Why Is Our Offense So Chronically Bad?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='robermar' timestamp='1319653941' post='839571']
It can affect your game plan. It affects how you operate on offense. If you have a dominate defensive player running a dominant defense...the game plan on offense is not to lose the game. The offense plays it close to the vest...at least that is what I have seen from the Ravens every year. It's like the Colts and Peyton Manning. Except the dominant player is on offense. The defense is molded around the fact that they have a dominent offensive player running a dominant offense. Their defense is built around that....their players and scheme.
[/quote]

I can agree the Ravens have for years seemingly played not to lose game on offense. How the Colts defense is built around Peyton makes no sense to me though. When he and the offense are scoring points, it forces other teams to pass to keep up, which allows Freeney and Mathis to bring pressure. Still, that Peyton is good QB has no impact on the speedy, undersized defensive payers Indy drafts or that they run a Cover 2.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1319730239' post='840759']

[img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.png[/img] It's your opinion, not a fact. You need a good QB to get the ball consistently to a WR, but QBs don't "make" WRs. By that logic, Culpepper made Moss and Stafford makes Megatron.

The NFL has become a passing league since Joe was drafted. I can't deny he has holes in his game but this has been the only year I'd say he has a diverse compliment of weapons in the passing game. And yet, when he isn't struggling, it's the o-line in pass protection.
[/quote]

SO it is unrelated that once Kurt Warner left that Fitz's number's went down.

Or that Deion Branch goes from nothing in Seattle but goes back to hte Pats and is productive

Or that Megatron already is 2 touchdowns away form last year and twice as many in 2009, And he finally got a good QB and is being unleashed.

Or that Moss goes from crazy productive in new england and play musical teams after that.

If you have a bad QB you are only half the receiver you could be, if you have an all-pro you could be twice as good as you really are, because now you can be thrown open. It is much more than an opinion it is documented and has been said by the likes of Dan Marino, Steve Young, Montana, you know the All-Pro types. Call it an opinion but it is widely accepted and circulated by many.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Just mindlessly blitz at Joe Flacco and the Offense, and good things will happen for the opposing team. He made jaguars,titans rushers look like Superbowl champs.

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319731242' post='840783']
SO it is unrelated that once Kurt Warner left that Fitz's number's went down.

Or that Deion Branch goes from nothing in Seattle but goes back to hte Pats and is productive

Or that Megatron already is 2 touchdowns away form last year and twice as many in 2009, And he finally got a good QB and is being unleashed.

Or that Moss goes from crazy productive in new england and play musical teams after that.

If you have a bad QB you are only half the receiver you could be, if you have an all-pro you could be twice as good as you really are, because now you can be thrown open. It is much more than an opinion it is documented and has been said by the likes of Dan Marino, Steve Young, Montana, you know the All-Pro types. Call it an opinion but it is widely accepted and circulated by many.
[/quote]

I never denied the impact a quality QB can have on a talented WR. I just don't believe QBs [i]make[/i] WRs when we've seen good WRs succeed in bad situations or make average QBs look good.

In all the examples you mentioned, it hasn't just been a matter of a great QB throwing to a WR. The off-season Warner left, Boldin was traded. QBs aside, Branch wasn't playing wth a quarter of the offensive talent in Seattle that he is now in New England. The same goes Moss.

Megatron has always been capable of monster numbers. Yes, the play of Stafford has helped but so has the emergence of Pettigrew and slightly better play from the rest of the supporting cast.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319731242' post='840783']


SO it is unrelated that once Kurt Warner left that Fitz's number's went down.

Or that Deion Branch goes from nothing in Seattle but goes back to hte Pats and is productive

Or that Megatron already is 2 touchdowns away form last year and twice as many in 2009, And he finally got a good QB and is being unleashed.

Or that Moss goes from crazy productive in new england and play musical teams after that.

If you have a bad QB you are only half the receiver you could be, if you have an all-pro you could be twice as good as you really are, because now you can be thrown open. It is much more than an opinion it is documented and has been said by the likes of Dan Marino, Steve Young, Montana, you know the All-Pro types. Call it an opinion but it is widely accepted and circulated by many.
[/quote]
It's a two way street. Great QBs make WRs look better and vice versa. Coaching and the offensive system are part of the equation as well.

Stafford is a perfect example: he can't complete a pass to anyone not named Calvin Johnson. Are you really going to argue that Stafford is what made Megatron elite?

[PuRock]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1319731960' post='840800']
It's a two way street. Great QBs make WRs look better and vice versa. Coaching and the offensive system are part of the equation as well.

Stafford is a perfect example: he can't complete a pass to anyone not named Calvin Johnson. Are you really going to argue that Stafford is what made Megatron elite?
[/quote]

Stafford is good and developing. But anybody that watches him plays this year sees him throw it high to a place where Calvin can go up and get it a ton. Calvin is making the play more than Stafford. Other than that pass he checks down a ton to Pettigrew and Best. Megatron is really driving that passing game. Even Shaun Hill put up good stats by just throwing it to Calvin's direction.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1319731818' post='840794']

I never denied the impact a quality QB can have on a talented WR. I just don't believe QBs [i]make[/i] WRs when we've seen good WRs succeed in bad situations or make average QBs look good.

In all the examples you mentioned, it hasn't just been a matter of a great QB throwing to a WR. The off-season Warner left, Boldin was traded. QBs aside, Branch wasn't playing wth a quarter of the offensive talent in Seattle that he is now in New England. The same goes Moss.

Megatron has always been capable of monster numbers. Yes, the play of Stafford has helped but so has the emergence of Pettigrew and slightly better play from the rest of the supporting cast.
[/quote]


The point was the QB really has a lot more to do with a WR becoming good than a WB becoming good because of the WR. There are only about 3 WR that can really do that. The rest are heavily influenced on QB play.

And Boldin was traded because Steve Breaston was coming along as a legitimate number 2 and for the most part he was, it is just that the QB sucked.

And the only real talent the NE has on the offense is at QB. The tight ends are good but weren't there the first time branch was there and he was still successful.

Look at Indy, do you think Reggie Wayne is really that bad, or is it his QB. If manning were there we would still be talking about him as a top5 or top 10 receiver but with curtis painter he is pretty average.

As for Pettigrew I am not convinced that Megatron is not helping with his numbers considering now teams actually have to respect MEgatron more than normal because now a QB can consistently get him the ball.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1319731960' post='840800']
It's a two way street. Great QBs make WRs look better and vice versa. Coaching and the offensive system are part of the equation as well.

Stafford is a perfect example: he can't complete a pass to anyone not named Calvin Johnson. Are you really going to argue that Stafford is what made Megatron elite?
[/quote]


Again enter the Peyton Manning effect, is Reggie Wayne really that bad. Is Fitz as bad as Leinart, Skelton,made him look or as average as Kolb.

And Titus Young and Pettigrew are actually doing really well, they are not elite but they are productive receiver's as well as Burleson.

[Moderator 3]

So, are we no longer discussing why we haven't had a good offense for [size=5]14[/size] years?

[Purple Nurple]

lock it down!!!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319732207' post='840806']
The point was the QB really has a lot more to do with a WR becoming good than a WB becoming good because of the WR. There are only about 3 WR that can really do that. The rest are heavily influenced on QB play.

And Boldin was traded because Steve Breaston was coming along as a legitimate number 2 and for the most part he was, it is just that the QB sucked.

And the only real talent the NE has on the offense is at QB. The tight ends are good but weren't there the first time branch was there and he was still successful.

Look at Indy, do you think Reggie Wayne is really that bad, or is it his QB. If manning were there we would still be talking about him as a top5 or top 10 receiver but with curtis painter he is pretty average.

As for Pettigrew I am not convinced that Megatron is not helping with his numbers considering now teams actually have to respect MEgatron more than normal because now a QB can consistently get him the ball.
[/quote]

Even with statistics, it's not quantifiable how much a QB does for a QB. There are obvious instances where a QB throws his target open or the receiver bails the QB out with spectacular catch. But on a simple comeback for example, how much credit does the WR get for running a precise route and shaking the QB and how much credit does the QB get for throwing an on-time, accurate pass? It's subjective...

Why Q was traded isn't my point. Bad QB or not, Breaston didn't roll coverages away from Fitzgerald the way Q did. Both Fitz and Q played with QBs that weren't as good as Kurt before he got there and thrived.

Branch had one above-average season during his first stint with NE. And there's more talent on that offense besides Brady. He's the general and everything runs through him, but they've got some weapons and a great system.

Wayne has been on the decline for a few years and even Manning's magic couldn't hide that.

Fair enough. Pettigrew has always had talent. Stafford can get him the ball, but he's also finally healthy.

[PuRock]

[quote name='Moderator 3' timestamp='1319732664' post='840814']
So, are we no longer discussing why we haven't had a good offense for [size=5]14[/size] years?
[/quote]

That's just a minor issue. Just need some neosporin and a hello kitty bandaid and it will be as good as great.

[gabefergy]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319732334' post='840808']


Again enter the Peyton Manning effect, is Reggie Wayne really that bad. Is Fitz as bad as Leinart, Skelton,made him look or as average as Kolb.

And Titus Young and Pettigrew are actually doing really well, they are not elite but they are productive receiver's as well as Burleson.
[/quote]
I dont think Wayne is that bad, but Painter isnt anywhere close to what Manning is, and Wayne has been playing with Peyton for what 8-9 years? It takes time to build chemistry and right now Painter seems to like Garcon more, although Wayne is still getting a decent number of catches. Fitz still had 90 catches last year with who throwing him the ball? Titus Young and Burleson are not having good years at all. I repeatedly see Stafford trying to pass to them, even when they are wide open and missing by 5-10 yards. Pettigrew is having a good year, but he was good last year too and his YPC has actually gone down.

Lets take this back to our team though. The Ravens have never had a true #1 WR, since maybe Michael Jackson. I think that is a large part of why the Offense has always struggled. Also the QB play has been eternally abysmal. So many fans on here bash Flacco and I cant help but laugh thinking back on the days of Elvis Grbac and Stoney Case. Flacco is by far the best QB the Ravens have ever seen and we are now trying to build some offensive weapons around him. Hopefully Smith, Reed, Doss, and Williams will become consistent performers over time. I still dont think we have a true #1 WR on the roster, although Torrey Smith may develop into that role. Too early to tell.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='Moderator 3' timestamp='1319732664' post='840814']
So, are we no longer discussing why we haven't had a good offense for [size=5]14[/size] years?
[/quote]

Conversations do tend to evolve, an citing examples to determine what we could do better is still loosely on topic, even if they have to come form systems other teams use and the basic strategy that would go into it. I think it has been discussed as far as terrible coordinators too much attention paid to the defense, and so on. there is really only so many opinions that were going to get thrown out before it evolved to "look at what they are doing" type of thing.

Now if you shut it down or not I dont really care, There are so many other topics to comment on. Especially Cam sucks a la carte always being popular on the menu.[img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img]

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='gabefergy' timestamp='1319733383' post='840826']
I dont think Wayne is that bad, but Painter isnt anywhere close to what Manning is, and Wayne has been playing with Peyton for what 8-9 years? It takes time to build chemistry and right now Painter seems to like Garcon more, although Wayne is still getting a decent number of catches. Fitz still had 90 catches last year with who throwing him the ball? Titus Young and Burleson are not having good years at all. I repeatedly see Stafford trying to pass to them, even when they are wide open and missing by 5-10 yards. Pettigrew is having a good year, but he was good last year too and his YPC has actually gone down.
[/quote]


I was speaking to the personal performances, and with that line I am not really surprised (he is always being hit). Calvin is one of those 1 out of 3 WR's I was talking about in the league where they actually make the QB good. But lets not kid ourselves either Matthew Stafford is really entering his first year of playing so I am not shocked he has chosen a safety blanket.


AS to burleson and Young they each have about 210 yards to this point but those are his outlet guys when things go south, so normally when that happens he is under some pressure and misses the throw, we should all be able to sympathize with that.

[Tank 92]

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1319647158' post='839355']
Can't help but also blame the offenses lack of development also on the Drafting of Kyle Boller and his lack of development and the coaching staff (Billick, Fassel, etc ) lack of molding him into a solid player... We spent a number of years hoping he would breakthrough ( the same way the Niners have been doing with Alex Smith) and although its working out well for them right now its a pathetic division and they are really running it into dirt to keep the mistakes down by Smith....

[u][i][b]When Billick was here he was determined to prove Kyle Boller was worthy of his draft status [/b][/i][/u]( because we had Boller at QB T.Owens voided a trade to join our team ) and we pretty much failed at bring in any other game-breaking WR.... Billick's biggest issue to me was that he was never a "great Offensive Coordinator" in Minnesota. Even before Randy Moss was drafted Vikings had a good offense with weapons after adding Moss and setting the world on fire with deep bombs Billick thought he was an offensive genius he didn't realize it was Moss, Chris Carter, Jake Reed, and Robert Smith that made those plays so successful... He came with the same system and never acquired the talent.....
[/quote]

Don't forget Elvis(shudderrrr!!!) Grbac. Ouch!

[Tank 92]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319733423' post='840827']

Conversations do tend to evolve, an citing examples to determine what we could do better is still loosely on topic, even if they have to come form systems other teams use and the basic strategy that would go into it. I think it has been discussed as far as terrible coordinators too much attention paid to the defense, and so on. there is really only so many opinions that were going to get thrown out before it evolved to "look at what they are doing" type of thing.

Now if you shut it down or not I dont really care, There are so many other topics to comment on. [u][i][b]Especially Cam sucks a la carte always being popular on the menu.[img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.png[/img][/b][/i][/u]
[/quote]

The short and definitive answer on our offensive woes now.

[robermar]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1319731080' post='840778']

I can agree the Ravens have for years seemingly played not to lose game on offense. How the Colts defense is built around Peyton makes no sense to me though. When he and the offense are scoring points, it forces other teams to pass to keep up, which allows Freeney and Mathis to bring pressure. Still, that Peyton is good QB has no impact on the speedy, undersized defensive payers Indy drafts or that they run a Cover 2.
[/quote]

Really? Think about it. Their defense is built with having the lead in mind....having a great offense that can put up points. They have fast, undersized guys to rush the passer and play cover 2 to not get beat with the pass. They are not built to stop the run...i.e., assume a lead and maintain it so they can't come back by passing the ball. They do that because they have had a great offense (i.e., manning).

[robermar]

[quote name='Ravenseconbeast' timestamp='1319731693' post='840792']
Just mindlessly blitz at Joe Flacco and the Offense, and good things will happen for the opposing team. He made jaguars,titans rushers look like Superbowl champs.
[/quote]

That is exactly the opposite of what is happening. They are getting consistent pressure with 4 down lineman. The rest are in coverage. They are not blitzing like crazy. If you can get pressure with 4 guys, you win most games. To beat that, you need to be able to run the ball consistently well....which for some crazy reason, we can't do or are unwilling to do. That jaguars game was setup perfectly for us to have a run first mentality. We gave up on it way to quickly...

[callahan09]

[quote name='ArmyRaven52' timestamp='1319731242' post='840783']

SO it is unrelated that once Kurt Warner left that Fitz's number's went down.

Or that Deion Branch goes from nothing in Seattle but goes back to hte Pats and is productive

Or that Megatron already is 2 touchdowns away form last year and twice as many in 2009, And he finally got a good QB and is being unleashed.

Or that Moss goes from crazy productive in new england and play musical teams after that.

If you have a bad QB you are only half the receiver you could be, if you have an all-pro you could be twice as good as you really are, because now you can be thrown open. It is much more than an opinion it is documented and has been said by the likes of Dan Marino, Steve Young, Montana, you know the All-Pro types. Call it an opinion but it is widely accepted and circulated by many.
[/quote]
Honestly I believe the receivers make the QB more than the other way around, and I think what can explain what you're describes isn't so much the QB situation as the offensive coordinator situation, and the coaching in general. The way offensive plays are designed and the plays that are called & adjustments made in-game. I think also that the offensive line has a lot to do with whether or not QBs and receivers are going to get a chance to make plays. There are TONS of factors to consider in looking at reasons for a receiver's performance, and a QB's performance, and an offensive performance as a whole unit.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='callahan09' timestamp='1319737158' post='840916']
Honestly I believe the receivers make the QB more than the other way around, and I think what can explain what you're describes isn't so much the QB situation as the offensive coordinator situation, and the coaching in general. The way offensive plays are designed and the plays that are called & adjustments made in-game. I think also that the offensive line has a lot to do with whether or not QBs and receivers are going to get a chance to make plays. There are TONS of factors to consider in looking at reasons for a receiver's performance, and a QB's performance, and an offensive performance as a whole unit.
[/quote]


I am not really sure what you are saying here, can you elaborate on why you think it is the other way around.

[GrimCoconut]

I thought a lot about this subject and I don't think we're as bad as we seem. Let's look at a few specific problems on our team and how those problems have impacted us. Before we talk about those problems, let's remember our most impressive offensive performance: week 1 vs Pittsburgh.

Week 1: (PIT@BAL) Our offense dominated the game. Our run game was dominant, our passing game worked, Joe looked good, there were few sacks if any--the bottom-line is we looked like a contender. I don't have statistics in front of me right now, but I know we were really good. Then, things got ugly.

1) Offensive Line: it's obvious that the run game isn't working like it did week 1 against Pittsburgh. Joe's received more pressure since then, too. He has obviously taken more sacks. What's the difference, then? Were all the teams after Pittsburgh better than Pittsburgh? Do we just play Pittsburgh better than other teams? There is a point to us playing Pittsburgh hard, but the real difference between Week 1 & Weeks 2-6 is that we do not have Ben Grubbs. Evidence? The OL played bad against TEN, NYJ, HOU, & JAX. We played well against STL, but that's the Rams...I don't need to elaborate. When Grubbs comes back, consistency will return...as long as Oher stops giving up penalties every game.

2) Passing Game: we released Mason, Heap. Didn't resign Housh or Stallworth. The only WRs we have left from last year are Boldin & Reed. Now, Boldin's a veteran & Reed's on his second year & rarely saw the field as a rookie in the passing game. We traded for Evans, who is hurt. When did he leave? His last game was against TEN, but he was already playing hurt in that game & that's when his injury began to severly impair his game. Now we have two rookie WRs on the field with no time for learning the offense due to a lockout causing a shortened offseason. I believe once Evans comes back & the rookies get some chemistry, we will see the offense we expect. If you look at our games our WRs can't get separation, which is partially caused by the shortened offseason.

I believe Joe Flacco is a good quarterback that's getting a bad reputation because of what's happening around him. I'm not making excuses for him, but you have to look at what's around him. Yeah, QBs like Brady & Manning make WRs look better, but those are seasoned QBs and Joe just isn't yet. Flacco is going to take some more time to mature & reach the next level. I believe he is capable of winning a Super Bowl right now, but he needs the supporting cast to do it.

As for Cam, well, his lack of adjustments is frustrating to say the least.

That's all. I should really get back to driving.

[jdynamite]

[quote name='jt3751' timestamp='1319734573' post='840849']

Don't forget Elvis(shudderrrr!!!) Grbac. Ouch!
[/quote]

Well yeah but I never thought much of Grbac at KC didn't understand that and how he just retired randomly.

[deetrue00]

Flacco needs to pass more, out of the shotgun fromation cause he gets scared. He can see better from the shot gun

[Tank 92]

[quote name='jdynamite' timestamp='1319756140' post='841357']

Well yeah but I never thought much of Grbac at KC didn't understand that and how he just retired randomly.
[/quote]

Billick sure did like him.

I think Elvis left the building before he ever came in.