smith was "exposed as a game manager." He got sacked NINE times, escaped the pressure a lot with his mobility, threw only one pick I think (nothing impressive but still somewhat noteworthy considering the pressure), and overall did not play too bad. However we have seen much worse performances from Flacco this year, and for the most part, they have been dismissed due to bad play calling or poor line play. Likewise, I have seen people here blasting Tony Romo for being "unclutch" while other than a few instances, Flacco has certainly not been the most clutch QB. In addition, I disagree with the notion that Romo and Smith's (I am only using them as two examples, I don't have time to go into this too much) have vastly superior weapons; Boldin has been a great receiver, Rice is great, and Dickson and Pitta are good (Evans sucks, his stats the past seasons have been horrible IDK why we traded for him). Overall if you look at Flacco's stats, you would see he is near the bottom in most categories (he did limit interceptions, which I am impressed with), and I do not believe this can all be placed on Cam (Matt Moore has had much more impressive stats, please don't argue he has more to work with). I don't see huge problems with Flacco's game when we play, but contrary to most people, I feel the system has helped him a lot rather than hurt him. When people evaluate Flacco with the same standards we set for other QBs I believe we'll see much to be desired and really unimpressive play.

That said, I fully support him, Cam, and everyone going into the playoffs.

[shootyoup]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1326340669' post='944332']

That might be one of the most illogical posts I've ever read. You're entitled to your opinion, but clearly you didn't bother to take facts into consideration, and you obviously weren't watching the games.
[/quote]
The facts are Flacco is 18th in qb rating, has a 57.6% completion percentage, regressed considerably in his fourth year, and was absolutely abysmal against the Jets, Seahawks, and Jaguars. I guess that ranks him right behind Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Drew Brees in the eyes of most Ravens fans. And of course a 91 QB rating, 17 touchdowns, and 5 interceptions is the statline of a useless game manager.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='shootyoup' timestamp='1326341244' post='944341']
The facts are Flacco is 18th in qb rating, has a 57.6% completion percentage, regressed considerably in his fourth year, and was absolutely abysmal against the Jets, Seahawks, and Jaguars. I guess that ranks him right behind Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Drew Brees in the eyes of most Ravens fans. And of course a 91 QB rating, 17 touchdowns, and 5 interceptions is the statline of a useless game manager.
[/quote]

And how many games vs top 10 defenses did other quarterbacks play? Flacco played 12. Gee, maybe that's why he had such a difficult time. Or maybe it was the fact that his starting wide receiver was a ROOKIE? Or maybe it was the fact that his receivers dropped over 30 of his passes that were deemed catchable balls and who knows how many more they should have caught? What's your explanation then for the Arizona game? How did we win that one? How did we beat Pittsburgh, was it Aaron Rodgers throwing the passes? You are way too caught up in stats, and not even the important stats at that. You're like that guy who wants to rank all quarterbacks based on their quarterback rating. News flash: some quarterbacks get easy schedules, Joe got one full of the best defenses in the league. And he beat most of them, with a rookie wide receiver and his number one receiver gone for 2 games.

Again, check the facts. Flacco played a difficult schedule. His receivers have dropped over 30 [i]catchable[/i] balls this season, including at least 4 TD passes. His effective completion percentage (meaning without the absolutely BLATANT drops), is about 62 percent. But of course, if you want to ignore what actually happened in the game and use a website to base rankings off of, be my guest.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='shootyoup' timestamp='1326333588' post='944207']
I have him behind Manning, Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Stafford, Vick, Schaub, Ryan.
[/quote]
Ehhhh, with Ryan off the list I'd agree. Ryan plays in a dome 8 games a year, and that division has some abysmal defenses.

[shootyoup]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1326341515' post='944343']

And how many games vs top 10 defenses did other quarterbacks play? Flacco played 12. Gee, maybe that's why he had such a difficult time. Or maybe it was the fact that his starting wide receiver was a ROOKIE? Or maybe it was the fact that his receivers dropped over 30 of his passes that were deemed catchable balls and who knows how many more they should have caught? What's your explanation then for the Arizona game? How did we win that one? How did we beat Pittsburgh, was it Aaron Rodgers throwing the passes? You are way too caught up in stats, and not even the important stats at that. You're like that guy who wants to rank all quarterbacks based on their quarterback rating. News flash: some quarterbacks get easy schedules, Joe got one full of the best defenses in the league. And he beat most of them, with a rookie wide receiver and his number one receiver gone for 2 games.

Again, check the facts. Flacco played a difficult schedule. His receivers have dropped over 30 [i]catchable[/i] balls this season, including at least 4 TD passes. His effective completion percentage (meaning without the absolutely BLATANT drops), is about 62 percent. But of course, if you want to ignore what actually happened in the game and use a website to base rankings off of, be my guest.
[/quote]
How did we beat Pittsburgh? It was with Flacco, not Rodgers. How did GB go 15-1 and win a Superbowl? With Rodgers not Flacco. I don't think you're saying Flacco is better than Rodgers so I don't understand this argument. Boldin, Rice, and Smith have indeed combined for 19 drops, but so have Watson and Little of Cleveland and Roddy White himself has 15. Let's not act as if Flacco is the only quarterback with drops.

And my opinion is not based solely on stats. If we are counting missed touchdowns, Flacco's throw right to Kerry Rhodes vs AZ that was an easy pick 6 from the redzone that was dropped and a horribly late TD throw to Lee Evans that was not inctercepted due to it being thrown right between two Seattle defenders also come to mind.

Aside from this year, Flacco has not consistently had the same amazing performances that some of the other guys I initially listed have had. My point with the Alex Smith argument (he was our top 5 defense when his offense line imploded) is that he had a single mediocre performance given the circumstances and is disregarded as a game manager. Yet similar performance from Flacco has some people on this board ranking him above Rivers right behind Brees.

[shootyoup]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1326341768' post='944346']
Ehhhh, with Ryan off the list I'd agree. Ryan plays in a dome 8 games a year, and that division has some abysmal defenses.
[/quote]
That is true. I hastily threw that list together, I think with some of the later guys I named you can make a valid argument about placing.

[CalvinSmoke]

I love Joe Flacco like the rest of you all. But he isn't at THAT level yet. The thing about elite QBs is that they'll be elite no matter where they go, and they'll make their receivers looks like stars. I'll give some examples:
Deon Branch after he left Brady? You realized he was over rated
Ocho-Cinco & Housh when they left Palmer, neither of them have shown any thing.

That being said, i think Flacco is a gamer, and he fits a lot of passes past defenders, but he hasn't been able to take over this offense yet. But it will happen soon enough

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='CalvinSmoke' timestamp='1326343697' post='944368']
I love Joe Flacco like the rest of you all. But he isn't at THAT level yet. The thing about elite QBs is that they'll be elite no matter where they go, and[b] they'll make their receivers looks like stars[/b]. I'll give some examples:
Deon Branch after he left Brady? You realized he was over rated
Ocho-Cinco & Housh when they left Palmer, neither of them have shown any thing.

That being said, i think Flacco is a gamer, and he fits a lot of passes past defenders, but he hasn't been able to take over this offense yet. But it will happen soon enough
[/quote]

True. At least we know Flacco doesn't make his receivers look worse than they are like a certain quarterback who also made an AFCCG as a rookie.

[BmoreRavens732]

I dont feel like arguing but no vick definately isnt better...hes got mcoy jackson celek and maclin and doesnt do anything impressive besides scramble...and romo has austin bryant and whitten and isnt to impressive either....schaub has aj and a beast run game and still nothing so imo flaccos better

[BmoreRavens732]

Oh and ryans just a funny lil fella

[shootyoup]

[quote name='BmoreRavens732' timestamp='1326345986' post='944396']
I dont feel like arguing but no vick definately isnt better...hes got mcoy jackson celek and maclin and doesnt do anything impressive besides scramble...and romo has austin bryant and whitten and isnt to impressive either....schaub has aj and a beast run game and still nothing so imo flaccos better
[/quote]
I dont feel like arguing more either, you have your opinions and I have mine and its a really subjective matter. I would disagree with Vick and Romo though. Vick does have a lot of weapons but he threw it very well last year and his scrambling is a a signficicant part of the that offense that for some reasons analysts disregard but defenses need to be aware of. For Romo the last four years he's been healthy he has thrown at least 26 touchdowns.

I know Flacco is younger than them both, but in my opinion he hasn't really done much to supplant them in my mind. Anyways, its a trivial point. He is the guy we are stuck with/lucky to have, depending on your view, and we have a playoff game so I hope he succeeds.

[BmoreRavens732]

Fair enough

[BmoreInBmore]

Flacco is not being cut, he is going to be here for awhile, and I have never heard anyone ever say he should be cut; that is pure ridiculousness.

The guy isn't great and I don't ever think he will be, but Superbowls have been won with worse Qbs than Flacco.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

And they have been lost with better QBs but he's in the Elite Eight again!

[sluggo832004]

This team would be scary with Payton manning.

[callahan09]

[quote name='shootyoup' timestamp='1326333588' post='944207']
I have him behind Manning, Manning, Roethlisberger, Rivers, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Romo, Stafford, Vick, Schaub, Ryan.
[/quote]
Behind Ryan? No way. I'd even argue he shouldn't be behind Rivers or Eli. Rivers has the benefit of a couple of huge wide receivers that go up and catch whatever he throws their way, and he gets to work in a system with better offensive game planning and play calling. Despite all of that, he still makes a lot of mistakes. Except in December by some strange witchcraft. Eli is kind of a wash with Joe. I think Eli is a great QB as is Joe, and I could honestly see Joe putting up just about the same numbers that Eli did this season had Joe been on that Giants roster instead. Nicks and Cruz really inflated Eli's stats this season by being clutch receivers and turning short gains into huge gains with their legs.