Wr And Passing Game...

[PaintinPGPurple]

Too bad James Hardy didn't materialize into anything.

[Yatagarasu]

Every year we always criticized our WRs being all sorts of things!

2008 - Flacco is a rookie... Derrick Mason needs help... Mark Clayton is too inconsistent...
2009 - Flacco is only in his 2nd year... Derrick Mason needs help... Mark Clayton is still too inconsistent
2010 - Flacco needs speedy WRs because Anquan Boldin, Derrick Mason, and T.J. Houshmazdeh are too slow.
2011 - Flacco is regressing, Anquan Boldin is not a #1 WR anymore, Torrey Smith is a rookie, Lee Evans is injured

All these excuses...
Maybe this draft, we should grow some balls and draft Michael Floyd and see if this can cure all the excuses!

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1324320748' post='913640']

Wanting to get rid of Q is moronic. Part of his disappearing acts is play-calling and Joe not always getting the ball to him. He's also dropped his fair share of balls. But I don't think teams double him nearly as much as we like to believe. He's still a good WR but struggles against good CBs, even in single coverage.
[/quote]

No one is saying we want to get rid of Q. However, we are saying that their is a hole in this offense that he cannot fill. Boldin isn't a number one receiver type of guy. If anything he is the one who benefits most from having one because having one lets you put Q in the slot with 1 on 1 coverage. The reason our receivers can't get separation is because we do not have a number one who can hurt you even when he is covered. We dont have a guy who can command double coverage.

Another person made a point of playing doss. Stop it. If doss had the potential to start he would be. The coaching staff is not dumb. The reason doss isn't starting is because the coaching staff notices flaws in his play during practice and as a result don't start him. Do you really think he will be better than our top 3 right now (boldin, smith, evans)? Again, not taking a shot at doss but he isnt a number one. There is a reason we started Torrey smith and laquan williams over him. Imo a number one is big fast physical guy who cannot only keep defenses honest, but will go up and fight for the ball. The reason the chargers beat us last night is because they destroyed our corners with size and speed. Vincent Jackson and Floyd are both 6ft 5 and both are physical receivers and are hard for opposing corners to deal with.

Finally, Id love to get Floyd from the draft. Really I would. But doing that poses a big problem. First I dont expect him to fall to the 20's just because of the talent that he is. Yes it happened with smith, but i dont see it happening with Floyd. 2nd even if he does fall to our range, trading up is probably gonna require a lot. I'm not willing to give up any picks in next years draft in addition to our first to get him. There already appears to be way too much talent in next years draft with everyone returning to school for one more year. If there ever was a draft where we were gonna find replacements for Lewis/Reed etc... that will be it. I want to trade most of our draft this year for 1st rounders next year because of that talent shaping up in that draft class. Trading up for Floyd weakens our team more than helps it im afraid in this case.

An outside possibility. Now maybe this isnt possible but maybe it is. Should Ray retire and we release some players creating cap space perhaps we can go out and sign desean jackson. While we have a speedster in Torrey, Desean Jackson will allow us change the offense into a speed style one. Jackson and smith can easily get separation, and perhaps one of them could even command double coverage with their speed. This will open up the middle for either boldin or our tight ends.

[RavensAllTheWay]

I think everyone deserves a chunk of the blame, but saying we don't have any playmakers outside of Torrey, Ray and the TEs is just baloney. We only have FOUR playmakers on offense? Some teams have less.

[Bltravens]

What we need to do is utilize more motion for Boldin coming into the slot from the outside. Boldin is a guy you actually have to scheme to get the ball to, designing specific plays to draw him open. You cant just rely on Boldin running deep posts and 9 routes and him getting open. And why the hell doesn't Boldin get the ball on WR screens? Its like an automatic 5 yards at worst.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='Corvus Amplus' timestamp='1324326741' post='913808']
Every year we always criticized our WRs being all sorts of things!

2008 - Flacco is a rookie... Derrick Mason needs help... Mark Clayton is too inconsistent...
2009 - Flacco is only in his 2nd year... Derrick Mason needs help... Mark Clayton is still too inconsistent
2010 - Flacco needs speedy WRs because Anquan Boldin, Derrick Mason, and T.J. Houshmazdeh are too slow.
2011 - Flacco is regressing, Anquan Boldin is not a #1 WR anymore, Torrey Smith is a rookie, Lee Evans is injured

[b]All these excuses...[/b]
Maybe this draft, we should grow some balls and draft Michael Floyd and see if this can cure all the excuses!
[/quote]
Excuses for what?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1324327056' post='913817']s
[b]No one is saying we want to get rid of Q. However, we are saying that their is a hole in this offense that he cannot fill. Boldin isn't a number one receiver type of guy. If anything he is the one who benefits most from having one because having one lets you put Q in the slot with 1 on 1 coverage. The reason our receivers can't get separation is because we do not have a number one who can hurt you even when he is covered. We dont have a guy who can command double coverage.[/b]

Another person made a point of playing doss. Stop it. If doss had the potential to start he would be. The coaching staff is not dumb. The reason doss isn't starting is because the coaching staff notices flaws in his play during practice and as a result don't start him. Do you really think he will be better than our top 3 right now (boldin, smith, evans)? Again, not taking a shot at doss but he isnt a number one. There is a reason we started Torrey smith and laquan williams over him. Imo a number one is big fast physical guy who cannot only keep defenses honest, but will go up and fight for the ball. The reason the chargers beat us last night is because they destroyed our corners with size and speed. Vincent Jackson and Floyd are both 6ft 5 and both are physical receivers and are hard for opposing corners to deal with.

Finally, Id love to get Floyd from the draft. Really I would. But doing that poses a big problem. First I dont expect him to fall to the 20's just because of the talent that he is. Yes it happened with smith, but i dont see it happening with Floyd. 2nd even if he does fall to our range, trading up is probably gonna require a lot. I'm not willing to give up any picks in next years draft in addition to our first to get him. There already appears to be way too much talent in next years draft with everyone returning to school for one more year. If there ever was a draft where we were gonna find replacements for Lewis/Reed etc... that will be it. I want to trade most of our draft this year for 1st rounders next year because of that talent shaping up in that draft class. Trading up for Floyd weakens our team more than helps it im afraid in this case.

[b]An outside possibility. Now maybe this isnt possible but maybe it is. Should Ray retire and we release some players creating cap space perhaps we can go out and sign desean jackson. While we have a speedster in Torrey, Desean Jackson will allow us change the offense into a speed style one. Jackson and smith can easily get separation, and perhaps one of them could even command double coverage with their speed. This will open up the middle for either boldin or our tight ends.[/b]
[/quote]

I never said people wanted to get rid of Boldin. I was just responding to the first sentence in another post.

I'm well-aware Q isn't a true go-to target anymore. But I wouldn't chalk up him and the others WRs not getting open just to the lack of a bona fide top WR. If Megatron was on this team, Q wouldn't suddenly start separating more. He'd have more favorable match-ups, but he'd still have to beat the CBs and even when he wasn't wide open, Joe would have trust him more.

Jackson isn't the answer. He's been in the league four years and is no more versatile as a WR than Torrey.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='RavensAllTheWay' timestamp='1324327429' post='913828']
I think everyone deserves a chunk of the blame, but saying we don't have any playmakers outside of Torrey, Ray and the TEs is just baloney. We only have FOUR playmakers on offense? Some teams have less.
[/quote]

How is it baloney? Boldin has crossed the century mark in receiving yards the same amount of times as Torrey, caught four less TDs, has a comparable amount of drops, and caught three balls or less six times this season. To me, those aren't play-making numbers. It's not all on him but he's deserves blame.

Evans obviously hasn't been a play-maker.

Rice and Torrey obviously have and Dickson and Pitta are capable of creating mismatches.

[RavensAllTheWay]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1324327987' post='913849']

How is it baloney? Boldin has crossed the century mark in receiving yards the same amount of times as Torrey, caught four less TDs, has a comparable amount of drops, and caught three balls or less six times this season. To me, those aren't play-making numbers. It's not all on him but he's deserves blame.

Evans obviously hasn't been a play-maker.

Rice and Torrey obviously have and Dickson and Pitta are capable of creating mismatches.
[/quote]
I just think it's silly to say "this guy, this guy and these guys are our only playmakers on offense."

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1324327609' post='913834']

I never said people wanted to get rid of Boldin. I was just responding to the first sentence in another post.

I'm well-aware Q isn't a true go-to target anymore. But I wouldn't chalk up him and the others WRs not getting open just to the lack of a bona fide top WR. If Megatron was on this team, Q wouldn't suddenly start separating more. He'd have more favorable match-ups, but he'd still have to beat the CBs and even when he wasn't wide open, Joe would have trust him more.

Jackson isn't the answer. He's been in the league four years and is no more versatile as a WR than Torrey.
[/quote]

I actually disagree with you saying that if Megatron were on the team that Q wouldnt start getting open more. You explained it well in your post in that he'd have more favorable matchups. Favorable matchups make a difference. Your right in that Q won't get separation every time, but Q will get separation more often and that makes him a threat. I mean we saw what happened when he was paired with Larry Fitzgerald. You could either defend one or the other not both.

Jackson himself isn't the answer, but like I explained in my previous post, him and torrey just may be the answer together. Look at the eagles offense and their receivers especially. Fast young guys that can easily get separation. With that offense, when it clicks it creates high scoring games. If you have fast guys that can get separation like smith and jackson and an excellent route runner that can make tough catches Q, you're dangerous in every aspect of the offense.

[Marc2k6]

How many different groups of WR's have you heard this same complaint about for the Ravens ? We are on the 4th different set of WR's, the only constant has been Joe Flacco and Cam.

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1324328188' post='913861']

I actually disagree with you saying that if Megatron were on the team that Q wouldnt start getting open more. You explained it well in your post in that he'd have more favorable matchups. Favorable matchups make a difference. Your right in that Q won't get separation every time, but Q will get separation more often and that makes him a threat. I mean we saw what happened when he was paired with Larry Fitzgerald. You could either defend one or the other not both.

Jackson himself isn't the answer, but like I explained in my previous post, him and torrey just may be the answer together. Look at the eagles offense and their receivers especially. Fast young guys that can easily get separation. With that offense, when it clicks it creates high scoring games. If you have fast guys that can get separation like smith and jackson and an excellent route runner that can make tough catches Q, you're dangerous in every aspect of the offense.
[/quote]
im assuming your talking about Djax? i dont know it hes man enough for our division lol. Naw seriously, maybe a bit to small, but i would love the speed, Vjax of chargers is also in a contract year, i would rather have him and torrey, offer different threats

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Sizzlebshu' timestamp='1324328188' post='913861']
I actually disagree with you saying that if Megatron were on the team that Q wouldnt start getting open more. You explained it well in your post in that he'd have more favorable matchups. Favorable matchups make a difference. Your right in that Q won't get separation every time, but Q will get separation more often and that makes him a threat. I mean we saw what happened when he was paired with Larry Fitzgerald. You could either defend one or the other not both.

Jackson himself isn't the answer, but like I explained in my previous post, him and torrey just may be the answer together. Look at the eagles offense and their receivers especially. Fast young guys that can easily get separation. With that offense, when it clicks it creates high scoring games. If you have fast guys that can get separation like smith and jackson and an excellent route runner that can make tough catches Q, you're dangerous in every aspect of the offense.
[/quote]

The Boldin that played with Fitzgerald was more explosive than the one here. And when Warner was there, he had a better QB throwing to him than he does now. Even if he was facing less defensive attention or seeing lesser CBs, Q isn't the same player. At times, Joe has missed him or not tried throwing him open, Boldin himself has dropped an uncharacteristic amount of passes this season, but really, he just isn't the same player.

It's possible, but I'm not convinced that even paired with Torrey he'd be the answer.

[marylandmike12]

ray rice still didnt have alot of touches

thats why the safetys wher playing deep

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1324329474' post='913908'] im assuming your talking about Djax? i dont know it hes man enough for our division lol. Naw seriously, maybe a bit to small, but i would love the speed, Vjax of chargers is also in a contract year, i would rather have him and torrey, offer different threats[/quote]

While he may be small he's fast and relatively tough. + he is much younger than V jax. For a one year run id rather have v jax but all things considered D jax has more bang for your buck. Only thing that concerns me are the dumb penalties he gets for excessive celebration and unsportsman like conduct. I doubt Ozzie would even consider it, but then again we did make a move for Owens so who knows? I wonder if we will even have cap space to sign him with Grubbs, Flacco, and Rice needing to be payed within the next 2 years. Altho I think with the freed cap space before it could be done.

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1324329545' post='913913'] The Boldin that played with Fitzgerald was more explosive than the one here. And when Warner was there, he had a better QB throwing to him than he does now. Even if he was facing less defensive attention or seeing lesser CBs, Q isn't the same player. At times, Joe has missed him or not tried throwing him open, Boldin himself has dropped an uncharacteristic amount of passes this season, but really, he just isn't the same player. It's possible, but I'm not convinced that even paired with Torrey he'd be the answer.[/quote]

Again youre right but you have to remember this is an uncharacteristic season in general. Youre right that we will need a boldin replacement but having d jax and smith race each other downfield bodes well for boldin/his eventual replacement and our very athletically gifted tight ends.

On another note having d jax paired with smith would help open the running lanes too as they will always be a threat downfield. I kno we have a similar situation with evans and smith, but give smith another year to develop some hands and pair him with d jax and if the safeties arent playing deep there will be long bombs. Also the playaction becomes insane with a move like this

[quote name='marylandmike12' timestamp='1324329719' post='913916']ray rice still didnt have alot of touches thats why the safetys wher playing deep[/quote]

safeties were playing deep because we got outscored early. A time consuming TD drive woulda been okay for them if we ran the whole way and used up 5-8 mins

[ravens rule]

Fromer Wr Derick mason says he trusts Flacco over Sanchez in the playoffs. I have a feeling that he will play really good in the post season. [url="http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-around-the-league/09000d5d82536e9d/Derrick-Mason-knows-QBs?module=HP11_cp"]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-around-the-league/09000d5d82536e9d/Derrick-Mason-knows-QBs?module=HP11_cp[/url]

[arnie_uk]

bring back d mase for the comeback routes

[edreedfromtheu]

[quote name='PaintinPGPurple' timestamp='1324269343' post='912268']
Is it me or does it seem like outside or Torrey, Ray Rice and the TEs, we have no playmakers in the passing game? It seems like Q just vanishes for long stretches and Lee Evans does nothing. Is it time for another reciever in the draft or free agency? Is it that Q is not getting separation or that Flacco is afraid to force balls into tight spaces? I'm outta answers at this point.
[/quote]

You just named 4 people, then wonder if we have enough playmakers? That a lot more than most teams have! Look at New England... they definitely don't have a scary RB on their roster. They have two tight ends, and tiny little Wes Welker.

You can change the receivers all you want. The one common factor that remains is still going to be the quarterback. The receivers can't produce if the quarterback isn't playing good.

[Token]

[quote name='PeRK82' timestamp='1324319775' post='913615']
I cant believe im hearing this, you guys want to get rid of Boldin. Have you noticed that he makes plays early then disappears, maybe because they are D.Teaming him or just playing harder coverage (hard to tell when you cant see the whole field on tv) because they see what he does to other teams on game film.


If this was 300 , I would be kicking someone down the giant black hole right now,lol
[/quote]

I don't want to get rid of him, I just want Floyd.

[Sizzlebshu]

[quote name='edreedfromtheu' timestamp='1324345865' post='914428']
You just named 4 people, then wonder if we have enough playmakers? That a lot more than most teams have! Look at New England... they definitely don't have a scary RB on their roster. They have two tight ends, and tiny little Wes Welker.

You can change the receivers all you want. The one common factor that remains is still going to be the quarterback. The receivers can't produce if the quarterback isn't playing good.
[/quote]

And the quarterback can't produce if the gameplan sucks and he is forced to make a bad decision in order to try and make a play. Why do you think Brady performs so well so consistently. Its because the gameplan is built around his strengths. If you look at the patriots offense, the one thing that stands out is efficiency. Its quick short routes that add up and create long drives. Brady is a pinpoint passer and this type of efficient offense plays to his strength. Cameron needs to be doing the same here or we should be looking for a better coordinator.

Still though fact is we dont have a true number one receiver that commands coverage. If we had that, then we could get by with this subpar coordinator. If we got rid of him and had this, then i have no doubt this offense will take it to a level we have never seen before.

[Purple Punishment]

[quote name='AgBowler' timestamp='1324313812' post='913408']this is my take on the offensive passing game. first of all i am extremely pleased with torrey smith the te's and ray rice but outside of that like stated previously we are anemic. i personally think it all revolves around the play calling and ive been saying it since cam came into his position as the oc. when we try to pass the ball we are constantly running routes that have to develop 10-15 yards down the field and the way the pass rush has evolved in the last couple years you have absolutely no shot at making these completions.[b] look how comfortable joe is when he knows a slant or a drag is coming across the field 3-5 steps and the ball is gone.[/b] when he has to wait for their routes to develop is when he stands there and hops around like a [profanity deleted] and gets sacked. our offense is not very creative at all boldin and smith are always lined up outside and our te's are always lined up next to the tackles its very easy for defenses to defend that. cam has to go bottom line end of story. i vote more drags more slants more quick passes and the occasional vertical pass to smith.[/quote]

Agreed, which is why we should have a West Coast style implemented. Air Coryell requires the personnel we do not have or do not use properly.

[Jerseyraven52205527]

Worst wide receiving corp in NFL hands down.

[1/28/01]

[quote name='Jerseyraven52205527' timestamp='1324729112' post='919877']
Worst wide receiving corp in NFL hands down.
[/quote]
Not even close. We're not a top WR corps by any means, but "worst.....hand down"? Hahahaha!

[KBoum]

I'll tell you why : Air Corryell Offense...

When you have an offensive line that can't block Speed Rushers you won't be able to stretch the field and install players in the window in the middle. It takes too long to develop.

Thats why the Ravens should use the West Coast offense and thats what Joe Zorn wanted. But Cam Cameron doesn'T want to adapt so we play our players in the system in staid of using the system with the players we have (what the Patriots do). THey have Welker, 2 TEs... they use quick passes from everywhere. They had Moss : they used him.

[The Raven]

[quote name='KBoum' timestamp='1324734163' post='919905']
I'll tell you why : Air Corryell Offense...

When you have an [s]offensive line[/s] [u][b]left tackle[/b][/u] that can't block Speed Rushers you won't be able to stretch the field and install players in the window in the middle. It takes too long to develop.

Thats why the Ravens should use the West Coast offense and thats what Joe Zorn wanted. But Cam Cameron doesn'T want to adapt so we play our players in the system in staid of using the system with the players we have (what the Patriots do). THey have Welker, 2 TEs... they use quick passes from everywhere. They had Moss : they used him.
[/quote]

Haha. Aside from McKinnie and occasionally Oher, our line does exceptionally well in pass protection.

Agreed on all else. Boldin would kill in a west coast. I don't know how Torrey would do, as his strength is the deep ball, but I'm sure that speed can get some YAC's too. Can we steal Zorn from Kansas City? A little off topic but I wouldn't mind Wilbert Montgomery, our RB coach getting a promotion. We seem to like to find in-house answers at coordinator.

[PaintinPGPurple]

West coast wouldnt work here. Joes release isnt quick enough. We need the Perkins spread offense that N.O./N.E. use with their uber athletic tight ends and dink and dunk passing. We have the personnel already. Either that or stick with the Coryell, but Norv Turners version instead of Cam Camerons.

[PaintinPGPurple]

Bump. Where are the ppl who said we'd be fine with Torrey, the TEs and Lee Evans?

[arnie_uk]

[quote name='PaintinPGPurple' timestamp='1324761092' post='921317']
Bump. Where are the ppl who said we'd be fine with Torrey, the TEs and Lee Evans?
[/quote]
who said that?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='PaintinPGPurple' timestamp='1324746235' post='919955']
West coast wouldnt work here. Joes release isnt quick enough. We need the Perkins spread offense that N.O./N.E. use with their uber athletic tight ends and dink and dunk passing. We have the personnel already. [b]Either that or stick with the Coryell, but Norv Turners version instead of Cam Camerons.[/b]
[/quote]

How are they different really? I'm pretty sure Flacco and River have been among the league leaders in going deep the past few years. And the RBs on both offence get a lot of work in the passing game.

[PaintinPGPurple]

[quote name='arnie_uk' timestamp='1324761356' post='921332']

who said that?
[/quote]

In the Randy Moss thread.