Ravens Shooting Selves In Foot With Shotgun ?

[BenDufusberger]

In a blog post with a title similar to that above , Thyrl Nelson at wnst.net breaks down some stats on late comeback victories by NFL teams this year , and how much the winning teams relied on the shotgun and/or heavy concentration on passing to secure the victory. I broke down only those ten games where the teams were down at halftime or in the 3rd qtr. , and calculated these averages and ranges :

Average points behind : 16.5 ( range : 10-24 )

Average % of snaps in shotgun : 42 ( range : 17-73 )

Average % of plays that were passes : 54 ( range : 46-73 )


Now , compare these figures to what the Ravens did in Seattle :

Points behind ( 2.5 min. into the 3rd qtr ) : 15

% of snaps in shotgun : 87.1

% of plays that were passes : 89.7

I think the comeback victory data pretty much blows up the argument that when you're down like the Ravens were that you have to go pass-crazy. The Ravens used the shotgun and pass attack not only much more heavily than the average of the other 10 games summarized above , but they used them more than in any single game of the ten. And they lost.

More detail is at the site , including giving credit for the shotgun bringing the Ravens back in the game against Arizona , though he notes that we ran a further 10 running plays in the 2nd half of that game.

[url="http://wnst.net/wordpress/blog/2011/11/14/ravens-shooting-themselves-in-the-foot-with-shotgun-happy-offense/"]http://wnst.net/word...-happy-offense/[/url]

[ryanpatt28]

yeah for some reason cam camron thinks were the packers

[Tank 92]

[quote name='BenDufusberger' timestamp='1321397370' post='872808']
In a blog post with a title similar to that above , Thyrl Nelson at wnst.net breaks down some stats on late comeback victories by NFL teams this year , and how much the winning teams relied on the shotgun and/or heavy concentration on passing to secure the victory. I broke down only those ten games where the teams were down at halftime or in the 3rd qtr. , and calculated these averages and ranges :

Average points behind : 16.5 ( range : 10-24 )

Average % of snaps in shotgun : 42 ( range : 17-73 )

Average % of plays that were passes : 54 ( range : 46-73 )


Now , compare these figures to what the Ravens did in Seattle :

Points behind ( 2.5 min. into the 3rd qtr ) : 15

% of snaps in shotgun : 87.1

% of plays that were passes : 89.7

I think the comeback victory data pretty much blows up the argument that when you're down like the Ravens were that you have to go pass-crazy. The Ravens used the shotgun and pass attack not only much more heavily than the average of the other 10 games summarized above , but they used them more than in any single game of the ten. And they lost.

More detail is at the site , including giving credit for the shotgun bringing the Ravens back in the game against Arizona , though he notes that we ran a further 10 running plays in the 2nd half of that game.

[url="http://wnst.net/wordpress/blog/2011/11/14/ravens-shooting-themselves-in-the-foot-with-shotgun-happy-offense/"]http://wnst.net/word...-happy-offense/[/url]
[/quote]


I think Joe, and the O as a whole, definately picks up a rhythm much easier when in the shotgun. Why we don't run more out the gun is a mystery to me. We need to be more inventive and unpredictable no matter the formation.

[Ray Ray Ravens]

[quote name='ryanpatt28' timestamp='1321397730' post='872816']
yeah for some reason cam camron thinks were the packers
[/quote]
The Packers run the ball about 45 percent of the time. Where do people come up with this Packers only pass thing is beyond me. Thats why Rodgers can make plays because they are balanced and hes not forced to be one dimensional.

[BenDufusberger]

[quote name='ryanpatt28' timestamp='1321397730' post='872816']
yeah for some reason cam camron thinks were the packers
[/quote]

It's even worse than that. Even the Packers were less pass-happy than the Ravens in their comeback victory against the Falcons , as shown in Nelson's summary below. And that's with Superman at QB.


[size=5][font=Times New Roman]In Week 5 the Packers trailed the Falcons 14-0 in Atlanta at 12:26 of the 2[sup]nd[/sup] quarter. From there: [/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]28 shotgun snaps; 25 passes and 3 runs[/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]24 snaps under center; 12 passes and 12 runs[/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]% of snaps in shotgun – 53.8[/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]% of passes to runs – 71.1[/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]Packers win 25-14[/font][/size]

[chesapeakeaviator]

You're never going to get WR separation with that pass happy of an offense. The Packers have brilliant play calling and that's just one of the reasons they make it work.

The Seahawk secondary and linebackers never even have to THINK about playing the run. Seattle just let us take 12-yard gainers the few times we actually did rn! And I thought--ok. Maybe there's something to what Cam was thinking. Now we're going to hit them with Ray, get a few big runs, force them out of their game, and then start picking them apart. TWO RUNS AND THEN WE NEVER RAN AGAIN!!! what the heck?!??!

[The Raven]

[quote name='Ray Ray Ravens' timestamp='1321398238' post='872832']
The Packers run the ball about 45 percent of the time. Where do people come up with this Packers only pass thing is beyond me. Thats why Rodgers can make plays because they are balanced and hes not forced to be one dimensional.
[/quote]

I agree, but thats not necesarily his point. His point is really that Cam's is trying to make this offense a competent passing offense when it simply isn't at this point. We are still a run first team, but our OC insists on throwing the ball more. Cam has made the offense one-dimensional. He thinks that we can chuck the ball downfield like the Packers [i]can[/i].

[Ray Ray Ravens]

Competent passing offenses have a rushing attack to go along with it. If the Packers aired it out all day I believe they wouldnt have the success they have now. They are balanced so for him to to say Cam thinks we are the Packers insinuates that all they do is pass like we have been which is altogether a untrue statement in the first place was my point.

[Ray Ray Ravens]

Cam Cameron thinks we are the Patriots would be closer to true.

[scrock]

haha, a week ago the Shotgun was saving us, everyone loved it and wanted them to use it more

...what's killing us in the past few weeks is getting down early, not running the ball very well or at all, dropping balls

and this past game fumbling on special teams and missing Field Goals

[ryanpatt28]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1321398709' post='872839']

I agree, but thats not necesarily his point. His point is really that Cam's is trying to make this offense a competent passing offense when it simply isn't at this point. We are still a run first team, but our OC insists on throwing the ball more. Cam has made the offense one-dimensional. He thinks that we can chuck the ball downfield like the Packers [i]can[/i].
[/quote]


lol yeah my point was all of a sudden were a pass happy team...since i been watching this team we were a physical smash mouth team not anymore on sunday we looked like a soft offense and the seahawks smash mouthed us and looked like the old ravens this coaching staff is absolutely awful and ppl use the playoffs 3 years in a row as an argument...with the talent this team has a high school coach would make the playoffs

[Tank 92]

[quote name='BenDufusberger' timestamp='1321398269' post='872833']

It's even worse than that. Even the Packers were less pass-happy than the Ravens in their comeback victory against the Falcons , as shown in Nelson's summary below. And that's with Superman at QB.


[size=5][font=Times New Roman]In Week 5 the Packers trailed the Falcons 14-0 in Atlanta at 12:26 of the 2[sup]nd[/sup] quarter. From there: [/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]28 shotgun snaps; 25 passes and 3 runs[/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]24 snaps under center; 12 passes and 12 runs[/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]% of snaps in shotgun – 53.8[/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]% of passes to runs – 71.1[/font][/size]
[size=5][font=Times New Roman]Packers win 25-14[/font][/size]
[/quote]


Their effective passing sets up the run and vice versa. It doesn't hurt that they have a great receiving corps as a whole which occupies the DBs effectively to open up space behind the line. I think we are headed there, just need someone with half a brain to figure out the schemes. And we need Evans or a reasonable facsimilie.

[ryanpatt28]

[quote name='Ray Ray Ravens' timestamp='1321399070' post='872851']
Cam Cameron thinks we are the Patriots would be closer to true.
[/quote]

yeah i should of said the pats or the saints lol my bad but my point was we went from a physical smash mouth team to a soft pass happy team whats the point of picking up the best fullback in the league if were gunna run the ball 5 times and please dont say ''oh well we had to throw it to get back in the game'' we were only down 10 points when we stopped running

[BenDufusberger]

BTW , Nelson finishes off his post with this :

[size=4][font=Times New Roman]"Looking for evidence of teams playing themselves out of games by going shotgun crazy? There are far too many to list. Start with any close loss by the Lions, Cowboys, Eagles or Bears."[/font][/size]

[size=4][font=Times New Roman]I haven't looked into this yet , but I'd add the Ravens to his list.[/font][/size]

[The Raven]

[quote name='Ray Ray Ravens' timestamp='1321398994' post='872850']
Competent passing offenses have a rushing attack to go along with it. If the Packers aired it out all day I believe they wouldnt have the success they have now. They are balanced so for him to to say Cam thinks we are the Packers insinuates that all they do is pass like we have been which is altogether a untrue statement in the first place was my point.
[/quote]

I don't think thats what it insinuates at all. I inferred that it meant that Cam thinks we [i]can[/i] throw the ball like the Packers [i]can[/i]. And thats why we throw the ball so much. But it can be interpreted differently.

[The Raven]

[quote name='ryanpatt28' timestamp='1321399321' post='872860']

yeah i should of said the pats or the saints lol my bad but my point was we went from a physical smash mouth team to a soft pass happy team whats the point of picking up the best fullback in the league if were gunna run the ball 5 times and please dont say ''oh well we had to throw it to get back in the game'' [b]we were only down 10 points when we stopped running[/b]
[/quote]


Not only that but we were also still in the 1st or 2nd quarter.

[Ray Ray Ravens]

[quote name='ryanpatt28' timestamp='1321399106' post='872854']


lol yeah my point was all of a sudden were a pass happy team...
[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1321399550' post='872868']

I don't think thats what it insinuates at all. I inferred that it meant that Cam thinks we [i]can[/i] throw the ball like the Packers [i]can[/i]. And thats why we throw the ball so much. But it can be interpreted differently.
[/quote]
Maybe he cleared it up for you for me.
[/quote]

[ryanpatt28]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1321399622' post='872870']


Not only that but we were also still in the 1st or 2nd quarter.
[/quote]

yupp pathetic coaching and the worst part about it is harbaugh didnt say we should of ran the ball more in his press conference he made some wack excuse about the way the defense was playing us ughhh it makes me so mad how he never ever ever admits when he messes up

[The Raven]

[quote name='ryanpatt28' timestamp='1321399841' post='872879']

yupp pathetic coaching and the worst part about it is harbaugh didnt say we should of ran the ball more in his press conference he made some wack excuse about the way the defense was playing us ughhh it makes me so mad how he never ever ever admits when he messes up
[/quote]

Yeah, that infuriated me when he said that. I think thats his way of not throwing his OC under the bus, which is at least respectable, but still frustrating.

[ryanpatt28]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1321399926' post='872880']

Yeah, that infuriated me when he said that. I think thats his way of not throwing his OC under the bus, which is at least respectable, but still frustrating.
[/quote]

remember the game vs the cardinals when flacco fumbled in the 1st quarter on our 20 ?? it was 2nd and 2 ray rice and ricky williams were abusing the cardinals they couldnt stop our running game for their lifes and what happened they called a throwing play and they sack fumbled flacco and it put us in a huge hole why did they call a throwing play on 2nd and 2 when they couldnt stop our running game ????

[CapoRocky]

Maybe we could package some decent players and draft picks and get Jackson from the Eagles?

[The Raven]

[quote name='ryanpatt28' timestamp='1321400132' post='872883']

remember the game vs the cardinals when flacco fumbled in the 1st quarter on our 20 ?? it was 2nd and 2 ray rice and ricky williams were abusing the cardinals they couldnt stop our running game for their lifes and what happened they called a throwing play and they sack fumbled flacco and it put us in a huge hole why did they call a throwing play on 2nd and 2 when they couldnt stop our running game ????
[/quote]

Its terrible. I just saw that the Patriots and the Packers have more rushing yards than us, just as two examples. Also, its not really worth much at this point, but Rice is on pace for just under 1000 rush yards this season. Just embarassing.

[ryanpatt28]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1321400453' post='872893']

Its terrible. I just saw that the Patriots and the Packers have more rushing yards than us, just as two examples. Also, its not really worth much at this point, but Rice is on pace for just under 1000 rush yards this season. Just embarassing.
[/quote]

ray rice is going to end up getting picked up in free agency watch

[CapoRocky]

Why did they sign Leech if Rice isn't going to rush for 20 times a game? Show him the money or he will bolt. Hopefully, Allen will be ready by next year.

[Ray Ray Ravens]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1321400453' post='872893']

Its terrible. I just saw that the Patriots and the Packers have more rushing yards than us, just as two examples. Also, its not really worth much at this point, but Rice is on pace for just under 1000 rush yards this season. Just embarassing.
[/quote]
Researched my research did ya? Kinda crazy to think these teams have us on rushing. Take a look at the Saints too. They are alot more balanced then believed. Running the ball about 45 percent of the time just like the Pack.

[The Raven]

[quote name='ryanpatt28' timestamp='1321400698' post='872896']

ray rice is going to end up getting picked up in free agency watch
[/quote]

I wouldn't go that far. But this is gonna help us in contract negotiations, if there is a bright side to this lackluster run game.

[ryanpatt28]

why would he want to stay hes one of the best players in the NFL and gets 5 carries

[Ray Ray Ravens]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1321400885' post='872902']

I wouldn't go that far. But this is gonna help us in contract negotiations, if there is a bright side to this lackluster run game.
[/quote]
I dont think this will help because if we dont pay him somebody else will because everyone knows hes not being utilized. Just because were not using him doesnt mean he wont be paid elsewhere.

[The Raven]

[quote name='CapoRocky' timestamp='1321400871' post='872900']
Why did they sign Leech if Rice isn't going to rush for 20 times a game? Show him the money or he will bolt. Hopefully, Allen will be ready by next year.
[/quote]

Well, as a RB, he probably could have been "ready" this season. Running backs have the easiest transition to the NFL than any other position.

[quote name='Ray Ray Ravens' timestamp='1321400880' post='872901']
Researched my research did ya? Kinda crazy to think these teams have us on rushing. Take a look at the Saints too. They are alot more balanced then believed. Running the ball about 45 percent of the time just like the Pack.
[/quote]

It's straight up horrid. We're also on pace for 60 or so less rushing attempts. Didn't Harbs and Cam say they wanted to improve the run game? Smh.

[The Raven]

[quote name='Ray Ray Ravens' timestamp='1321401104' post='872905']
I dont think this will help because if we dont pay him somebody else will because everyone knows hes not being utilized. Just because were not using him doesnt mean he wont be paid elsewhere.
[/quote]

Ehh. Just a theory I had. Maybe just trying to find some positive in this. But there really isn't.