Why Is Our Offense So Chronically Bad?

[Moderator 3]

Why is our offense so chronically bad?

I’m seriously looking for some theories here, even if they’re off-the-wall.

Think about what we’ve tried over the years.

Cavanaugh
Fassel
Billick
Cameron

Enumerable QBs
Different RBs (both great and not so great)
A horde of WRs
Lots of different o-linemen

Nothing has ever really worked. Why?

Is it the curse of Vinnie Testaverde?

Is it because our defense has been so good and we’re not ‘entitled’ to have both a good defense and a good offense?

Is it because our defense intimidates our offense, steals their confidence, and turns them into non-performers?

Is it because we’ve never really stabilized the o-line for any length of time?

I’m nearly ready to accept the curse theory.

[EdReedFTW]

Our offense is erratic, not BAD. We simply lack rhythm and consistency. When we're on, we're ON. When we're off, we make the history books.

[Dfence4champs2052]

I think its because for years the organization has viewed offense as a complementary aspect to our superbly great defenses instead of an equal or perhaps superior role....my two cent.

[Ed_Reed20]

I'd say it's a giant conmbination of all those factors. Consistency is a huge key to NFL success and seemingly, whenever this team has had it in terms of coaching, there have been notable personnel changes for various reasons.

[PuRock]

It's a little bit of a lot of things. But in the end it comes down to bad luck.

When we've had good O-Lines, we've had no weapons in the pass game. When we have weapons in the pass game, our offensive line consistently struggles. The stars just never aligned.

Plus you have to look at the pieces that the FO gives us for offensive coaching. Billick was conservative. Harbs was a special teams guy. Cam is stubborn.

[jdynamite]

It's really just the unknown.. Because I wanted to say we spent yrs investing high draft picks on defense, but it prolly is more even balance of 1st, 2nd ,and 3rd talent drafted on offense and defense... The offensive players have rarely stepped up as true playmakers from the WR position in particular... We have had RBs, O-line player develop into solid starters then get paid by other teams, but we just never hit it big when it came to drafting or finding a WR prospect.. I would point losing talent as issue for offensive development but that isn't a valid argument since the defense has role players snatched every year, D-Coordinators have left and taken talent to other teams and the Defense has always remained solid thanks to Leadership of Ray Lewis.. with help from Ed Reed also....

Offensively we have never had a real leader on that side other than Steve McNair for 2yr period no other signal caller seemed to command respect in the Raven huddle like him... Sure we had Ogden, or strong-minded players like Mason, but they couldn't take the offense and help mold it into their image and carry it the Ray Lewis has been able to do on defense with various interchanging parts and levels of talent ( from undrafted players to 1st round picks Ray has helped to get the most out of them.)

[SideStep77]

I think it is because we stress the defense too much, and the offense gets the least attention. The Ravens have always had one of the best Ds in the league. Unfortunately if you want to be a high caliber team you need more than just stonewall defense. I think we are slowly discovering that, but it will still take some time to get everything right. We finally have a good quarterback, good receivers, good O-line when healthy. We just need to connect the pieces together and *coughfirecamcough* get some more offensive strategy going.

[jdynamite]

Can't help but also blame the offenses lack of development also on the Drafting of Kyle Boller and his lack of development and the coaching staff (Billick, Fassel, etc ) lack of molding him into a solid player... We spent a number of years hoping he would breakthrough ( the same way the Niners have been doing with Alex Smith) and although its working out well for them right now its a pathetic division and they are really running it into dirt to keep the mistakes down by Smith....

When Billick was here he was determined to prove Kyle Boller was worthy of his draft status ( because we had Boller at QB T.Owens voided a trade to join our team ) and we pretty much failed at bring in any other game-breaking WR.... Billick's biggest issue to me was that he was never a "great Offensive Coordinator" in Minnesota. Even before Randy Moss was drafted Vikings had a good offense with weapons after adding Moss and setting the world on fire with deep bombs Billick thought he was an offensive genius he didn't realize it was Moss, Chris Carter, Jake Reed, and Robert Smith that made those plays so successful... He came with the same system and never acquired the talent.....

[Raven146]

In a big Part because of Billick.
[quote name='Moderator 3' timestamp='1319643011' post='839266']
Why is our offense so chronically bad?

I’m seriously looking for some theories here, even if they’re off-the-wall.

Think about what we’ve tried over the years.

Cavanaugh
Fassel
Billick
Cameron

Enumerable QBs
Different RBs (both great and not so great)
A horde of WRs
Lots of different o-linemen

Nothing has ever really worked. Why?

Is it the curse of Vinnie Testaverde?

Is it because our defense has been so good and we’re not ‘entitled’ to have both a good defense and a good offense?

Is it because our defense intimidates our offense, steals their confidence, and turns them into non-performers?

Is it because we’ve never really stabilized the o-line for any length of time?

I’m nearly ready to accept the curse theory.
[/quote]

Cavanaugh Billick's buddy , who demanded the QB threw only to whom he decided it should go to, with thought of the defense or check downs.
Fassel hired by Billick to protect him from being seen as inept in putting together an offense.
Cam hired by Billick, to take the heat for the offense, who as a head coach for Miami loss all but the game he played except against Billick. And cam does the same thing that Cavanaugh did , he calls the receiver. Watch his plays, look where he places receivers. He has timing patterns that are button hooks, but stops all motion easy man on man coverage. His slants are not slants. He works to set pass plays to be 3 yards or 40 no in-between. Receivers do not work to give targets , they become stumps on the field. Rookie receivers , or no play time learning how to be vets at the cost of the offense. Running plays are copies of other offenses, nothing simple and straight forward. And if the play proves to be bad it isn't the play it is the players, Execution of his brilliant play.
Billick lost his job because of it , but we are still playing Billick ball.

[I AM LEGEND]

I also wondered this same thing the other night...only in the Steve Mcnair year did I not worry about this offense..that's 1 year out of what 16...

I know our DNA has always been smash mouth to go with the smash mouth defense but maybe its time to go the Saint, Packers style of play and spread the field and force THIS team to pit points on the board...I know people wanna see Ray touch the ball out the backfield and do the classic RB thing but even with a spread out offense he can still get touches ala Marshall Faulk for the Rams..

My only thought as to why They may not wanna do thay type of offense is bc they don't have faith in Flacco or the OL....but we've seen Flacco line up in the max protects and I-forms and he's struggling getting the ball to the 2-3 options he having in those plays...time to send out 3 Receivers a TE and have Rice and in the back and make defenses WORK!

[robermar]

I hope this does not come across the wrong way, but I think it might have a lot to do with Ray Lewis. I could be full of crap, but bear with me here. Ray Lewis is almost like a deity on this team. He shapes everything around him. He is the sun and everyone gravitates around him and for him. He plays on the defensive side of the ball. How this team drafts, trains, game plans and plays is affected by it. The defensive side of the ball comes out on the other end as the dominant group and the offense has sort of played second fiddle. The results speak for themselves. This is probably natural considering how incredible of a player he is and how long he has been on the team. He is the Ravens.

[robermar]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1319648387' post='839398']
I also wondered this same thing the other night...only in the Steve Mcnair year did I not worry about this offense..that's 1 year out of what 16...

I know our DNA has always been smash mouth to go with the smash mouth defense but maybe its time to go the Saint, Packers style of play and spread the field and force THIS team to pit points on the board...I know people wanna see Ray touch the ball out the backfield and do the classic RB thing but even with a spread out offense he can still get touches ala Marshall Faulk for the Rams..

My only thought as to why They may not wanna do thay type of offense is bc they don't have faith in Flacco or the OL....but we've seen Flacco line up in the max protects and I-forms and he's struggling getting the ball to the 2-3 options he having in those plays...time to send out 3 Receivers a TE and have Rice and in the back and make defenses WORK!
[/quote]

Its been somewhat of a common theme, though, that Flacco has trouble working through his progressions consistently. So, if he has problems working through 2 or 3 options....how will he do with 4 or 5?

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='Raven146' timestamp='1319647671' post='839373']
In a big Part because of Billick.

Cavanaugh Billick's buddy , who demanded the QB threw only to whom he decided it should go to, with thought of the defense or check downs.
Fassel hired by Billick to protect him from being seen as inept in putting together an offense.
Cam hired by Billick, to take the heat for the offense, who as a head coach for Miami loss all but the game he played except against Billick. And cam does the same thing that Cavanaugh did , he calls the receiver. Watch his plays, look where he places receivers. He has timing patterns that are button hooks, but stops all motion easy man on man coverage. His slants are not slants. He works to set pass plays to be 3 yards or 40 no in-between. Receivers do not work to give targets , they become stumps on the field. Rookie receivers , or no play time learning how to be vets at the cost of the offense. [b]Running plays are copies of other offenses, nothing simple and straight forward.[/b] And if the play proves to be bad it isn't the play it is the players, Execution of his brilliant play.
Billick lost his job because of it , but we are still playing Billick ball.
[/quote]

This line made me chuckle. What exactly constitutes a "copy"? And if by "simple and straight-forward", you mean runs like dives, draws stretches, tosses, sweeps etc., [i]all[/i] offenses have those runs in their play-book.

[SuRihtanil]

We just lack a consistent quarterback, we have weapons on offense, but you have to be able to read defenses. You have to be able to audible out and get the ball to those weapons. Once our offensive gameplan has been made its all she wrote, because our QB relies to much on the coaching staff to tell him what to do on every down, he can't take matters into his own hands and get things done when the game is on his shoulders... Its why so much time was wore off the clock late in the 4th, Joe Flacco couldn't run a hurry up because he needed to get the plays from Cam, sad but true.

[KillaBirdTJ]

I think its stubborness and unwillingness to adapt and try new approaches when the one we are trying doesn' t work! We seem to stick with does not work until its too late... Mainly coaches is what Im referring too.

I like Harbs but dislike Harbs unconditional devotion to Flacco... granted the OL is still a work in progress, but Flacco just does not play like a Raven! When the chips are down he is either rattled and becomes more clumsy, makes more bad decisions, or he just becomes this zombie-like QB looking lost with a deer in headlights look.

Someone needs to grow some and try something else before this season ends like the last three! Im sorry but Flacco is horrible... look at how thery build a pro-bowl offense around him but he still is mediocre or worse? Imagine him trading places with Cam Newton and tell me then how their stats and wins would compare? Cam would have over 500 total yards every week while Flacco would average aruond 200.

Give Tyrod a look and stop being stubborn.

"But hes just a rookie" So is Newton, and so was Flacco the year we went to the AFC Championship...
"Hes a 5th round pick" So was Tom Brady.

Stop making excuses and blaming everything else Ravens fans! If we dont demand better right NOW we will be just as much to blame as Flacco nd Flacco is wayyyy to slow, this is his 4th season! Cmon Man!!!

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='robermar' timestamp='1319648418' post='839399']
I hope this does not come across the wrong way, but I think it might have a lot to do with Ray Lewis. I could be full of crap, but bear with me here. Ray Lewis is almost like a deity on this team. He shapes everything around him. He is the sun and everyone gravitates around him and for him. He plays on the defensive side of the ball. How this team drafts, trains, game plans and plays is affected by it. The defensive side of the ball comes out on the other end as the dominant group and the offense has sort of played second fiddle. The results speak for themselves. This is probably natural considering how incredible of a player he is and how long he has been on the team. He is the Ravens.
[/quote]

Ray obviously affects the defensive side of the ball. We've seen formation changes centered around his changing skills. We've seen players drafted to protect him. And we've definitely seen him lead and inspire guys on defense to play well.

I really don't see how any of that translates negatively to the offense though. It has nothing to do with him that players on offense have continuously made boneheaded mistakes for years and the offense game-planning has frequently been lackluster.

[I AM LEGEND]

[quote name='robermar' timestamp='1319648539' post='839405']


Its been somewhat of a common theme, though, that Flacco has trouble working through his progressions consistently. So, if he has problems working through 2 or 3 options....how will he do with 4 or 5?
[/quote]

I agree..my thing is...

Not once has anyone come out from the Organization and say this is specifically what Flacco struggles with...not being able to read his progressions quick enuff or at all has kinda been a "fan" knock on Flacco..but if the organization knows in their heart of hearts that isn't capable of running a particular offense due to his inability to do so...they need to be real with themselves and cut ties with him...do we really want a QB here that can't play a particular offense...

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='KillaBirdTJ' timestamp='1319648865' post='839417']
I think its stubborness and unwillingness to adapt and try new approaches when the one we are trying doesn' t work! We seem to stick with does not work until its too late... Mainly coaches is what Im referring too.

I like Harbs but dislike Harbs unconditional devotion to Flacco... granted the OL is still a work in progress, but Flacco just does not play like a Raven! When the chips are down he is either rattled and becomes more clumsy, makes more bad decisions, or he just becomes this zombie-like QB looking lost with a deer in headlights look.

Someone needs to grow some and try something else before this season ends like the last three! Im sorry but Flacco is horrible... [b]look at how thery build a pro-bowl offense around him [/b]but he still is mediocre or worse? Imagine him trading places with Cam Newton and tell me then how their stats and wins would compare? Cam would have over 500 total yards every week while Flacco would average aruond 200.

Give Tyrod a look and stop being stubborn.

"But hes just a rookie" So is Newton, and so was Flacco the year we went to the AFC Championship...
"Hes a 5th round pick" So was Tom Brady.

Stop making excuses and blaming everything else Ravens fans! If we dont demand better right NOW we will be just as much to blame as Flacco nd Flacco is wayyyy to slow, this is his 4th season! Cmon Man!!!
[/quote]

Flacco has a number of issues but he doesn't have a Pro Bowl offense around him. There have been individuals that made Pro Bowls in the past but outside of Rice, Neal in '08, maybe Leach right now and a few o-lineman over the years, no one on offense has been Pro Bowl caliber during Joe's time here.

[I AM LEGEND]

Look its no secret that in our 16 years of existence why we can only point to the Steve Mcnair year as the year we had a GOOD and consistently good offense.


Good Quarterbacks do good things..

Unfortunately for us we got Steve when he only had 1 year left in him...

Do I Wanna go get another young QB that we have to spend another 4 years developing just to see if he makes it..no

But I do think we should go the route we did with Steve and see if we can get a veteran QB that can make things happen next year...let's get the Matt hasslebeck of next year...I just don't know who that guy is...maybe David Garrad? Who knows

[stormie]

They've always tried to make their defense #1. When you constantly look for defensive players and don't build your offense up that's going to happen. How many years now have they actually been seriously concentrating on the offense more? 4 maybe? Since Harbaugh started here?

Now that they started REALLY working on the offense, it's going to take a little while. JMO

[I AM LEGEND]

[quote name='stormie' timestamp='1319649731' post='839456']
They've always tried to make their defense #1. When you constantly look for defensive players and don't build your offense up that's going to happen. How many years now have they actually been seriously concentrating on the offense more? 4 maybe? Since Harbaugh started here?

Now that they started REALLY working on the offense, it's going to take a little while. JMO
[/quote]

I'm not buying the whole argument of The Ravens have focused on defense more

The Ravens have used some pretty high draft picks on offense.(Boller, Taylor,Clayton, Oher, etc..) some of those guys just didn't last long..they've never really had to worry about the RB position..Jamal was so good for so many years..

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1319649267' post='839439']
[b]Look its no secret that in our 16 years of existence why we can only point to the Steve Mcnair year as the year we had a GOOD and consistently good offense.[/b]


Good Quarterbacks do good things..

Unfortunately for us we got Steve when he only had 1 year left in him...

Do I Wanna go get another young QB that we have to spend another 4 years developing just to see if he makes it..no

But I do think we should go the route we did with Steve and see if we can get a veteran QB that can make things happen next year...let's get the Matt hasslebeck of next year...I just don't know who that guy is...maybe David Garrad? Who knows
[/quote]

The offense in '09 was better across the board than it was in '06.

[I AM LEGEND]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1319650042' post='839468']


The offense in '09 was better across the board than it was in '06.
[/quote]

Maybe statistically...but if I had to put my money on one team going out there and getting points id go with the Steve Mcnair led Ravens of 06..you knew what u were getting from them..that's why I used the word consistent..

[Ed_Reed20]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1319650336' post='839476']
Maybe statistically...but if I had to put my money on one team going out there and getting points id go with the Steve Mcnair led Ravens of 06..you knew what u were getting from them..that's why I used the word consistent..
[/quote]

Fair enough. McNair and company staged some nice comebacks, but I remember a lot of short runs by Jamal and some truly dink and dunk passing.

They were shut down a few games but the '09 unit was definitely more explosive and consistently scored more.

[robermar]

[quote name='Ed_Reed20' timestamp='1319648893' post='839418']

Ray obviously affects the defensive side of the ball. We've seen formation changes centered around his changing skills. We've seen players drafted to protect him. And we've definitely seen him lead and inspire guys on defense to play well.

I really don't see how any of that translates negatively to the offense though. It has nothing to do with him that players on offense have continuously made boneheaded mistakes for years and the offense game-planning has frequently been lackluster.
[/quote]

It can affect your game plan. It affects how you operate on offense. If you have a dominate defensive player running a dominant defense...the game plan on offense is not to lose the game. The offense plays it close to the vest...at least that is what I have seen from the Ravens every year. It's like the Colts and Peyton Manning. Except the dominant player is on offense. The defense is molded around the fact that they have a dominent offensive player running a dominant offense. Their defense is built around that....their players and scheme.

[Moderator 3]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1319650000' post='839464']
I'm not buying the whole argument of The Ravens have focused on defense more

The Ravens have used some pretty high draft picks on offense.(Boller, Taylor,Clayton, Oher, etc..) some of those guys just didn't last long..they've never really had to worry about the RB position..Jamal was so good for so many years..
[/quote]


Maybe the 'wasted' high draft picks on offense is a big part of the problem. Perhaps our Front Office is better at evaluating defensive players than offensive players. There has to be a reason for the repeated failures.

There's no sense blaming this historical trend on Flacco...he was in high-school and college for most of it.

[robermar]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1319648905' post='839420']

I agree..my thing is...

Not once has anyone come out from the Organization and say this is specifically what Flacco struggles with...not being able to read his progressions quick enuff or at all has kinda been a "fan" knock on Flacco..but if the organization knows in their heart of hearts that isn't capable of running a particular offense due to his inability to do so...they need to be real with themselves and cut ties with him...do we really want a QB here that can't play a particular offense...
[/quote]

True, very true...on all counts.

[robermar]

[quote name='I AM LEGEND' timestamp='1319649267' post='839439']
Look its no secret that in our 16 years of existence why we can only point to the Steve Mcnair year as the year we had a GOOD and consistently good offense.


Good Quarterbacks do good things..

Unfortunately for us we got Steve when he only had 1 year left in him...

Do I Wanna go get another young QB that we have to spend another 4 years developing just to see if he makes it..no

But I do think we should go the route we did with Steve and see if we can get a veteran QB that can make things happen next year...let's get the Matt hasslebeck of next year...I just don't know who that guy is...maybe David Garrad? Who knows
[/quote]

I can't agree on the Steve Mcnair year being a good offense. That offense was aaavverage. very average. their ranking was middle of the pack. And, I remember every game from that year....the offense stunk it up in a number of games. The Ravens have not had a good offense since 96/97. Every year since has been average to poor.

[PurpleReign92]

There is no excuses in this league... I'm not going to lie. We got beat, woke up on the wrong side of the bed on Monday now the offensive lineman needs to tighten up and help Joe move the chains. Otherwise it is going to be a long season and we are going to be at the bottom of the pile...

[EdReedFTW]

[quote name='Moderator 3' timestamp='1319653991' post='839576']


Maybe the 'wasted' high draft picks on offense is a big part of the problem. Perhaps our Front Office is better at evaluating defensive players than offensive players. There has to be a reason for the repeated failures.

There's no sense blaming this historical trend on Flacco...he was in high-school and college for most of it.
[/quote]

You know, I thought it might just be a scouting issue with the offensive players also. If you think about it, when was the last time we got a productive offensive player that we picked in the middle rounds? And not just offensive linemen who normally go in the middle rounds. On defense we keep finding quality late round/free agent players (Ellerbe/McClain, McPhee, Adalius Thomas..) But on offense we just dont find those hidden gems. I think that's why the offense suffers. The offense doesnt have the hidden talent that the defense is driven by.