4 Reasons Why This Isn't Our Year

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='Mr. GM' timestamp='1325175307' post='925927']
Ravenslifer so you want a piece too huh, lol. I was trying to be nice and leave you out of this, but you if you must.

In response to your post above, about how Brady, Brees, Rodgers, couldnt come into the AFC North and put up the same numbers they do in their own division. I say they can because its already been proven...(here we go again)...Rodgers did it to the steelers in the super bowl...Rivers to the Ravens(Wk15)...Manning/Brady have been beating the fur off the Ravens the past 8 years!

And no you didnt answer my question of... What did the last eight Super Bowl Champions have in common at the QB position?
The answer is they are all Pro Bowl quarterbacks!

P. Manning made the pro bowl with only Wayne and Clark and a cast of no namers. Brady has done it years past with a cast of no namers(Im not talking about when he had Moss, so dont try to use that). Brees turned a no name group of receivers into a top group in the league(Henderson was average before Brees got there, Colston was a 7th round pick, Graham was an bball player, sproles was a 3rd stringer/3rd down back 4 years ago).

I do agree that the AFC NORTH has the best group of defenses out of the league. [b]But that doesnt mean Brees, Rodgers, Brady wouldnt be able to make the pro bowl if playing in this division.[/b] Roethlisberger and Carson Palmer did it, so your view is flawed!
[/quote]

I disagree entirely. Not a one of them would last if they faced the AFCN twice a year. Nor would they have those gaudy numbers to put up every year. You can't really be trying to compare Big Ben to these three could you? Even Palmer, in his prime, had more toughness in one arm than any of them.

Just go look up the defenses those teams face on a regular basis. I think the Packers have only faced a Top 10 passing D once this season, perhaps twice.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1325175651' post='925935']


Yeah, not to downplay the astonishing seasons Rodgers and Brees just had, but they didn't exactly face tough defenses this year. It's no coincidence that the Ravens, Steelers or 49ers werent on their schedule.
[/quote]


It's not even that. We saw it, we saw what Joe did against the NFC South last year. 3-1, 8 TDs, 2 picks, and if it wasn't for not getting the ball for almost an entire quarter and/or that last minute collapse by the defense and/or that pushoff by Roddy White, it would have been 4-0. And that's without all of those receivers. Matt Ryan 27/44, 0 TDs, 1 pick, loss against the Steelers, and that's with Roddy White, and the Steelers WITHOUT Ben Roethlisberger, playing Dennis Dixon.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Mr. GM' timestamp='1325175307' post='925927']Ravenslifer so you want a piece too huh, lol. I was trying to be nice and leave you out of this, but you if you must. In response to your post above, about how Brady, Brees, Rodgers, couldnt come into the AFC North and put up the same numbers they do in their own division. I say they can because its already been proven...(here we go again)...Rodgers did it to the steelers in the super bowl...Rivers to the Ravens(Wk15)...Manning/Brady have been beating the fur off the Ravens the past 8 years! And no you didnt answer my question of... What did the last eight Super Bowl Champions have in common at the QB position? The answer is they are all Pro Bowl quarterbacks! P. Manning made the pro bowl with only Wayne and Clark and a cast of no namers. Brady has done it years past with a cast of no namers(Im not talking about when he had Moss, so dont try to use that). Brees turned a no name group of receivers into a top group in the league(Henderson was average before Brees got there, Colston was a 7th round pick, Graham was an bball player, sproles was a 3rd stringer/3rd down back 4 years ago). I do agree that the AFC NORTH has the best group of defenses out of the league. But that doesnt mean Brees, Rodgers, Brady wouldnt be able to make the pro bowl if playing in this division. Roethlisberger and Carson Palmer did it, so your view is flawed![/quote]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where Ben Roethlisberger made the pro bowl in his second season before winning the Superbowl. Or Brady before he won his first Superbowl. By that logic Trent Dilfer made the pro bowl 3 years before he joined the Ravens. Oh of course he was a great qb here. Hm, last 8 superbowl champions, that's 38-44. Let's see what else they had in common. Tom Brady, 4th and 5th years in the league. Ben Roethlisberger, 2nd year player, did nothing in the Superbowl his defense won that game. Petyon Manning 8th year in the league. Eli Manning 4th year in the league. Roethlisberger 5th year in the league. Brees 10th year in the league. Rodgers 6th year in the league. So interestingly, none of them except Ben was in anything less than their fourth year in the league, like Joe. Hm, yes they were elite, has nothing to to with the fact that they had time to develop in their systems and become elite. You either have it or you don't, why did nobody ever realize that before. I guess if you draft a guy and he doesn't win a Superbowl by his second season, by your logic dump him. You never considered that these qbs enjoy elite status after and because they won a Superbowl?

[baroquenspirit]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1325176899' post='925970']
Ben Roethlisberger, 2nd year player, did nothing in the Superbowl his defense won that game.
[/quote]

Ben had some great games on the run up to that SB. As a Steeler fan, I saw years and years of great defenses not win or even get to a SB because we did not have a Ben Roethlisberger. Without Ben, they don't win that SB either.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='baroquenspirit' timestamp='1325178689' post='926011']

Ben had some great games on the run up to that SB. As a Steeler fan, I saw years and years of great defenses not win or even get to a SB because we did not have a Ben Roethlisberger. Without Ben, they don't win that SB either.
[/quote]

Leading up to it yes, but he did nothing in the game. Which defeats the argument the poster was trying to make. You don't have to have a quarterback, even a great or elite one, play at an elite level in every game, or even every playoff game, to win a Superbowl. That's my point.

[baroquenspirit]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1325179361' post='926026']

Leading up to it yes, but he did nothing in the game. Which defeats the argument the poster was trying to make. You don't have to have a quarterback, even a great or elite one, play at an elite level in every game, or even every playoff game, to win a Superbowl. That's my point.
[/quote]

Perhaps not, but your chances go up exponentially.

[Ray Ray Ravens]

12 times this year weve played top 10 defenses. When your in a division you become more familiar with the teams around you so better planning comes with that. To believe "The Elite" QBs would put the same numbers every game against top ten defenses that they would consistently play as opposed to weaker defenses in there own division is illogical. One can only really speculate and guess the outcome but I dont believe Brees breaks that record if they were in the Browns spot of our division.

[Jarvis Pittman]

[quote name='Mr. GM' timestamp='1325167393' post='925838']
Jarvis Pittman and Ravenslifer nice try but your response is fundamentally flawed. 1. You dont answer a question with a question and 2. You never answered the question.

Mr. Pittman I'l answer your questions above^^^.
What had Aaron Rodgers done before the Super Bowl? Learned from a future Hall of Famer!
Drew Brees? He left an "overrated" Chargers team, and went to a team with better coaches!
You think that the defense is the reason for Flacco's win/loss percentage? Yes
How many games last year and the year before did the defense let the offense down and blow huge games where the team was winning? Cmon man every knows it was DC Mattison conservative play calling!
How many times this year has the defense lost games? 0,None, Titans + Jags + seahawks games the offense was horrible, Chargers game was a total team beat down!
When the game in Pittsburgh was almost over, who led the game winning td drive? Flacco was the qb, the offense line picked up the blitzes that plagued them last year against Pittsburgh for once!
Who picked apart one of the best defenses in football today? ....
Against Arizona, who led a 21 point comeback victory?
Still not convinced, then let's see about some stats. Flacco has won more games than ANY other qb since 2008. He throws on average 225 yards a game while at the same time having a run game getting close to 100 yards a game. You want Flacco to throw for more yards and td's? D@mn skippy! Any football fan would take Matthew stafford over Flacco. And dont try to say well this qb has this weapon and that qb has that weapon, I'll shut that argument down too!
Are you willing to take the ball away from Rice to get that? Rice is a good running back yes. But he is a product of the system! If you think Rice is the greatest thing since slice bread than you should go work with Cam Cameron. Running backs are a dime a dozen.

Now can you answer the ORIGINAL question that I posted to you sir!?
[/quote]

Who did Flacco learn from?

Brees didn't leave the Chargers, he was let go because he wasn't producing.

Are you willing to say that Rodgers and Brees win/loss percentage would be worse without the their defense? Brees had a defense that led the NFL in turnovers and Rodgers has a defense that is always causing turnovers. WIthout them, how would they look?

Mattison was the DC for one year. The defense was the one not making that plays to put the teams away. The defense let the team down. Flacco and the offense did their jobs.

Matt Hasselback destroyed the defense. Jags, the offense did nothing. Seattle, the defense could not stop the run when the game was on the line. The defense was run through.

Again, are you saying that the Packers and Saints win because of offensive line play or did the qb win their games. Can't say they won but Flacco didn't.

Flacco picked apart that Steelers defense on that last drive.

Against Arizona, Flacco led the team back from 21 down. Not the defense. Not the run game.

This is where you start to look dumb. You want Flacco to throw the ball more and get more yards, but you want to abandon the run game? I don't care who the weapons are. Flacco got it done with Mason and Heap as his only viable targets. The Lions have NO run game. That's why Stafford throws so much. You think that Rice is just a system back? How is that possible when the team was a power run team his first two years and then a zone run team his third year, and he still puts up the same types of yards year in and year out?

[Jarvis Pittman]

[quote name='Mr. GM' timestamp='1324561711' post='918034']

Mr. Pittman I have a question for you sir, actually two. First, What did the last eight Super Bowl Champions have in common at the QB position? Second, Flacco is fortunate to be on a team with a top 5 defense, How would Flacco's career(win/losses, stats) look like if he were on a team like the Browns or Rams?
[/quote]


What did they all have in common? Years of experience besides one, Ben.

[Mr. GM]

Flawed once again, but you get an A for effort. Look up Team Total Defense...the Patriots are 32nd, the Packers are 31st, the saints are 26th, its the quarterbacks that are carrying those teams!!! Heck the Colts are 27th, everyone knows it was P. Manning carrying them for years, now that he wasnt playing it shows even more. My point is is that great/elite/top echelon qb's can carry mediocre defense's. Think about this scenario...Brady and Flacco switch teams...now you tell me which team would have the better season?

The Ravens defense was only medeocure for one year and that was last year.

You said:
"This is where you start to look dumb. You want Flacco to throw the ball more and get more yards, but you want to abandon the run game? I don't care who the weapons are. Flacco got it done with Mason and Heap as his only viable targets. The Lions have NO run game. That's why Stafford throws so much. You think that Rice is just a system back? How is that possible when the team was a power run team his first two years and then a zone run team his third year, and he still puts up the same types of yards year in and year out?"

Huh? I never said anything about abandoning the run!? And for you to say Flacco got it done with Mason and Heap, is laughable in of it self...Mason has been on 3 teams within the past 8 months, Heap has played maybe 4 games this year. Im so glad Newsome drafted T. smith and Pitta to replace those two. If it were up to you, you would still have Mason and Heap on the roster, lol! And for that Lions comment above...sorry to break your bubble buddy, but this is a throwing league. This isnt the 50's and 60's where you can run Power I and Wing T and run the ball all day(e.g. Jim Brown) and win championships. Championships now-a-days are won by quarterbacks, the running game is just a complete to them, and of course you need a decent defense as well.

[ravensdfan]

[quote name='Mr. GM' timestamp='1325251828' post='926745']
[b]Flawed once again, but you get an A for effort. Look up Team Total Defense...the Patriots are 32nd, the Packers are 31st, the saints are 26th, its the quarterbacks that are carrying those teams!![/b]! Heck the Colts are 27th, everyone knows it was P. Manning carrying them for years, now that he wasnt playing it shows even more. My point is is that great/elite/top echelon qb's can carry mediocre defense's. Think about this scenario...Brady and Flacco switch teams...now you tell me which team would have the better season?

The Ravens defense was only medeocure for one year and that was last year.

You said:
"This is where you start to look dumb. You want Flacco to throw the ball more and get more yards, but you want to abandon the run game? I don't care who the weapons are. Flacco got it done with Mason and Heap as his only viable targets. The Lions have NO run game. That's why Stafford throws so much. You think that Rice is just a system back? How is that possible when the team was a power run team his first two years and then a zone run team his third year, and he still puts up the same types of yards year in and year out?"

Huh? I never said anything about abandoning the run!? And for you to say Flacco got it done with Mason and Heap, is laughable in of it self...Mason has been on 3 teams within the past 8 months, Heap has played maybe 4 games this year. Im so glad Newsome drafted T. smith and Pitta to replace those two. If it were up to you, you would still have Mason and Heap on the roster, lol! And for that Lions comment above...sorry to break your bubble buddy, but this is a throwing league. This isnt the 50's and 60's where you can run Power I and Wing T and run the ball all day(e.g. Jim Brown) and win championships. Championships now-a-days are won by quarterbacks, the running game is just a complete to them, and of course you need a decent defense as well.
[/quote]

It also helps a great deal that they do not routinely face Top 10 defenses. Just look at the defenses within their divisions. The teams that will take up 6 of their games.

[Jarvis Pittman]

[quote name='Mr. GM' timestamp='1325251828' post='926745']
Flawed once again, but you get an A for effort. Look up Team Total Defense...the Patriots are 32nd, the Packers are 31st, the saints are 26th, its the quarterbacks that are carrying those teams!!! Heck the Colts are 27th, everyone knows it was P. Manning carrying them for years, now that he wasnt playing it shows even more. My point is is that great/elite/top echelon qb's can carry mediocre defense's. Think about this scenario...Brady and Flacco switch teams...now you tell me which team would have the better season?

The Ravens defense was only medeocure for one year and that was last year.

You said:
"This is where you start to look dumb. You want Flacco to throw the ball more and get more yards, but you want to abandon the run game? I don't care who the weapons are. Flacco got it done with Mason and Heap as his only viable targets. The Lions have NO run game. That's why Stafford throws so much. You think that Rice is just a system back? How is that possible when the team was a power run team his first two years and then a zone run team his third year, and he still puts up the same types of yards year in and year out?"

Huh? I never said anything about abandoning the run!? And for you to say Flacco got it done with Mason and Heap, is laughable in of it self...Mason has been on 3 teams within the past 8 months, Heap has played maybe 4 games this year. Im so glad Newsome drafted T. smith and Pitta to replace those two. If it were up to you, you would still have Mason and Heap on the roster, lol! And for that Lions comment above...sorry to break your bubble buddy, but this is a throwing league. This isnt the 50's and 60's where you can run Power I and Wing T and run the ball all day(e.g. Jim Brown) and win championships. Championships now-a-days are won by quarterbacks, the running game is just a complete to them, and of course you need a decent defense as well.
[/quote]

Didnt you say you want flacco throwing for more yards? How would that happen unless the team stopped running the ball as much? Are you saying that Flacco should only take deeper shots downfield to increase his total yardage? Then what about defenses staying deeper? Would he complete those passes?

My point about Mason and Heap was this. He got wins and playoff appearances with Mason, Heap, and Rice as his only two targets in the passing game. None of them could stretch the field and he still won games and put up decent yardage. You think Flacco sucks, well let's ask this question. How is it that Flacco got the most out of Heap and Mason and other qb's couldn't do the same?

You need to learn more about the game before speaking on things.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Mr. GM' timestamp='1325175307' post='925927']
Ravenslifer so you want a piece too huh, lol. I was trying to be nice and leave you out of this, but you if you must.

In response to your post above, about how Brady, Brees, Rodgers, [b]couldnt come into the AFC North and put up the same numbers they do in their own division[/b]. I say they can because its already been proven...(here we go again)...Rodgers did it to the steelers in the super bowl...Rivers to the Ravens(Wk15)...Manning/Brady have been beating the fur off the Ravens the past 8 years!

And no you didnt answer my question of... What did the last eight Super Bowl Champions have in common at the QB position?
The answer is they are all Pro Bowl quarterbacks!

P. Manning made the pro bowl with only Wayne and Clark and a cast of no namers. Brady has done it years past with a cast of no namers(Im not talking about when he had Moss, so dont try to use that). Brees turned a no name group of receivers into a top group in the league(Henderson was average before Brees got there, Colston was a 7th round pick, Graham was an bball player, sproles was a 3rd stringer/3rd down back 4 years ago).

I do agree that the AFC NORTH has the best group of defenses out of the league. But that doesnt mean Brees, Rodgers, Brady wouldnt be able to make the pro bowl if playing in this division. Roethlisberger and Carson Palmer did it, so your view is flawed!
[/quote]

One game against one team means nothing. Hey, in that case, the Browns beat the Patriots last year. It means Tom Brady struggles against them and will lose every game against them for the rest of his career. Or how about this year - Brady beat the Bills like 10 straight times. They intercepted him 4 times in their win over the Patriots. One game one time means nothing. By that logic, we torched the Saints last year, so what does that mean about Drew Brees?

But that's not the point I made. I'm not talking about moving an entire team, just the quarterback. Pick Rodgers up and put him on the Browns. Does he put up the same numbers, without Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Swain, Finley. His receivers would be Massaquoi, Cribbs, Norwood, Little. His tight end would be Jordan Cameron. Of course if you moved one team to another place, all the great players would still be there. Brees, Brady, Rodgers, etc. are all great quarterbacks, but they are also surrounded by great offensive talent that has been drafted by GMs who knew what they were looking for, and that talent has been cultivated. Until Torrey Smith, Ozzie Newsome and this front office's biggest failure was finding talent at the wide receiver position. Finally, that talent seems to be in place. To come out and say you can just magically transport even a great quarterback from his team to another and expect success is just not feasible to me. The players are different, the offensive schemes are different. Rodgers coming here would go from a very good offensive system and coordinator to having Cam Cameron, Q, a gimpy Lee Evans, and a bunch of rookies. Part of the success of Rodgers and his receivers is that he was throwing to guys like Jennings and Driver for three years before he ever even started. Those guys have been in the system. He's been in the system for 6 seasons now. You can't just pick up a great player and transport him to a new team then magically expect him to succeed. Aside from throwing a lot more yards, Drew Brees put up similar numbers his first year in New Orleans to Joe's last year, 26 TDs and 11 INTs. He didn't crack 30 TDs until his 3rd year in New Orleans, because it takes time for any quarterback to build chemistry with his receivers. That's part of the reason why Brady's 2007 season is so freakishly amazing - he managed to do it with three guys he'd never thrown to before.

And no, those guys couldn't put up the same numbers here. The defenses in this division are much better. Do you know what Shaub did against us last year? 50 percent completion percentage, 3 TDs, 2 picks. Tom Brady 1 TD, 2 picks. Peyton Manning 2009, 1 TD 2 picks. This is a division full of tough passing defenses. To assume you could just pick up a player and put him somewhere else and expect results doesn't work - see Nnamdi Asomoghua this year. Perhaps after a season or two they would adjust, but I completely disagree that they would put up the same numbers if transplanted by themselves to a team like the Browns. Football doesn't work that way. Great players are helped by great teams around them, and great coaching around them. If Brady came here, and had to throw all of the deep passes Joe does, he couldn't. His stats over his career bear that out. He's not a great deep ball thrower. If Aaron Rodgers had to do it, he'd struggle. He has good arm strength, but throwing the deep ball is not a staple of his game. They wouldn't succeed very well in the Air Coryell system - the only quarterback in the league who does is Philip Rivers.

Just look at what Matt Ryan did last year. He played terribly against the Pittsburgh Steelers. With Roddy White and the greatest tight end in NFL history he couldn't even get his team 10 points. All of these quarterbacks would put up worse numbers, because they'd be playing tougher defenses.

What I am sick and tired of is people playing armchair GM and trying to say "Hey, Flacco has gotten worse this year, he sucks, let's dump him". Lots of qbs have down seasons, and lots of them go on to do great things. Brees is a great example. His first 2 years in the league his qb rating was below 80 Brady didn't have a qb rating above 90 until his 5th year in the league - Joe did it in his third. Does that mean their teams should have given up on Brees and Brady? The Chargers did, they gave up on Brees, and looking back it was the wrong move. Or maybe not. Brees would probably have struggled in the Air Coryell system SD runs, but Sean Peyton's system suits his skills greatly. Scheme and the type of opponents you play tremendously impact the numbers you can put up here.

Case in point, Carson Palmer. One season with over 30 TDs, in 2005. The Steelers weren't the Steelers then, and the Ravens went 6-10. Roethlisberger didn't even throw for 2500 yards that season. The defense was great, but he wasn't yet. The next year we got McNair and rose to the top - the Bengals couldn't compete. Carson and Ben are still the only qbs to have thrown over 30 TDs in this division, each has done it one time. When Ben puts up big numbers, his team generally loses. He has 21 TDs and 14 picks this year, hardly "elite" numbers, but that that mean he's not elite? Does that mean he couldn't put up better numbers in another division?

[jj2020]

[quote name='frezeal33' timestamp='1324343461' post='914320']
I'm gonna completely disagree with this thread. You obviously have no faith. You never know what can happen. We aren't out of the superbowl run AT ALL.
[/quote]


Rite on brother we will go to the dance this year I will not talk down until we are out and we are in and looking pretty!! Yup Joe may not be "the guy" but hey neoither was Trend Dilfer"
Yup Ray is getting a little older but that why he has 10 other guys out their to help. Hell I could do if you gave me Suggs, Nagta, Webb and Reed to name a few to help out.
I can go mon for day, alls I know is I have been a RAVENS fan since 1996 thick and thin and as a fan I belive you back up your team and never count them out till they are out.

[frezeal33]

[quote name='jj2020' timestamp='1325275080' post='927003']


Rite on brother we will go to the dance this year I will not talk down until we are out and we are in and looking pretty!! Yup Joe may not be "the guy" but hey neoither was Trend Dilfer"
Yup Ray is getting a little older but that why he has 10 other guys out their to help. Hell I could do if you gave me Suggs, Nagta, Webb and Reed to name a few to help out.
I can go mon for day, alls I know is I have been a RAVENS fan since 1996 thick and thin and as a fan I belive you back up your team and never count them out till they are out.
[/quote]
That's right! At least someone is positive! I agree with everything you just said!

I haven't been one since 96' but I have since about 07-08' (I'm only 13 haha).

I will always love the Ravens no matter what happens, and on Sunday, I'm gonna be rooting for us and rooting for the Bills as well! Hopefully we'll beat the Bengals, the Steelers will lose to the Browns, and the Bills will beat the Patriots.

Let's go home-field advantage! GO RAVENS!

[mackers]

Cam Cameron has got to go.I believe Flacco could be an elite QB.Cam is not the right coach for him or this team period. The only other problem I see is we made a big mistake signing Lee Evans. He reminds me of Roy Williams or Braylan Edwards. Just ge me da check that is all I care about. Or as usual Cam doesn't know how to use him.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='mackers' timestamp='1325282691' post='927124']
Cam Cameron has got to go.I believe Flacco could be an elite QB.Cam is not the right coach for him or this team period. The only other problem I see is we made a big mistake signing Lee Evans. He reminds me of Roy Williams or Braylan Edwards. Just ge me da check that is all I care about. Or as usual Cam doesn't know how to use him.
[/quote]
Unlike Roy Williams or Braylon Edwards, Evans has been a consistent target in the NFL for many years and is not a complete moron.