Has Joe Hit The Ceiling?

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='Quoth' timestamp='1319562333' post='837326']
Flacco looks brilliant one game and retarded during others. What gives with this? Despite the inconsistent play, I still lay most of the blame for the lost games this season (and last year) on the play calling. When I can guess what the offensive play will be most of the time, so can the opposing defense. [b]That's bad news since I've only played football on a TV screen, lol.[/b]
[/quote]

LMAO. I hear you though. What good is it to have a great game every three games. It doesn't add up. Maybe we should revert to him as the game manager again. Should we go back to ground and pound with Ray and Ricky? I mean Rice is the real catalyst of the offense. It has never been Joe. I can only think of two games Joe was the cataylst and only one was this year.

[Haloti Hell]

Joe benefits from a mostly above average supporting cast. O line isn't great but does good enough on most days. Our run game can single handedly shut down opponents on most days. The receiving corps isn't star studded but close and very capable. And nothing needs to be said about our defense because they speak for themselves. Games like last night when things just aren't ticking, the qb has to step up and lead an umotivated offense and the offensive plays need to overcome opposing defensive challenges. Both failed last night.

Personally, I think Joe looks better than he is because of his support and Cam's a one trick pony that teams with the right defensive balance will always be able to shut down. Sadly, I don't think we'll ever get beyond a few early post season departures with the current combination. I hope to be proven wrong, but the clock is ticking.

[traumakings]

I think most of you are forgetting alot of things, specifically:

Chemistry with Receivers: Whats it been, two years with Q? Not even one with Torrey, Doss, LaQuan. Evans is out. The TE's are still young and make valid mistakes. Chemistry plays a huge part, and if you notice around the league, all the top QB's have a developed relationship with their receiving corp. Until Joe has a unit that has gelled for 2-3 years, you can't assume he is suspect. It makes a huge difference, the connection between QB and Receiver, small things, that can lead to a first down by a small adjustment, or a TD from knowing whats on the mind of each other. Prime example is the Colts. The chemistry is broken down because Manning isn't there.

Cam Cameron: I really hate knocking on the coaches because its also execution. But it's sad to say that I believe CC to probably the most stubborn hard-headed coach in the league. He isn't even a smidgen flexible. Seems like he makes his game plan, and sticks to it no matter the outcome, it almost seems like he is too cocky with himself, almost as if he thinks he is the master mind and can't be challenged, and if the Ravens lose, its the players fault. Has anyone heard him say he is accountable? I've never heard him say that a loss was on him. Now try imagine trying to play for a guy like that? Would you be inspired to play a great game of football knowing that you aren't allowed to adjust to the defense, and that even though you can see 100% the defense knows exactly what your doing, but you have to hope for the best and chuck the ball down there hoping for the best. I, myself would get fed up with having to run plays that are vanilla and that make my team, and myself, AND my coaches look awful. Like parents that punish you for things that you don't feel accountable for, you end up losing respect for them and don't try your best, because you don't feel the need/ worth.

Scheme: Everyone blames Flacco for not being able to beat the Cover 2. I know everyone here has had that game in their childhood, that they could not just beat, but as you progressively got older you learned to adjust to the game and play to the weakness. Now imagine your playing that game today, you know how to beat it, but the rules are you can't attack it's weakness, makes things a little bit harder right? I feel like that's the position Joe is in, I don't feel like he can't read and pick apart the Cover 2, I feel the scheme Cam puts together puts the team in the worst position to defeat it. We have all the weapons to destroy the C2, the right personal, but if they aren't utilized correctly, it's like having a race car not correctly tuned to the track. So instead of blaming Flacco for misreads, I feel like the blame should be put on Cam for not putting his players in the best position to win, and expecting someone to make the best out of a P.O.S. game plan.

Flacco is making the best of what he is given. I wouldn't expect any other QB to play better with the same scheme as Flacco has.

[PuRock]

Nope. We've seen what Joe can do when we have blocking and a good game plan. He just needs to put it all together and become more consistent. Ofcourse there is a ton of areas he needs to improve upon but fortunately there is still time.

Joe is our QB for the foreseeable future. I for one will continue to support Joe as I know the potential is still there.

[Ravenslifer]

As far as a ceiling, no I think there is still room for growth. The real question is, where will that growth lead? Guys like Jeff Garcia prove that a veteran quarterback, one with good decision making skills and football awareness, can help out a struggling team. Flacco, in theory, can get better at making decisions. But is that what we want or need from him. To be the perfect game manager quarterback? Because the last time I checked, a suffocating defense doesn't really win you Superbowls anymore. It's really become a quarterback's league, and if Joe can't be an elite quarterback, maybe we need to find someone who can be. I don't believe in all of this "ride the defense" and a game manager will carry us through. The Jets have proven that without a guy who can make plays for you consistently, you can't get the job done no matter how good your defense is.

[T3hRaven]

[quote name='Sunday QB' timestamp='1319561239' post='837266']
Look at Phillip Rivers and Drew Brees, under Cam you didn't know who they were. It wasn't until they got out from under Cam that they became elite QB's. I see the same thing happening to Joe. Until Cam is gone or Joe leaves I don't see him getting any better or given any respect.
[/quote]

I agree with this 100%. It's clear that, at the very least, Joe has hit his ceiling with Cam Cameron as his OC (and QB coach). I can't write him off completely without seeing how he performs with a competent OC, and I'd like to think history would repeat itself as it did for Brees and Rivers, but sitting here today after that loss my outlook on the future is pretty bleak.

I never thought that at this point in the season Torrey Smith, who I completely wrote off as a draft prospect, would be the one player who's impressed me.

[Guest ArmyRaven52]

[quote name='PuRock' timestamp='1319562928' post='837362']
Nope. We've seen what Joe can do when we have blocking and a good game plan. He just needs to put it all together and become more consistent. Ofcourse there is a ton of areas he needs to improve upon but fortunately there is still time.

Joe is our QB for the foreseeable future. I for one will continue to support Joe as I know the potential is still there.
[/quote]


I like your optimism Rock, but damn man. Russel still has a boat load of potential. He has all the tools Joe does, and seemingly the same weaknesses. This is getting a little ridiculous.

[bpytnjr58]

[quote name='jimmypowder' timestamp='1319560522' post='837225']
I hate to say it but Big Ben would have found a way to win that game.
[/quote]
I HATE to say it...You are probably right!

[bpytnjr58]

[quote name='Sunday QB' timestamp='1319561239' post='837266']



[size=4][font=comic sans ms, cursive]Look at Phillip Rivers and Drew Brees, under Cam you didn't know who they were. It wasn't until they got out from under Cam that they became elite QB's. I see the same thing happening to Joe. Until Cam is gone or Joe leaves I don't see him getting any better or given any respect. [/font][/size]
[/quote]
And that sir....is a true statement and 100% fact.

[Jabara]

I think Joe can still improve with proper coaching and confidence.
I know who has reached their ceiling though, Cam Cameron!

[stormie]

[quote name='Dfence4champs2052' timestamp='1319562165' post='837319']

Tell me what Bum Roethlisberger has that Joe doesn't? [/quote]


He has 4 more years of experience??

[stormie]

[url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/5536/ben-roethlisberger"][color="#225fb2"]Ben Roethlisberger[/color][/url] - Years of experience = 8
(Per ESPN)


[url="http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11252/joe-flacco"][color="#225fb2"]Joe Flacco[/color][/url] - Years of experience = 4
(Per ESPN)

Why do people keep forgetting this?

[jimmypowder]

[quote name='stormie' timestamp='1319567148' post='837571']


He has 4 more years of experience??
[/quote]

Ah,he has two rings doesn't he???

[stormie]

[quote name='jimmypowder' timestamp='1319568071' post='837627']

Ah,he has two rings doesn't he???
[/quote]

Yes, he does and in twice the amount of years.

[Dfence4champs2052]

[quote name='stormie' timestamp='1319567148' post='837571']


He has 4 more years of experience??
[/quote]


True the the real answer is heart.

[Intercepted]

[quote name='traumakings' timestamp='1319562908' post='837360']
I think most of you are forgetting alot of things, specifically:

Chemistry with Receivers: Whats it been, two years with Q? Not even one with Torrey, Doss, LaQuan. Evans is out. The TE's are still young and make valid mistakes. Chemistry plays a huge part, and if you notice around the league, all the top QB's have a developed relationship with their receiving corp. Until Joe has a unit that has gelled for 2-3 years, you can't assume he is suspect. It makes a huge difference, the connection between QB and Receiver, small things, that can lead to a first down by a small adjustment, or a TD from knowing whats on the mind of each other. Prime example is the Colts. The chemistry is broken down because Manning isn't there.

Cam Cameron: I really hate knocking on the coaches because its also execution. But it's sad to say that I believe CC to probably the most stubborn hard-headed coach in the league. He isn't even a smidgen flexible. Seems like he makes his game plan, and sticks to it no matter the outcome, it almost seems like he is too cocky with himself, almost as if he thinks he is the master mind and can't be challenged, and if the Ravens lose, its the players fault. Has anyone heard him say he is accountable? I've never heard him say that a loss was on him. Now try imagine trying to play for a guy like that? Would you be inspired to play a great game of football knowing that you aren't allowed to adjust to the defense, and that even though you can see 100% the defense knows exactly what your doing, but you have to hope for the best and chuck the ball down there hoping for the best. I, myself would get fed up with having to run plays that are vanilla and that make my team, and myself, AND my coaches look awful. Like parents that punish you for things that you don't feel accountable for, you end up losing respect for them and don't try your best, because you don't feel the need/ worth.

Scheme: Everyone blames Flacco for not being able to beat the Cover 2. I know everyone here has had that game in their childhood, that they could not just beat, but as you progressively got older you learned to adjust to the game and play to the weakness. Now imagine your playing that game today, you know how to beat it, but the rules are you can't attack it's weakness, makes things a little bit harder right? I feel like that's the position Joe is in, I don't feel like he can't read and pick apart the Cover 2, I feel the scheme Cam puts together puts the team in the worst position to defeat it. We have all the weapons to destroy the C2, the right personal, but if they aren't utilized correctly, it's like having a race car not correctly tuned to the track. So instead of blaming Flacco for misreads, I feel like the blame should be put on Cam for not putting his players in the best position to win, and expecting someone to make the best out of a P.O.S. game plan.

Flacco is making the best of what he is given. I wouldn't expect any other QB to play better with the same scheme as Flacco has.
[/quote]

That's an interesting way to look at it. I agree completely. I'm not going to write off Flacco as long as Cam Cameron is OC.

[Militant X 1]

[quote name='TreTheRaven' timestamp='1319562374' post='837329']
Oh, when I said "[i]struggled[/i]" I made it seem like [u][b]Rodgers also has problems with a bad o-line, when we all know that is not the case[/b][/u]. I thought that's what you were getting at and hence why I apologized, ha ha.
[/quote]

sometimes he does...but rarely. but..he is still able to make plays (proper quick reads and throws) to move the chains.

~Mili

[CalvinSmoke]

You know,... when's the last time we had a receiver that was wide open (not including the flats) we don't confuse coverages at all.

[traumakings]

[quote name='Militant X 1' timestamp='1319568417' post='837653']

sometimes he does...but rarely. but..he is still able to make plays (proper quick reads and throws) to move the chains.

~Mili
[/quote]

How do you make a proper read/ quick throw when you don't know if your receiver is going to stop his route, break his route, continue the route. I'm specifying when a play breaks down. You gotta have that trust and chemistry to know what the other person is going to do. That's what makes A-R so good. He can have the play break down, but knows his receivers enough to make a throw that looks wild on the outside view, but in the inside, its very much scripted.

[SteelerStone]

Not trying to troll but I watched two horrible QB's last night! As a Steeler fan, we all know who I was rooting for but WOW! Gabbert plays like he's scared to death....throwing while backpeddling on virtually every throw. And just when people start thinking he can manage the game, Flacco just keeps laying eggs.

[Milton145]

I was wondering this just the other day if Joe really has reached his ceiling..and I think he has tbh. Like before I would defend him as much as I could but after what's happened this season, you honestly can't without lying to yourself. I'm a Ravens fan through and through so of course I want Flacco to get better...but I don't think he will ever get remarkably better.

[traumakings]

[quote name='SteelerStone' timestamp='1319568889' post='837682']Not trying to troll but I watched two horrible QB's last night! As a Steeler fan, we all know who I was rooting for but WOW! Gabbert plays like he's scared to death....throwing while backpeddling on virtually every throw. And just when people start thinking he can manage the game, Flacco just keeps laying eggs.[/quote]Yeah, he laid a real big egg on the Steelers to the tune of 224 yds and 3 TDS.

[izvoodoo]

No, players get better. Always, they rarely truly cap. And usually a QB doesn't reach his prime til 7 years.

I'd rather have flacco than freeman or Stafford.

[SteelerStone]

[quote name='traumakings' timestamp='1319569063' post='837690']
Yeah, he laid a real big egg on the Steelers to the tune of 224 yds and 3 TDS.
[/quote]
Can't deny that! But quite frankly, I would rather win wars than battles...LOL

[traumakings]

[quote name='SteelerStone' timestamp='1319569388' post='837705']
Can't deny that! But quite frankly, I would rather win wars than battles...LOL
[/quote]
4-2 is pretty indicative of the " war " being won.

For example, the Nazis won some early battles in WWII, but we all know what eventually happened.

And yes, I just compared the Steelers to Nazis.

[SteelerStone]

[quote name='traumakings' timestamp='1319569973' post='837735']
4-2 is pretty indicative of the " war " being won.

For example, the Nazis won some early battles in WWII, but we all know what eventually happened.

And yes, I just compared the Steelers to Nazis.
[/quote]

A better example?............The Steelers have played in three superbowls in the last six years and they are in the same division as the Ravens;)

[traumakings]

[quote name='SteelerStone' timestamp='1319570416' post='837756']

A better example?............The Steelers have played in three superbowls in the last six years and they are in the same division as the Ravens;)
[/quote]
How many were won?

General Custer won alot of battles too. But eventually he got ...uhm...relinquished of his stature by a lesser rival.

[jaege]

[quote name='traumakings' timestamp='1319571715' post='837804']
How many were won?

General Custer won alot of battles too. But eventually he got ...uhm...relinquished of his stature by a lesser rival.
[/quote]

Steelerstone is, for the most part, right. Flacco looked worse than Gabbert out there. And thrashing (it was a thrashing and very satisfying too) the Steelers, they can still win the division and move onto our SB. The way we played last night, we won't even get a wildcard.

Hate him all you like (I do) Ben would have won that game.

[traumakings]

[quote name='jaege' timestamp='1319572598' post='837858']

Steelerstone is, for the most part, right. Flacco looked worse than Gabbert out there. And thrashing (it was a thrashing and very satisfying too) the Steelers, they can still win the division and move onto our SB. The way we played last night, we won't even get a wildcard.

Hate him all you like (I do) Ben would have won that game.
[/quote]
Do you believe that a game like that will be played again?

[jaege]

[quote name='traumakings' timestamp='1319572974' post='837888']
Do you believe that a game like that will be played again?
[/quote]


That bad, it is hard to imagine, but Sunday I would have said that a Ravens vs Jags game that bad was logically, and rationally impossible. With this team, honestly, another bad one, on line with the Titans game, yes, I can easily see it.