MERGED: Threads Urging a Rational Approach To Our Woes

[gabefergy]

Hey Fly, I think you should have titled this thread "What happened to Common Sense and why does no one know how to formulate an argument?"

I blame the public school system

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319845056' post='842639']

hmmm....3 years, 3 playoff births. He may not put up crazy numbers but when it comes ot winning he is the model of consistency. Can GB, Pitt, Indy, or NE say that over the last 3 years.

PS only indy but how well is that going for them!!
[/quote]

You're just opening yourself up to the whole "The defense won those games, Flacco isn't even a game manager" argument. Though how that explains the mediocrity that was/is Kyle Boller (considering he played with better defenses than Flacco had until this year), I'll never know.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1319845196' post='842641']
Wait, you mean "where are the flacco haters now" thread wasnt an embarassing enough for you? If I remember correctly, you posted that after Ravens won the RAMS.( of course, "common sense" would tell you you should not post that when we have a jets game week after that) And you ranted about how great flacco is like he won the game himself. On contrary, now you rant about everyone, blaming every other players in ravens BUT flacco. Oh..the irony..i ask you, "where happened to common sense?"
[/quote]

Flacco pretty much carried the offense against the Jets, too.

[wayne]

People act like other QBs aren't faced with the same problems as Flacco. From the O-line to wanting a new O-Coordinator, I can name many QBs that's going through the same thing, even worse. Good QBs overcome the shortcomings of their team and that doesn't mean if they overcome the shortcomings that it means a SB win. My faith in Flacco as is with most people in the world right now that follows the NFL, Ravens included is rattled. Starting to have doubts and like what's been pointed out by every expert for the last 2-3 years, only thing that will hold us back from winning is the play of Flacco. You think all these experts just speaking out of their b^%5% on the subject, you think they just automatically point the finger to Flacco assuming the rest of our team is SB ready?

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1319845481' post='842648']

You're just opening yourself up to the whole "The defense won those games, Flacco isn't even a game manager" argument. Though how that explains the mediocrity that was/is Kyle Boller (considering he played with better defenses than Flacco had until this year), I'll never know.
[/quote]

Thats fine, I got thick skin lol. Or what about Grbac, or how come we did not win the SB with McNair, for a team that has had a carousel of QB's and consistently awesome defenses it is crazy how we did not start going to the playoffs until joe got here, it is sheer insanity i tell ya,

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319845652' post='842654']
People act like other QBs aren't faced with the same problems as Flacco. From the O-line to wanting a new O-Coordinator, I can name many QBs that's going through the same thing, even worse. Good QBs overcome the shortcomings of their team and that doesn't mean if they overcome the shortcomings that it means a SB win. My faith in Flacco as is with most people in the world right now that follows the NFL, Ravens included is rattled. Starting to have doubts and like what's been pointed out by every expert for the last 2-3 years, only thing that will hold us back from winning is the play of Flacco. [b]You think all these experts just speaking out of their b^%5% on the subject[/b], you think they just automatically point the finger to Flacco assuming the rest of our team is SB ready?
[/quote]

Now honestly would that surprise you they make a living off that!! now saying that they are wrong or right about Flacco but in general they talk out of their rears.

[rlh445]

You knew what you were doing Fly,

[wayne]

Yea, the 3 playoff wins in 3 str8 years, Flacco gets the least credit for that. Do we need to pull up his numbers since people want to always throw that out there regarding Flacco.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319845825' post='842663']
Yea, the 3 playoff wins in 3 str8 years, Flacco gets the least credit for that. Do we need to pull up his numbers since people want to always throw that out there regarding Flacco.
[/quote]

I think most know the stats, it is just that it is a bit more than coincidence that he gets here and we are perennial playoff contenders.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319845652' post='842654']
People act like other QBs aren't faced with the same problems as Flacco. From the O-line to wanting a new O-Coordinator, I can name many QBs that's going through the same thing, even worse. Good QBs overcome the shortcomings of their team and that doesn't mean if they overcome the shortcomings that it means a SB win. My faith in Flacco as is with most people in the world right now that follows the NFL, Ravens included is rattled. Starting to have doubts and like what's been pointed out by every expert for the last 2-3 years, only thing that will hold us back from winning is the play of Flacco. You think all these experts just speaking out of their b^%5% on the subject, you think they just automatically point the finger to Flacco assuming the rest of our team is SB ready?
[/quote]
Wayne, I agree that other QBs have to deal with adversity, but they dont always come through either. I already replied to your first post framing this question. Romo, Ryan, Vick, Rivers, Schaub, Big Ben, even the mighty Tom Brady have all had bad performances. Some have had multiple bad outings that have lead directly to losses. Its hard to be a QB, especially when the Oline is bad or WRs arent getting open. For some reason some of the Ravens fanbase expects Joe to be perfect in every situation and when he isnt he needs to be benched. Its simply a knee-jerk reaction, and its not necessary.

I'll even say this: If Joe has another terrible game against Arizona I will come on here and call him out for it. I have defended Flacco for the most part, because I think as Fly would say "common sense" dictates that its not all on Joe. If he continues to play bad though he deserves to be criticized.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319845652' post='842654']
People act like other QBs aren't faced with the same problems as Flacco. From the O-line to wanting a new O-Coordinator, I can name many QBs that's going through the same thing, even worse. Good QBs overcome the shortcomings of their team and that doesn't mean if they overcome the shortcomings that it means a SB win. My faith in Flacco as is with most people in the world right now that follows the NFL, Ravens included is rattled. Starting to have doubts and like what's been pointed out by every expert for the last 2-3 years, only thing that will hold us back from winning is the play of Flacco. You think all these experts just speaking out of their b^%5% on the subject, you think they just automatically point the finger to Flacco assuming the rest of our team is SB ready?
[/quote]

What expert? Every NFL analyst I've heard that I respect has had nothing but good things to say about Flacco. I respect Phil Simms, and he loves Flacco. Bill Belichick has said good things about Flacco. Eric Mangini was even defending Flacco against Skip Bayless earlier in the week (despite the fact that Mangini was way out of his league as a head coach, he does know football). John Clayton is a reporter, but he's been around a long time and generally knows his stuff, and he keeps calling Flacco elite (for the record, I don't consider Flacco elite, but John's list of elite quarterbacks is really like a top-10 list).

[wayne]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319845762' post='842658']


Now honestly would that surprise you they make a living off that!! now saying that they are wrong or right about Flacco but in general they talk out of their rears.
[/quote]

Guess its a coiencidence that pretty much all of them points the finger to the same problem with the Ravens or do you think they just a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who just follow the lead of what the other one says without doing their own research, which one seems more logical? Take in mind that most of these experts played in the NFL so its fair to say they have the knowledge to quickly break down a team and found the problem within the team. They are human and they throw opinions out there so they can be wrong from time to time but for all of them to be saying the same thing about what holds us back from winning the big show, c'mon man!

[wayne]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1319846154' post='842667']


What expert? Every NFL analyst I've heard that I respect has had nothing but good things to say about Flacco. I respect Phil Simms, and he loves Flacco. Bill Belichick has said good things about Flacco. Eric Mangini was even defending Flacco against Skip Bayless earlier in the week (despite the fact that Mangini was way out of his league as a head coach, he does know football). John Clayton is a reporter, but he's been around a long time and generally knows his stuff, and he keeps calling Flacco elite (for the record, I don't consider Flacco elite, but John's list of elite quarterbacks is really like a top-10 list).
[/quote]

Didn't say they didn't respect him or say good things about him but they all says he is the key to our success and how Flacco goes, so do we .

[gabefergy]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319846389' post='842670']
Guess its a coiencidence that pretty much all of them points the finger to the same problem with the Ravens or do you think they just a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who just follow the lead of what the other one says without doing their own research, which one seems more logical? Take in mind that most of these experts played in the NFL so its fair to say they have the knowledge to quickly break down a team and found the problem within the team. They are human and they throw opinions out there so they can be wrong from time to time but for all of them to be saying the same thing about what holds us back from winning the big show, c'mon man!
[/quote]
I think its because its quite obvious that our Defense is not the problem. That means our Offense is what is going to hold us back. Offense means QB, so Joe is going to be the scapegoat. Clearly he deserves to shoulder some of the blame, but as some analysts have pointed out, the WRs have to be better at getting separation. Michael Smith of ESPN also mentioned that Cam Cameron is a big part of the problem on "Numbers Never Lie".

[cursona pirate]

[quote name='flynismo' timestamp='1319831241' post='842331']
All these Flacco / Tyrod threads are an embarrassment. Scratch that, the comments made in those threads are an embarrassment.


Here are some of the gems I have come across, and my response to them:


1. What makes you think Tyrod cant come in and jump start the offense?

Besides the obvious -- Tyrod is a 6th round rookie who stunk it up in preseason -- the lack of common sense is stunning.
You are not handed anything in the NFL, especially not when you are a 6th rounder. You want a shot to start? You have to EARN that shot. Outplay Flacco in practice. Until that happens, we have to assume that Tyrod will play exactly as how we would expect a 6th round rookie QB would play.

While we are talking about Flacco (again), I would like you guys who want Flacco out of here to answer me this.

When our WR are getting called out in public (see Rodney Harrison's comment in a segment about TO coming here) for not getting open and doing their jobs, when Ray Rice is playing poorly against decent defenses (and every week seems to let a Flacco pass bounce off his hands for an incompletion), when our OL is playing the way it is -- what do you expect the results to be with any other QB here? If we traded Flacco for Vick, Schaub, Romo, Eli...do you SERIOUSLY think they could do any better in an environment where NONE of the supporting cast is consistently doing their jobs?

2. Tyrod's mobility makes him a better option for our offense.


This is so stupid that I'll leave it to you to laugh and move on.
Btw, only Roethlisberger can extend a play as well as Flacco does, IMO.


3. My faith is shaken in the team because of Monday night.

Really? I wonder if Pats fans felt the same way after that embarrassment against BUF, or if Steelers fans feel that way every time they lose to some scrub team that they should have beaten (which happens quite more than you'd think).

4. I'm tired of the excuses for Flacco.

Reality check -- its not an excuse if it is true. It is not an excuse to be upset that Boldin does not get open nearly enough, or that Dickson cant hold onto a pass if he is being defended, or that our OL lets a LB come in untouched, or that our running game is just as much to blame for our offensive struggles (looking at you Rice. Fumble the ball on the one?? Letting a pass goes straight through your hands to the turf??
Averaging 2-something yards per carry against decent defenses??)

which leads me to my final point. If you cant acknowledge that Flacco is getting no help, and NO QB can do it all on his own and spread the blame around where it belongs, then get off Flacco's nuts, because you have no clue.


I dont expect my thoughts to change anything -- as a whole, we act like this after every single loss -- but at least show some common sense when you are venting.


Rant over..
[/quote]
I love this...

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319846389' post='842670']
Guess its a coiencidence that pretty much all of them points the finger to the same problem with the Ravens or do you think they just a bunch of bandwagon jumpers who just follow the lead of what the other one says without doing their own research, which one seems more logical? Take in mind that most of these experts played in the NFL so its fair to say they have the knowledge to quickly break down a team and found the problem within the team. They are human and they throw opinions out there so they can be wrong from time to time but for all of them to be saying the same thing about what holds us back from winning the big show, c'mon man!
[/quote]

I could almost agree but these are the people saying Ryan, Freeman and the Sanchize are better, that really tells me the length of their expertise. Also how many times have you heard an Oc called out by name. I havent much but Cam has been twice which is more than any other.

not sayin Flacco was instrumental but he played his role.

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1319846912' post='842679']

Just for arguments sake, why is it ok for all these threads to pop up about how Joe Flacco is terrible, but when someone starts a thread to defend Flacco its "just trying to instigate". What makes a thread necessary?[/quote]

Because it's justified. Flacco is possibly having his worst season as an NFL QB. I like him, but what are we going to keep saying? It's only his 4th year. It's only his 5th year. It's only his 6th year, so on and so forth. If he was playing well, ok, perfect. But he's just not having a good season this year and people get frustrated. Telling someone to use "common sense" is insulting. It's a message board, fans will say what they want about the team. This is just another thread for the positives and popularity. Spare me.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319846517' post='842672']
Didn't say they didn't respect him or say good things about him but they all says he is the key to our success and how Flacco goes, so do we .
[/quote]

That's something we both agree on. But there's no evidence that any other quarterback could come in here and we'd instantly go to the Superbowl and win it. I'd say there are three guys in the league that could pull it off right now: Rodgers, Brees, and Brady. Manning could but he's injured, and there's no telling how he'll come back from that. We are still a favorite to go to the Superbowl, and we may still win it. Clayton's qb rankings before the season were Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Ben, Ryan, Vick, Eli, Romo, Flacco. I'm pretty confident in saying that Flacco has played a much tougher schedule than any of them, and that only the first 5 could come in here now and do a better job than Flacco has against the same schedule. Remember in 2007 Eli Manning was in his 4th year, totally inconsistent, all of the fans calling for his head. Then he gets crazy hot in the playoffs and BAM - Superbowl for the Giants.

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1319847065' post='842685']

This thread is no more silly or unnecessary than the one that's brilliantly titled, 'Tyrod Taylor'. How about the one, 'Badly Misspelled Stuff About Drew Bre[b]w[/b]s and Flacco'? His Cam thread was him eating crow because of all the crap he's talked about Cam in the past. It's definitely trying to instigate though and it has succeeded [/quote]

He's not getting me lol. One more warning and I'm permanentalt banned. Just sticking up for the other people. Not that I want Tyrod to play, people just need to realize that Flacco is having a bad season.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' timestamp='1319847302' post='842689']
Because it's justified. Flacco is possibly having his worst season as an NFL QB. I like him, but what are we going to keep saying? It's only his 4th year. It's only his 5th year. It's only his 6th year, so on and so forth. If he was playing well, ok, perfect. But he's just not having a good season this year and people get frustrated. Telling someone to use "common sense" is insulting. It's a message board, fans will say what they want about the team.[b] This is just another thread for the positives and popularity.[/b] Spare me.
[/quote]

If thats true I am getting robbed and somebody owes me.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' timestamp='1319847302' post='842689']
Because it's justified. Flacco is possibly having his worst season as an NFL QB. I like him, but what are we going to keep saying? It's only his 4th year. It's only his 5th year. It's only his 6th year, so on and so forth. If he was playing well, ok, perfect. But he's just not having a good season this year and people get frustrated. Telling someone to use "common sense" is insulting. It's a message board, fans will say what they want about the team. This is just another thread for the positives and popularity. Spare me.
[/quote]
Well, no one is making you read it or post in it. Maybe the title of the thread is a bit insulting, but then again there is a lot of truth to it. It really doesnt make sense to bench Joe for Tyrod, and anyone with an ounce of football IQ should recognize that. I am frustrated with how Flacco has been playing this season along with everyone else, but I dont see how benching him helps anything. He does have an impressive track record in the NFL. I highly doubt he just decided to start playing poorly all of a sudden. 3 seasons of solid play is more of an indicating factor of how the season will play out than 2 or 3 bad games IMO. He can clearly play better too because we have seen it this season. The inconsistency is frustrating, but there are lots of factors that have to be taken into consideration.

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319833776' post='842399']
Sorry but if Vick, Shaub, Romo...... played for this team, hell yea I think they can do better. You gus act like with other teams, everything is laid ot perfectly for the QBs. They are faced with some of the same problems Joe is faced with, some have even more problems. No one said it was going to be perfect or easy for Flacco but the good QBs still find a way through the muck.
[/quote]

I will call you on that one. Vick is on a loaded team, [b]loaded[/b], especially offensively, and he's playing terribly. 9 TDs, 8 picks. People complain about Flacco's clutch gene; Tony Romo is the definition of someone who is not clutch. He had 4 picks against the Jets in week 1, and has thrown a pick in all but 2 games this season. He failed to get a crucial score against the Patriots, and they came back to beat him. Shaub has played pretty putridly at times, including against that god-aweful Colts team in week 1.

[rlh445]

[quote name='Romo Ravens' timestamp='1319847780' post='842692']
He's not getting me lol. One more warning and I'm permanentalt banned. Just sticking up for the other people. Not that I want Tyrod to play, people just need to realize that Flacco is having a bad season.
[/quote]

Ha, be careful man! Let me see if I can put this in perspective. First, the guys' you are sticking up for don't need it, they have proven quite scrappy and wiling to defend their points to death no matter what. No need to risk banishment just for them. Second, his stats so far this season (barring W/L column) aren't the greatest, and that's for sure. They aren't *quite* bad enough to even jokingly suggest that we trade for Boller, or throw poor Tyrod in there. Silly comments are silly comments, and I know you'd agree that there have been quite a few this past week. Lastly, why is it that you mention that it's a message board and people will have their opinions, but then go on to call someone out for having an opinion and posting it? I like you and am merely having fun, so don't get mad and get banished! You're the only thing with 'Romo' in it that I can stand!

[Romo Ravens]

[quote name='rlh445' timestamp='1319848310' post='842702']

Ha, be careful man! Let me see if I can put this in perspective. First, the guys' you are sticking up for don't need it, they have proven quite scrappy and wiling to defend their points to death no matter what. No need to risk banishment just for them. Second, his stats so far this season (barring W/L column) aren't the greatest, and that's for sure. They aren't *quite* bad enough to even jokingly suggest that we trade for Boller, or throw poor Tyrod in there. Silly comments are silly comments, and I know you'd agree that there have been quite a few this past week. Lastly, why is it that you mention that it's a message board and people will have their opinions, but then go on to call someone out for having an opinion and posting it? I like you and am merely having fun, so don't get mad and get banished! You're the only thing with 'Romo' in it that I can stand![/quote]

Everyone has the option to post or not, there's just certain things that shouldn't be said. I get warned for telling someone to grow up, but I guess mentioning someones "nuts" is ok. Just kind of contradicting in my opinion. But thanks man, I don't like Tony either lol

[PeRK82]

[quote name='Ravenslifer' timestamp='1319837861' post='842492']

Are you talking about Brady? You do know he was in his [i]second[/i] season in New England when he took over, right? And he played in one game, not as the starter either, in his first season? And he had the benefit of 2 full offseasons of reps?
[/quote]

Yes i was, but honestly it doesnt matter, Taylor doesnt get as much credit as he deserves, they always seem to compare him to Troy Smith and that isnt fair. Truth of the matter is, it really doesnt matter what any of us says about anyone until they actually get a chance. So it is what it is. I ve said it before and ill say it again. If Joe isnt performing because of how he is playing or because of the O line, I say give Taylor a shot just to confuse the opposing D, Im not saying Bench Joe but if we have the same kind of performance as the Jags game then we need to make a switch for that game. No point of beating a dead horse when we do have so many options that we can go with. And in no way am i saying Taylor is the answer but everyone should get a chance. Same goes if we are leading by 3 tds, take Joe out so we dont risk him getting hurt. But even if we did, We wouldnt be able to grade Taylor on his performance because more than likely , we would just run the ball over and over again.

[Milton145]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319843288' post='842599']

It is sort of the perfect (insert expletive) storm for Flacco. Think about it.

Rice gets the ball 8 times. There goes the running game

Their db's must have looked like Dora the Explorer because the refs let them be backpacks that game. There goes your first 2 receiving options.

Gurode missed several blocks among others. There goes the protection.

Then the play take's 20 of 25 seconds to get in tehre so he has no time to read the D, just snap it and wing it. There goes sight adjustments,

So you take away a QB's protection, running game, pre-snap reads, and receivers, how well do you honestly expect him to do.
[/quote]


Flacco's first 2 throws to Boldin..all on him. Deep ball to Torrey Smith ..misses as he does routinely. Those plays flacco had time but just showed how poor his accuracy can be.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Milton145' timestamp='1319849328' post='842718']


Flacco's first 2 throws to Boldin..all on him. Deep ball to Torrey Smith ..misses as he does routinely. Those plays flacco had time but just showed how poor his accuracy can be.
[/quote]

Granted and I will concede to that, he has not been an all star as of late, but he does need people around him to step up to, it is a cumulative effort.

[Thepurplehaze]

[quote name='Milton145' timestamp='1319849328' post='842718']


Flacco's first 2 throws to Boldin..all on him. Deep ball to Torrey Smith ..misses as he does routinely. Those plays flacco had time but just showed how poor his accuracy can be.
[/quote]
torrey and Boldin were completely covered the whole game except maybe one or two throws I noticed Flacco did miss the mark(specifically one over the middle to Boldin).

[flynismo]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1319845196' post='842641']Wait, you mean "where are the flacco haters now" thread wasnt an embarassing enough for you? If I remember correctly, you posted that after Ravens won the RAMS.( of course, "common sense" would tell you you should not post that when we have a jets game week after that) And you ranted about how great flacco is like he won the game himself. On contrary, now you rant about everyone, blaming every other players in ravens BUT flacco. Oh..the irony..i ask you, "where happened to common sense?"[/quote]


um, what? Puff puff pass, son

[Ravenslifer]

[quote name='PeRK82' timestamp='1319849168' post='842717'] Yes i was, but honestly it doesnt matter, Taylor doesnt get as much credit as he deserves, they always seem to compare him to Troy Smith and that isnt fair. Truth of the matter is, it really doesnt matter what any of us says about anyone until they actually get a chance. So it is what it is. I ve said it before and ill say it again. If Joe isnt performing because of how he is playing or because of the O line, I say give Taylor a shot just to confuse the opposing D, Im not saying Bench Joe but if we have the same kind of performance as the Jags game then we need to make a switch for that game. No point of beating a dead horse when we do have so many options that we can go with. And in no way am i saying Taylor is the answer but everyone should get a chance. Same goes if we are leading by 3 tds, take Joe out so we dont risk him getting hurt. But even if we did, We wouldnt be able to grade Taylor on his performance because more than likely , we would just run the ball over and over again.[/quote]

I agree with you. If we are blowing teams out, Taylor should get some reps. And I wouldn't mind seeing a few wildcat plays, but to do that you'd need to have Taylor take some reps at wide receiver/running back, otherwise everyone will know what the heck you are doing. But maybe the answer for not pulling Joe on Monday night was that they simply don't believe Taylor knows the offense well enough yet. That's what I'm betting on. Besides, despite it being a bad performance by Joe, it wasn't putrid i.e. last year's Bengal's debacle (he wasn't pulled after that either, and he responded by dominating the rest of the year, for what it's worth). But what I don't believe is that if your quarterback is struggling but not putrid, that you should try to bench him to win the current game only to insert him in the next game. Players need to work through their struggles and understand them, and Flacco did. Unfortunately it was in the 4th quarter when the game was out of reach anyway. But maybe next time, it will be earlier and we can climb back. But benching a guy when he's playing poorly, in my opinion, will only stunt their growth in the long run - unless of course, they're Kyle Boller and just flat out can't play.