Ray Rice

[wayne]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1320702116' post='859372']


I get that, but when Joe is lined up in the shotgun, with 3 WR, I don't think Rice being out there is fooling anyone!
[/quote]
Not so much bluffing them but having Rice back there, that takes one guy out of coverage. With Leach back there, you get better blocking but one more guy will be in coverage b/c no one fears Leach out the backfield.

[wayne]

[quote name='BenDufusberger' timestamp='1320706929' post='859509']
What bothered me more than the run totals was seeing that clip of Rice seemingly bailing out of the block on Harrison , leaving Joe exposed.

I hope he just misplayed the block. If he did it to save his own skin , that's not good.
[/quote]
Its nothing Rice could have done with Harrison coming full speed and leap frogging in the air like that. Only thing Rice could have done was committed early but whoever would have thought Harrison would have turned into Superman right there.

[The Raven]

[quote name='redrum52' timestamp='1320695461' post='859092']
Grubbs back combined with the running plays being called might have something to do with this. [b] I feel also should try more power running than zone schemes[/b]. We have the personnel I feel to over power many teams defensive fronts. Different topic but it also wouldn't hurt to try and draft a late round speed back next draft. We don't really have a back with great break away speed. I'm assuming Allen might take over for Williams in a year or two and would having to power backs tired out a defense then a speedy guy come in can really off set the opposition. Hold on, wasn't it also you Fly who tried to start the why doesn't RR get any blame movement? Also, to Flaccos credit, he himself made alot of plays last night.
[/quote]

Zone doesn't mean stretch. You can run a power running game with a zone blocking scheme. It's very simple. You can run inside zone, off tackle, etc...

But I get what you're saying. I'm frustrated with the seemingly endless stretch plays that go for no gain. Run to the inside!!! Run the inside zone! Run the Iso!!! When you have Yanda, Grubbs, and Leach I don't understand why you don't run inside more! Heck, Gurode wasn't a liability as far as the run game goes, thats not an escuse either. I'm tired of stretches. They work, but not when they get called every other run play. If we could get it going on the inside, which we've proven we can run it inside, that can really set up the stretch.

[Gordo52]

[quote name='jt3751' timestamp='1320701678' post='859352']

"Disgusted" is a little strong, but it was disturbing. Not sure what he was thinking. The way Harrison jumped, Ray could have wiped him out with minimal contact.

What do you think will be said when they look at [i][b]that[/b][/i] in the film room? I see Joe chasing Ray around the room like a younger brother looking for revenge! I bet they laugh it off and look for it not to happen again.
[/quote]
Ray just cant leave Joe like that lol. Especially vs the steelers. Harrison jumped like a spider monkey and almost got to him. The old Joe would have probably forced a throw and got it intercepted And why have rice stay in to block when he was to scared to? I would have been scared to block him also but atleast go for his legs or something when he jumped. Luckily Joe is so cool and it didnt matter. Thats the only thing I can honestly complain about. Also when Cary Williams was covering Wallace,he still did good but idk why Webb wasnt.

[Tiz]

Lol at people who ignore defenses stacking the line and this includes top defenses then turn around and complain about rice...

Pitt with a top front 7 brings troy p to help on run plays and evidently ray has a problem because 5 cannot block 8...tsk tsk

[PurpleCorsair]

That 2.4 YPC against Pit would've been much better if it weren't for that BS call...

[hawkprey]

We need to stop running behind Leach every run play. The defense knows wherever Leach is, Rice is right behind. Mix it up a little so the defense doesn't always know where Ray is going.

[jdynamite]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1320694287' post='859053']
All this happiness and joy is icky!!

I need something to complain about, so let's point some fingers, starting with Ray Rizzle.

Once AGAIN, we face a strong defense this season, and he puts up 2-something YPC.

I know, I know -- that holding call on the opening play was BS, and would have changed everything, right?
I dont think so...
first, it was a very close call; maybe it was maybe it wasn't a hold. But reality is, that play aside whether it was a hold or not, Rice did nothing to get the ground game going last night -- 2.4 YPC??

It seems to be a disturbing trend this season that when we face a tough defense, RR fails to get it going. Let's look at how he has done against the better defenses this season:

Week 1 - PIT
5.6 YPC

Week 2 - TEN
3.3 YPC

Week 4 - NYJ
2.6 YPC

Week 7 - JAX
3.5 YPC

Week 9 - PIT
2.4 YPC

Only one of those 5 games did he make an impact.

Even ARI held him to 3.5 YPC (however, running in 3 short TD's didnt help the YPC, and obviously we'll take points over yards any day).


On the season, RR is averaging 4.0 YPC, and as mediocre as that is, it would be MUCH lower if it weren't for the game against PIT and a 9 for 81 yards game @ STL (a defense who wont scare anyone).

For now, it's whatever -- but this needs to fix itself very soon. We're gearing up for a SB run and need that ground game to bring that extra dimension to our offense!
[/quote]

I don't have a problem with anything u said except this...... How many carries did he have in those games in question? I bet he never reached 20 carries....
Last night after that big run steelers clamped down it was like a wake up call to them.

I understand they don't want to wear ray rice down. But I believe he can handle 25-30 carries in games occasionally because he has that MJD type of body frame.....

[jdynamite]

I haven't seen the jumbo package much this season.... And we rarely spread teams out with single back formation and run to create lanes.

Also this year Ray Rice has had happy feet, sometimes he gets caught up making jumpcuts juke moves etc and doesnt get north south quick enough.....

Reminds me how Jamal Lewis went from hitting the hole hard to studda-stepping and tip-topping around. Or how mcgahee would make jump-cuts Into defenders in the backfield.

[PeRK82]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1320694287' post='859053']
All this happiness and joy is icky!!

I need something to complain about, so let's point some fingers, starting with Ray Rizzle.

Once AGAIN, we face a strong defense this season, and he puts up 2-something YPC.

I know, I know -- that holding call on the opening play was BS, and would have changed everything, right?
I dont think so...
first, it was a very close call; maybe it was maybe it wasn't a hold. But reality is, that play aside whether it was a hold or not, Rice did nothing to get the ground game going last night -- 2.4 YPC??

It seems to be a disturbing trend this season that when we face a tough defense, RR fails to get it going. Let's look at how he has done against the better defenses this season:

Week 1 - PIT
5.6 YPC

Week 2 - TEN
3.3 YPC

Week 4 - NYJ
2.6 YPC

Week 7 - JAX
3.5 YPC

Week 9 - PIT
2.4 YPC

Only one of those 5 games did he make an impact.

Even ARI held him to 3.5 YPC (however, running in 3 short TD's didnt help the YPC, and obviously we'll take points over yards any day).


On the season, RR is averaging 4.0 YPC, and as mediocre as that is, it would be MUCH lower if it weren't for the game against PIT and a 9 for 81 yards game @ STL (a defense who wont scare anyone).

For now, it's whatever -- but this needs to fix itself very soon. We're gearing up for a SB run and need that ground game to bring that extra dimension to our offense!
[/quote]

I have to agree with you, he (Rice) didnt have a good game against the Cardinals either. Yet All the Media outside of Baltimore thinks he is unstoppable and if we didnt have him, we wouldn't win games with Joe at the helm. I watched alot of Sports talk today just to see what they would say about Joe. I kid you not, nothing but excuses after excuses . It blows my mind. I think all the Sports talk shows jump on the Joe is Joke bandwagon when all they say is , Joe cant get it done with all the Talent that the team has. You can tell they have never actually sat and watched more than 1 or 2 games of the Ravens.

It blows my mind when they all say he lost to the Jags and Titans games but the Defense won the rest and Joe had nothing to do with the wins ,only the losses. There is always an excuse to why the RAVENS win or why Joe had a great game. They talked about how we almost lost to the Cardinals but you know they didnt watch the game. Because it was all Joe coming back from a 3 td deficit, but they will say Rice won us that game, who only had about 63 yds in rushing.

The Flacco hating is actually starting to get under my skin. When Brady or who ever have a bad game they dont say anything except excuse after excuse on why it wasnt Bradys fault. Lame.

And No one ever brings up our horrible O line , yet i always hear about how terrible O lines our on other teams and thats why that QB is struggling.

[Bltravens]

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1320726984' post='859994']
I haven't seen the jumbo package much this season.... And we rarely spread teams out with single back formation and run to create lanes.

Also this year Ray Rice has had happy feet, sometimes he gets caught up making jumpcuts juke moves etc and doesnt get north south quick enough.....

Reminds me how Jamal Lewis went from hitting the hole hard to studda-stepping and tip-topping around. Or how mcgahee would make jump-cuts Into defenders in the backfield.
[/quote]
Man I loved when Jamal would run as hard as he could into a hole and not give a damn who was on the other side. 240 pounds and could run faster than some DBs in a straight line, dude was an animal from 2000-2005.

[HaX]

well when it comes down to it the defenses are focused on them because they don't believe flacco can carve them up, like he's doing~

[jdynamite]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1320728369' post='860009']

Man I loved when Jamal would run as hard as he could into a hole and not give a damn who was on the other side. 240 pounds and could run faster than some DBs in a straight line, dude was an animal from 2000-2005.
[/quote]

I know after he did that "jail time" he never ran the same for us....
Back then I didn't even care that we couldn't pass the ball I took great pleasure in watching a defense impose its will on teams and then watching a RB do the same on offense for us.....

[Tank 92]

[quote name='Ravens<3' timestamp='1320715562' post='859745']
Ray just cant leave Joe like that lol. Especially vs the steelers.[i][b] Harrison jumped like a spider monkey and almost got to him.[/b][/i] The old Joe would have probably forced a throw and got it intercepted [i][b]And why have rice stay in to block when he was to scared to?[/b][/i] I would have been scared to block him also but atleast go for his legs or something when he jumped. Luckily Joe is so cool and it didnt matter. Thats the only thing I can honestly complain about. Also when Cary Williams was covering Wallace,he still did good but idk why Webb wasnt.
[/quote]

Agreed. He left Joe for dead.

I don't think Ray was scared, I think he was more startled to see that yellow and black spider monkey flying through the air!

[The Raven]

[quote name='Tiz' timestamp='1320722101' post='859907']
Lol at people who ignore defenses stacking the line and this includes top defenses then turn around and complain about rice...

Pitt with a top front 7 brings troy p to help on run plays and evidently ray has a problem because 5 cannot block 8...tsk tsk
[/quote]

They stacked the box on the first play of the game too but the zebras helped them out...

also, it's true that 5 cannot block 8, however, you have clearly forgotten about the tight end and the FB. They are actually allowed to block after. 7 blocking 8 is a lot better, we all know Rice can beat that 8th guy.

[The Raven]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1320722300' post='859914']
We need to stop running behind Leach every run play. The defense knows wherever Leach is, Rice is right behind. Mix it up a little so the defense doesn't always know where Ray is going.
[/quote]

Well... yeah... obviously, where Leach goes, Rice goes. Thats common football knowledge.

Thats kind of how running the football works....... You know, the running back running behind the [i]lead blocker[/i]. Every team that runs the ball with a FB has their HB follow the FB. Thats the way running the football is and has always been.

If we didn't run behind leach on every play, how would we run the ball? How would we block different runs? If we didn't run behind Leach, how much of our playbook could be run? Not much at all. If you don't run the ball behind the FB, that eliminates so many plays. Can't run Dive, no iso, no inside zone, no blast, no stretch plays, no off tackles, the only things I can think of that you can run without the FB lead blocking are certain counters and draws. Wow, thats just about every general type of run play. Hmmm...

[Tank 92]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1320711040' post='859615']
Its nothing Rice could have done with Harrison coming full speed and leap frogging in the air like that. Only thing Rice could have done was committed early but whoever would have thought Harrison would have turned into Superman right there.
[/quote]

I think he could have just clipped his legs and Harrison would have been butt over tea kettle.

He just can't do that. But the look on Ray's face as he stepped out of the way, watching Harrison fly, was priceless!

[codizzle]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1320753295' post='860144']


They stacked the box on the first play of the game too but the zebras helped them out...

also, it's true that 5 cannot block 8, however, you have clearly forgotten about the tight end and the FB. They are actually allowed to block after. 7 blocking 8 is a lot better, we all know Rice can beat that 8th guy.
[/quote]
and truthfully if our blocking is sound rice shouldnt even have to worry about the 7th or 8th guy... Rice should be able to hit the hole n go

[flynismo]

[quote name='Bltravens' timestamp='1320728369' post='860009']
Man I loved when Jamal would run as hard as he could into a hole and not give a damn who was on the other side. 240 pounds and could run faster than some DBs in a straight line, dude was an animal from 2000-2005.
[/quote]

God I miss Jamal!!

[Tank 92]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1320756496' post='860160']

God I miss Jamal!!
[/quote]


Jamal was a total beast!

My sons and I were at the 295 game in '03. Great memories........

[hawkprey]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1320753771' post='860148']

Well... yeah... obviously, where Leach goes, Rice goes. Thats common football knowledge.

Thats kind of how running the football works....... You know, the running back running behind the [i]lead blocker[/i]. Every team that runs the ball with a FB has their HB follow the FB. Thats the way running the football is and has always been.

If we didn't run behind leach on every play, how would we run the ball? How would we block different runs? If we didn't run behind Leach, how much of our playbook could be run? Not much at all. If you don't run the ball behind the FB, that eliminates so many plays. Can't run Dive, no iso, no inside zone, no blast, no stretch plays, no off tackles, the only things I can think of that you can run without the FB lead blocking are certain counters and draws. Wow, thats just about every general type of run play. Hmmm...
[/quote]

I was saying that the defense has a heads up on where the RB is going because where the FB goes makes it obvious. That's part of the reason why a lot of teams don't place importance on a fullback. If you run Ray to the opposite side of Leach a few times, it would force teams to keep their eye on Ray and not just Vonta giving us a half second advantage.

[wayne]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1320788772' post='860845']


I was saying that the defense has a heads up on where the RB is going because where the FB goes makes it obvious. That's part of the reason why a lot of teams don't place importance on a fullback. If you run Ray to the opposite side of Leach a few times, it would force teams to keep their eye on Ray and not just Vonta giving us a half second advantage.
[/quote]

Agreed, some type of misdirection or something.

[The Raven]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1320788772' post='860845']

I was saying that the defense has a heads up on where the RB is going because where the FB goes makes it obvious. That's part of the reason why a lot of teams don't place importance on a fullback. If you run Ray to the opposite side of Leach a few times, it would force teams to keep their eye on Ray and not just Vonta giving us a half second advantage.
[/quote]

I know what you were saying. And I was was saying that that would not work in a real running game. Most teams don't place importance on a FB because they run the 11 offense most of the time. In the 11 offense (1RB, 1 TE) there is no FB, but it spreads the defense out enough so that a FB is not entirely necesary for a run game. However, in order to run a power run game, a FB is required, and FBs are in most cases the lead blocker. Why would the lead blocker not block play side?

If Rice ran to the opposite side of Leach, we would not be able to block the defense efficiently, unless it is a counter or misdirection play. And, you can't run the ball exclusively off counters/misdirections. Those plays have no use if they base plays for them are not or can not be executed. If you run a zone stretch to the strong side, why would you send Leach to the weak side? That makes no sense.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1320791489' post='860914']

I know what you were saying. And I was was saying that that would not work in a real running game. Most teams don't place importance on a FB because they run the 11 offense most of the time. In the 11 offense (1RB, 1 TE) there is no FB, but it spreads the defense out enough so that a FB is not entirely necesary for a run game. However, in order to run a power run game, a FB is required, and FBs are in most cases the lead blocker. Why would the lead blocker not block play side?

If Rice ran to the opposite side of Leach, we would not be able to block the defense efficiently, unless it is a counter or misdirection play. And, you can't run the ball exclusively off counters/misdirections. Those plays have no use if they base plays for them are not or can not be executed. If you run a zone stretch to the strong side, why would you send Leach to the weak side? That makes no sense.
[/quote]
Why do you think the cutback is working so effectively for a lot of teams this year? I'm talking about a once in a while play. Rice will just be running into less of a crowd. As long as you have a TE on the other side to block the end, I don't see how it could wouldn't help keep the defense honest in the long run.

[The Raven]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1320796718' post='861023']
Why do you think the cutback is working so effectively for a lot of teams this year? I'm talking about a once in a while play. Rice will just be running into less of a crowd. As long as you have a TE on the other side to block the end, I don't see how it could wouldn't help keep the defense honest in the long run.
[/quote]

The cutback works because the defense is overpursuing, because of the very fact that there are FBs lead blocking on the play side.

Yeah, agreed, I need to see more misdirection and counter in the run game. I saw some more of that Sunday. I finally saw a pulling guard too, speaking of counter game. Yanda trap blocked the crap outta James Harrison.

And, if say you're running a play to the right, lets use the zone stretch as an example. Lets use the 4-3 defense as an example, just for simplicities sake. The offensive line takes a drop step to the right. The LT takes his inside gap up to the backeror any DL in the middle. The LG and C deuce combo the nose/1 tech up to the backer. The RG will either block the 3 tech himself or take a double team with the RT. If he takes him alone, the RT takes the LE up to the Sam backer with the TE. So, at this point we have the DTs, the LE, and the OLBs blocked. We're leaving the RE since he's on the back side and we're running stretch. Now, we still have to block the Mike linebacker. If we send the FB to the left side, and the play is to the right the Mike would be left unblocked. Now, there is a chance the misdirection of the FB catches the Mike off balance and he pursues the back side, but any intelligent backer would continue on the play side after reading the guards and centers.

So, if we run stretch to the strong side, and send the FB left, the Mike is unaccounted for, barring the possibility he follows the FB, but still, many backers wouldn't.

[Tatelli]

WOW! Up to this point into the season IMO every team targeted RR. They felt if they stop Ray, they had a better shot at winning if it was put in Joe's hands. Ray's numbers will be better than last year, now that teams have to look at the Ravens passing game that much more. Ray is a very big key to how this O works, take your eye's off him and that's like thinking Q is old and slow...go ahead I dare them to!

Ricky gets his yards because he is less keyed on then RR...."This is just my thoughts".

[hawkprey]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1320797582' post='861034']

The cutback works because the defense is overpursuing, because of the very fact that there are FBs lead blocking on the play side.

Yeah, agreed, I need to see more misdirection and counter in the run game. I saw some more of that Sunday. I finally saw a pulling guard too, speaking of counter game. Yanda trap blocked the crap outta James Harrison.

And, if say you're running a play to the right, lets use the zone stretch as an example. Lets use the 4-3 defense as an example, just for simplicities sake. The offensive line takes a drop step to the right. The LT takes his inside gap up to the backeror any DL in the middle. The LG and C deuce combo the nose/1 tech up to the backer. The RG will either block the 3 tech himself or take a double team with the RT. If he takes him alone, the RT takes the LE up to the Sam backer with the TE. So, at this point we have the DTs, the LE, and the OLBs blocked. We're leaving the RE since he's on the back side and we're running stretch. Now, we still have to block the Mike linebacker. If we send the FB to the left side, and the play is to the right the Mike would be left unblocked. Now, there is a chance the misdirection of the FB catches the Mike off balance and he pursues the back side, but any intelligent backer would continue on the play side after reading the guards and centers.

So, if we run stretch to the strong side, and send the FB left, the Mike is unaccounted for, barring the possibility he follows the FB, but still, many backers wouldn't.
[/quote]

Luckily Ray Rice is hard to see behind the line, so I think he would benefit from misdirection more than bulldozing ahead. Ricky Williams on the other hand I would just run straight behind Leach. He's had some big gains from the right side when the entire play develops that way. But Ray isn't the bulldozing back, so if Leach say misses on a block, Rice is stopped for no gain. What I mean is the same play over and over won't work. We don't do a lot of experimenting on offense. When was the last time we had an explosive WR run a dummy end-around to throw the D off? I wish we would've done that with Stallworth. I like the misdirection plays for that extra split second the defense has to think.

[The Raven]

[quote name='hawkprey' timestamp='1320798074' post='861046']

Luckily Ray Rice is hard to see behind the line, so I think he would benefit from misdirection more than bulldozing ahead. Ricky Williams on the other hand I would just run straight behind Leach. He's had some big gains from the right side when the entire play develops that way. But Ray isn't the bulldozing back, so if Leach say misses on a block, Rice is stopped for no gain. What I mean is the same play over and over won't work. We don't do a lot of experimenting on offense. When was the last time we had an explosive WR run a dummy end-around to throw the D off? I wish we would've done that with Stallworth. I like the misdirection plays for that extra split second the defense has to think.
[/quote]

I agree with everything. I think the straight ahead runs would work better if we tried to establish some kind of counter game, but thats something I don't see from Cam. Unlike others, I wouldn't mind seeing an end around, with the way teams are swarming to our stretch plays an end around would really kill a defense.

[hawkprey]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1320799242' post='861072']

I agree with everything. I think the straight ahead runs would work better if we tried to establish some kind of counter game, but thats something I don't see from Cam. Unlike others, I wouldn't mind seeing an end around, with the way teams are swarming to our stretch plays an end around would really kill a defense.
[/quote]
What most people don't know about Cam's end-arounds is that Stallworth was actually supposed to keep going around. Around the field for about half an hour. Unfortunately he kept getting tackled on the first lap and the play never went as Cam drew it up.[img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/Sports_sport04.gif[/img]

[codizzle]

I got a feeling rr will have a huge few weeks coming up soon.. Especially if flacco has a good week against seattle.. Teams will have to respect flacco more..
In fact ill say ray breaks out against cincy