MERGED: Offense Identity?

[Militant X 1]

ok...i have literally torched Flacco's gameplay along with our pathetic bad-new-bearish offense for a few posts now. i'll probably make a few more later on...but...this thread is about what you feel our offensive "identity" should be in order to win games. my take is this:

1. go back to our old [i][b]"Smash Mouth" [/b][/i]run first identity
2. establish the run and let it set the tone for the game
3. utilize our TE sets/packages
4. utilize more unbalanced sets
5. run the play action off of the run game
6. run more screens, draws, and quick slants
7. don't put the game on Flacco's shoulders or in his hands alone to win it for us!
8. defense? keep doing what you are doing and keep improving

simply "pound" the defense into submission!

[b]P.S. [/b]this is what i do on Madden 12 and i am on a 8 game win streak...LOL!!!

~Mili

[T3hRaven]

You don't win the Super Bowl in this league playing that kind of football anymore. This is a passing league now, like it or not. If you could win the Super Bowl playing smash mouth football the Jets would have a real shot at it, but as we all know they don't.

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1319564609' post='837454']
[u][b]You don't win the Super Bowl in this league playing that kind of football anymore. This is a passing league now, like it or not[/b][/u]. If you could win the Super Bowl playing smash mouth football the Jets would have a real shot at it, but as we all know they don't.
[/quote]

and you don't win Super Bowls with performances like last night! i get what you are saying about the "passing" league...but that is not the Ravens offense bruh!

play action is passing! screens is passing! slants is passing! all of those things can be done effectively once the run has been established! and when the deep shots down field are there? take'em! but until then...pound the rock! cause at the end of the day...that is who this Ravens offense is!

~Mili

[usmccharles]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1319564609' post='837454']
You don't win the Super Bowl in this league playing that kind of football anymore. This is a passing league now, like it or not. If you could win the Super Bowl playing smash mouth football the Jets would have a real shot at it, but as we all know they don't.
[/quote]

Way wrong IMO. It may be a passing league, but look at the teams that are a elite passing team, they dont have a rb worth running the ball 20+ times a game. you set your game plan to what ever your strengths are. Running the ball is a great way to keep a brady, rodgers, or a manning off the field. With rice, williams and leach we should be doing this more, but it looks like our Oline is falling apart. Jets couldnt win the SB because their defense choked in both AFC championship games, not too mention their running game was far from "smash mouth".

[Twistidfunk]

I still think a running game is important. If you can run the ball you can control the clock. Keep the other offense off the field and limit their opportunities to score. With our Defense we could certainly do it.

After last night though, I just don't think we have the line for it.

[Guest RBates]

Number 7, we need to stop trying to make this kid elite, and help him by not putting the game in his hands, Ever

[AlaskanRavensFan]

The offensive line isn't ready yet to pass protect for the majority of a game, and they may never be. However, I have seen them get push in the running game and manhandle good defenses even when they knew it was coming. (Jets and Steelers) Granted Grubbs was in instead of Gurode against the Steelers. The Ravens need to play the style of offense that best suits their personnel. Right now they have 1 Pro Bowl receiver, a speedy vet and two rookies. They've got two talented but inexperienced TE's, a Pro Bowl RB and an offensive line that has trouble pass protecting. It would be nice if the Ravens could do both exceptionally well, but they don't have the personnel right now to play that style of offense against elite opponents, or the Jaguars evidently.

However, there is no reason to worry about not being the AFC North version of the Packers. It's not about how you win, it's about who you can win against. If the Ravens can run against elite defenses then they can win the Superbowl as surely as any other "elite team" in the league. If you can run, you can run play action effectively, which Flacco actually has proven he can do. It allows you to control TOP and keep the other team's offense off the field.

[The Raven]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1319564609' post='837454']
You don't win the Super Bowl in this league playing that kind of football anymore. This is a passing league now, like it or not. If you could win the Super Bowl playing smash mouth football the Jets would have a real shot at it, but as we all know they don't.
[/quote]

Can you prove to me that its impossible to do so?

We need to go back to it to a degree. You still have to be capable of throwing the football. I think it needs to be 60-40 run pass. Now obviously we have to change that a bit if the run game isn't working but you can't give up on it. I wanna see a run game. Multiple TE sets. Screens. Physicality. I want to absolutely dominate time of possession!

One way to beat the modern passing game is to dominate time of possession with smashmouth football. And when you have a defense like ours, we could absolutely shut down teams if we can just win TOP. But, you need to keep the clock running to do that. That means no three and outs. No incomplete passes. Or at least very few. A strong running game. Can we do that? I think we're capable of it. Its really a matter of will we do it.

[ball hawkin 20]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1319591479' post='838576']

Can you prove to me that its impossible to do so?

We need to go back to it to a degree. You still have to be capable of throwing the football. I think it needs to be 60-40 run pass. Now obviously we have to change that a bit if the run game isn't working but you can't give up on it. I wanna see a run game. Multiple TE sets. Screens. Physicality. I want to absolutely dominate time of possession!

One way to beat the modern passing game is to dominate time of possession with smashmouth football. And when you have a defense like ours, we could absolutely shut down teams if we can just win TOP. But, you need to keep the clock running to do that. That means no three and outs. No incomplete passes. Or at least very few. A strong running game. Can we do that? I think we're capable of it. Its really a matter of will we do it.
[/quote]

Edited - quoted wp

[ball hawkin 20]

[quote name='T3hRaven' timestamp='1319564609' post='837454']
You don't win the Super Bowl in this league playing that kind of football anymore. This is a passing league now, like it or not. If you could win the Super Bowl playing smash mouth football the Jets would have a real shot at it, but as we all know they don't.
[/quote]

Steelers came close if that counts

[Romo Ravens]

I really dislike this style of play, but we were so successful doing it Flacco's rookie season. I like high octane, fast paced offenses. But whatever helps us win.

[spockmckoy]

look at Flacco's eyes. half the time he looks like a deer in the headlights wondering if someone is gonna shank em'.....................

[PeRK82]

Here is what i want to know, If our Oline couldnt block , why didnt we keep a T.E in there to help out.

Also, why in the world is Rice in there to block when we have Vonta Leech, the Defense knew when we were going to throw and when we were going to run, its so Obvious. So if they know, why isnt Vonta in there to block.

[wayne]

Like someone already said before, we need to stop trying to make Flacco be elite and go back to our roots. Time to change the philosophy with putting the game on Flacco shoulders back into game mananger for the time being. The ultimate goal is for us to win the SB, not for Flacco to be a elite QB. I feel Flacco could every now and then give us an elite performance but to constantly game in and game out put it on his shoulders, I don't think he is to be trusted.

Anywa, with how Flacco has came along now with better weapons, Flacco has the potential to be the best game manager in the league . Smashmouth football with the D we have with an much improved Flacco and offense, we definitely could win the SB.

[Runnin Raven]

We don't know who we are on offense. Joe wants to air it out, Cam seems confused. Simply put we need to get back to [b]smashmouth[/b] football. Run the ball, control the clock, get turnovers with our rabid D. The good news? Joe is better than Trent Dilfer, as are some of his weapons.

We need to be willing to [b]punch people in the mouth[/b] on offense. Michael Oher can handle that. Yanda can also. Run the ball a lot, ask Joe to complete short to intermediate stuff, occasional long ball, mostly to keep people off balance, be willing to punt and try again until we find the weak spots. Hate to say it, but Joe really can't do it mostly himself like some QBs in this league *glances westward*.

We need to have an attitude on offense. We have the personnel. We can win it all with a "game manager".

[Jamal]

I've always found the whole "identity" thing overrated.

Who cares what your identity is. Just go score some points. I don't care if that means Rice and Williams having 30 attempts between them, or Flacco throwing 50 times.

[Runnin Raven]

Mods thanks for merging my post with this thread - didn't see it.

[wayne]

[quote name='Jamal' timestamp='1319668620' post='840004']
I've always found the whole "identity" thing overrated.

Who cares what your identity is. Just go score some points. I don't care if that means Rice and Williams having 30 attempts between them, or Flacco throwing 50 times.
[/quote]

Well, in our case its not overrated b/c it seems we don't have the ability to adapt so you might as well find a identity and stick with it and feed off of it letting it open up everything else. Now, this would apply to teams like GB and NE perfectly but not for us.

[Jamal]

[quote name='wayne' timestamp='1319669940' post='840026']
Well, in our case its not overrated b/c it seems we don't have the ability to adapt so you might as well find a identity and stick with it and feed off of it letting it open up everything else. Now, this would apply to teams like GB and NE perfectly but not for us.
[/quote]
What we lack is urgency or the ability to adjust according to the defense you're facing.

Don't see anything related to identity in that.

For example if we are supposed to be a run first team, and are facing a team that is stout against the run, but can be torched in the secondary, anyone with common sense is going after that secondary. You might be a smash mouth football team, but if the run isn't working or vice versa, you have to adjust accordingly.

[redrum52]

The offenses identity is to do what doesnt work against that team and hope it works. Cam cant coordinate [profanity deleted] and Flacco cant read Dr Seuss let alone a defense. Never see them reviewing plays on the sideline or trying to figure out whats wrong. We have a better chance with Ray Rice calling the offence and praying for the best.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

Right now our identity is inconsistent.

[The Raven]

[quote name='PeRK82' timestamp='1319593443' post='838642']
Here is what i want to know, If our Oline couldnt block , why didnt we keep a T.E in there to help out.

Also, why in the world is Rice in there to block when we have Vonta Leech, the Defense knew when we were going to throw and when we were going to run, its so Obvious. So if they know, why isnt Vonta in there to block.
[/quote]

Well, as bad as the offensive line was in pass protection, the WRs were horrible too. Nobody was open, and to be honest, they made the offensive line's performance look even worse by their inability to get open. Sending tight ends out on routes would help the passing game, and maybe, just maybe, might help the WRs get open. I might be wrong on that one, but I always thought that keeping 7-8 guys in to block hurts the passing game. The TE needs to be involved to help the WRs.

Rice is in because... he keeps the defense honest. If Leach comes in for the shotgun 1 RB set, the defense expects a pass, and expects Leach to be blocking. With Rice in as the loneback, the defense has no idea whats coming.

[PeRK82]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1319671909' post='840069']

Well, as bad as the offensive line was in pass protection, the WRs were horrible too. Nobody was open, and to be honest, they made the offensive line's performance look even worse by their inability to get open. Sending tight ends out on routes would help the passing game, and maybe, just maybe, might help the WRs get open. I might be wrong on that one[b], but I always thought that keeping 7-8 guys in to block [/b]hurts the passing game. The TE needs to be involved to help the WRs.

Rice is in because... he keeps the defense honest. If Leach comes in for the shotgun 1 RB set, the defense expects a pass, and expects Leach to be blocking. With Rice in as the loneback, the defense has no idea whats coming.
[/quote]


We had 6 guys to block on one play and they only rushed 4 and still got to Joe like they werent even touched, I wouldnt blame the WR , If anything it was the O line. But here is a thought, if Joe wasnt getting anytime to set up, Why wasnt he in the Shotgun more(which would have atleast bought him an extra 1 second to 1.5 seconds), Also we could have did a quick slant, which we did attempt maybe 2 times in the beginning of the game. Like i said before the Defense knew what play we were going to do, to me why even try to confuse them.(It Never works, the Defense stacks the Box and we still try and run it up the middle, come on man, Rice might get through once in a while but he in more dangerous imo in the flats, he makes guys miss). How bout just try and protect Flacco atleast once out of 3 downs. Vonta is a beast of blocker, he should have been in there more to just Block. Not go into motion.

Another Problem i had was, yea Rice fumbled, so what, yea he missed a very catchable check down. so what. Why in the world would you Put R.Williams in there to run instead of Rice. Williams is done in my book, this isnt 10yrs ago. We have a better running back that should be our Number 2 and his name is A.Allen.

Since the Playcalling hasnt changed, i say lets just go back to the Check downs to Rice on every play. It worked Last yr.

[The Raven]

[quote name='PeRK82' timestamp='1319673191' post='840104']


We had 6 guys to block on one play and they only rushed 4 and still got to Joe like they werent even touched, I wouldnt blame the WR , If anything it was the O line. But here is a thought, if Joe wasnt getting anytime to set up, Why wasnt he in the Shotgun more(which would have atleast bought him an extra 1 second to 1.5 seconds), Also we could have did a quick slant, which we did attempt maybe 2 times in the beginning of the game. Like i said before the Defense knew what play we were going to do, to me why even try to confuse them.(It Never works, the Defense stacks the Box and we still try and run it up the middle, come on man, Rice might get through once in a while but he in more dangerous imo in the flats, he makes guys miss). How bout just try and protect Flacco atleast once out of 3 downs. Vonta is a beast of blocker, he should have been in there more to just Block. Not go into motion.

Another Problem i had was, yea Rice fumbled, so what, yea he missed a very catchable check down. so what. Why in the world would you Put R.Williams in there to run instead of Rice. Williams is done in my book, this isnt 10yrs ago. We have a better running back that should be our Number 2 and his name is A.Allen.

Since the Playcalling hasnt changed, i say lets just go back to the Check downs to Rice on every play. It worked Last yr.
[/quote]

You can't look at one, single play to make a judgement about an entire game. Thats rediculous. When the OL did provide protection, Flacco had nowhere to throw to. Nowhere. Also, Leach is in to block. Thats his job as a FB. Even if he gets sent into motion, he still blocks on the play, contrary to what you're suggesting. Also, it doesn't matter if the defense knows the play! If the play is executed correctly, it will work! I can say that from personal experience!

Because he's a change of pace back. He gives Rice a breather He provides a different running style than Ray. He's a smasher back. Also, if he's so [u][i]"done"[/i][/u] than why is he and Rice's average identical? They both have a 4.4 YPC average. Hmm...

Yeah, cuz that totally worked. We won the superbowl with a bunch of checkdowns. Nope. We didn't. Our offense was anemic last year, especially in the playoffs. They shut down the dump offs in the playoffs last year.

[RavensAllTheWay]

Pass to take the lead, run to protect the lead. That's definitely what works best for this offense. Last year, the problem was our inability to provide steady run blocking up front and we actually got off the field quicker, which is the contrary of taking time off the clock, and our defense ran out of gas. We really don't seem to have that concern this season, since we drained a lot of clock in a lot of our wins and our defense has much more young, quality depth. This formula is not going to lend itself to many 300 yard games for Flacco, maybe not even 250 sometimes, but it damn sure gets us the W.

[PeRK82]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1319674209' post='840146']

[b]You can't look at one, single play to make a judgement about an entire game[/b]. Thats rediculous. When the OL did provide protection, Flacco had nowhere to throw to. Nowhere. Also, Leach is in to block. Thats his job as a FB. Even if he gets sent into motion, he still blocks on the play, contrary to what you're suggesting. Also, it doesn't matter if the defense knows the play! If the play is executed correctly, it will work! I can say that from personal experience!

Because he's a change of pace back. He gives Rice a breather He provides a different running style than Ray. He's a smasher back. Also, if he's so [u][i]"done"[/i][/u] than why is he and Rice's average identical? They both have a 4.4 YPC average. Hmm...

Yeah, cuz that totally worked. We won the superbowl with a bunch of checkdowns. Nope. We didn't. Our offense was anemic last year, especially in the playoffs. They shut down the dump offs in the playoffs last year.
[/quote]

That was 1 example, im not going to tell you how many times i seen it because im hoping you watched the game too. Did you see why the WR couldnt get open, They sent out 4 wr and put Rice in motion as the 5 th. Guess what they all did the exact same route,(curl).


Like i said, Williams is Done in my book. A.Allen is just like Williams except younger, faster , stronger,bigger.

[The Raven]

[quote name='PeRK82' timestamp='1319675180' post='840190']

That was 1 example, im not going to tell you how many times i seen it because im hoping you watched the game too. Did you see why the WR couldnt get open, They sent out 4 wr and put Rice in motion as the 5 th. Guess what they all did the exact same route,(curl).


Like i said, Williams is Done in my book. A.Allen is just like Williams except younger, faster , stronger,bigger.
[/quote]

Okay. I'm sure that 4 WRs ran a curl. Cam is bad, but I really don't think he's that bad... [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

How is he done? Explain this to me in great detail. I don't understand how he can have the same average as Rice, but he's done. Is Rice done too? That's what your logic is suggesting. And for the record, Williams is listed as heavier than Allen.

[PeRK82]

[quote name='The Raven' timestamp='1319675386' post='840201']

Okay. I'm sure that 4 WRs ran a curl. Cam is bad, but I really don't think he's that bad... [img]http://content.boards.baltimoreravens.com//public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

How is he done? Explain this to me in great detail. I don't understand how he can have the same average as Rice, but he's done. Is Rice done too? That's what your logic is suggesting. And for the record, [b]Williams is listed as heavier than Allen.[/b]
[b][/quote][/b]

Honestly i really could care what his stats are and if they are identical, does he get as many carries as Rice , not at all. So of course his average will be a bit higher, i would hope so. When i watch the RAVENS, i see Williams for the most part getting no more than 2 yds, if that. Yea he will get a break out run, I think i counted 2 maybe 3. Thats it.

Oh Williams being heavier than Allen, opps, sorry dont have a stat sheet on me and dont feel like looking it up. Allen might not be as heavy but he is more than likely stronger.

I shouldnt have to cussing up a storm when i see Williams in the back field because there is a good chance im about to see a Fumble.

I hated, i mean hated Mcgshee but i would love to have him here instead of Williams and that is saying alot. Because anyone who knows me personally knew how much i disliked mcgahee.

[The Raven]

[quote name='PeRK82' timestamp='1319676208' post='840224']
[/b]

[b]Honestly i really could care what his stats are and if they are identical, does he get as many carries as Rice , not at all. So of course his average will be a bit higher, i would hope so.[/b] When i watch the RAVENS, i see Williams for the most part getting no more than 2 yds, if that. Yea he will get a break out run, I think i counted 2 maybe 3. Thats it.

Oh Williams being heavier than Allen, opps, sorry dont have a stat sheet on me and dont feel like looking it up. Allen might not be as heavy but he is more than likely stronger.

I shouldnt have to cussing up a storm when i see Williams in the back field because there is a good chance im about to see a Fumble.

I hated, i mean hated Mcgshee but i would love to have him here instead of Williams and that is saying alot. Because anyone who knows me personally knew how much i disliked mcgahee.
[/quote]

What kind of sense does that make? Are you saying Rice never has 6 runs for 2 yards each, but then has 1 for 50? That's why its called an [u][i][b]average[/b][/i][/u] my friend. Thats kinda how running the football works. Do you really think Rice gets 4.4 yards on every carry? Rice has a plethora of runs that only go for 2 yards. But he also has plenty of runs that go for 10+ yards. That's why we have an average....

Rice has 97 carries. Williams has 38. I think thats a pretty respectable distribution. And I think 38 carries for Williams is enough to justify making an inference about his running ability and it's correlation to his YPC average. Stats don't lie.

Dont get your beef with the guy. And I still don't have an actual answer as to why he's done.

[wayne]

Versus teams the rush their front 4 rather zone or man, we need a good game from the TE. Seam routes, 6 yard hitch routes, in's and out's..... the TE has to show up facing teams like that.